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prism

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And when Jesus takes away our sin, what does that mean?

And what's with FAIL! when you don't want to be talked down to? Isn't that hypocritical? Or do you believe the earth revolves around you.
But you said His blood takes away the desire to sin.
When I asked for Scriptural support none of the verses you offered mentioned either blood or desire. That's why I counted it as a fail.
 
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prism

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I wrote "The nature of the new birth/new man is not wanting to sin."

and you replied...

On the contrary:

Paul wrote in Romans chapter 7, that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between the flesh and the Spirit - in choosing to walk in the flesh and live in sin - or choose to walk after the Holy Spirit (that now dwells in us) - and Paul warns us in Romans 8, that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

Just because there is a conflict as layed out in Rom 7, that does not negate our desire to be pleasing to the Lord. Even Paul said, "For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate." Rom 7:15
 

marks

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I remember you said that before, but I see it as Jesus showing us the deeper commandments of the New Covenant. John 15:10.
None the less . . .

We forgive BECAUSE we've been forgiven, not to receive forgiveness.

Ephesians 4:32 KJV
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

We forgive others, having already been forgiven by God.

Again . . . Jesus taught the Law to those who were under the Law. If you notice, the Sermon on the Mount is given concluding all to be guilty, as Jesus shows true observance to be in the heart, and not just the actions.

Jesus taught in full accord with the Law, that unless you keep it even into the heart, you will not be forgiven, but will be condemned.

The commandments of the New Covenant are two . . . trust Jesus, and love others. If we do those two, everything will be done that should be done.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Well, I thought ignoring the hurt would be enough. It took a year, but I finally called and left word with his mother-in-law that I forgive him.
Some things take time. I think the message of Scripture is that we are ALL of us a work in process, and will be for the rest of our lives.

Much love!
 
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BloodBought 1953

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Well, I thought ignoring the hurt would be enough. It took a year, but I finally called and left word with his mother-in-law that I forgive him.


I suppose that during that one year period when you failed to forgive, had you died , you would have been doomed to the fires of Hell....

“ By The Works Of The Law, no Flesh shall be Justified .....”

For all your effort, you are simply barking up the wrong tree....

And once again, “ Miss Perfect”——- you gotta husband or a close friend I can talk to for three minutes.....we will see how “ perfect” you are......
 

Curtis

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I wrote "The nature of the new birth/new man is not wanting to sin."

and you replied...



Just because there is a conflict as layed out in Rom 7, that does not negate our desire to be pleasing to the Lord. Even Paul said, "For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate." Rom 7:15


Romans 7 is used as an excuse to sin, claiming even the apostle Paul sinned regularly, but his dilemma regarding the conflict between sinning and living righteously, with Romans 8 being the answer.

Paul explains in Romans chapters 7 and 8, that after we have been saved there is a continuing conflict between our flesh and our Spirit - between temptation to walk in the flesh and live in sin - and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us: and the apostle Paul warns us in Romans 8, that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Romans 8. starts off with a conditional statement:


Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.


Half of verse one is frequently quoted, absent the qualifier - that it’s those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit who are in Christ Jesus and have no condemnation.


Romans 8 then goes on to explain the consequences of letting our flesh win the conflict between our Spirit and flesh:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Romans 8:6, above, is talking about spiritual death - not physical death - as proven by the prodigal son, who died spiritually while he was out in the world sinning:


In the prodigal son story, the father represents God, thus the son represents believers who are Gods sons.


He’s already a son when the story starts.


He leaves the father to live in sin


When he returns to the father in repentance, the father says: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD, but is now alive AGAIN, he WAS LOST, but now IS FOUND.


Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother *was dead*, and is *alive again*; and *was lost*, and *is found*.


He obviously wasn’t dead physically and resurrected.


How then was he dead?


He was dead in his sins.


Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened,who WERE DEAD in *trespasses and sins*


Thus the son was alive, left his Father to live a sinful life, became DEAD in his sins, then returned in repentance, and became alive AGAIN.


Therefore Romans 8:6 contains a warning to the brethren not to live carnally, after the flesh, or they will die spiritually, as the prodigal Son did.


And Verse 8:7 of Romans warns us that believers having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


So does James:


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY, and the verse that follows proves the Jas 4:4 warning above, is to believers, not the unsaved:


The next verse is irrefutably proves that warnings against living a lifestyle of sexual sins is to the BRETHREN:


1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, YOUR SANCTIFICATION: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

1Th 4:4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,

1Th 4:5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;

1Th 4:6 that no one transgress and wrong his BROTHER in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly WARNED you.

1Th 4:7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness.

1Th 4:8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.


Our sanctification is to abstain from sexual immorality, verse 3, above.


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.
 
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CharismaticLady

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But you said His blood takes away the desire to sin.
When I asked for Scriptural support none of the verses you offered mentioned either blood or desire. That's why I counted it as a fail.

What is our nature? It is our instinct - our desires. When we are born again, the desire to sin is gone. So I think I asked you what is taken away when Jesus takes away our sin? Do you believe the desire to sin is still there? What kind of freedom from sin is that?
 

CharismaticLady

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None the less . . .

We forgive BECAUSE we've been forgiven, not to receive forgiveness.

Ephesians 4:32 KJV
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

We forgive others, having already been forgiven by God.

Again . . . Jesus taught the Law to those who were under the Law. If you notice, the Sermon on the Mount is given concluding all to be guilty, as Jesus shows true observance to be in the heart, and not just the actions.

Jesus taught in full accord with the Law, that unless you keep it even into the heart, you will not be forgiven, but will be condemned.

The commandments of the New Covenant are two . . . trust Jesus, and love others. If we do those two, everything will be done that should be done.

Much love!

That's fine. Both are right.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Some things take time. I think the message of Scripture is that we are ALL of us a work in process, and will be for the rest of our lives.

Much love!

Well I've been at this longer than you have, so it should be easier for me.
I suppose that during that one year period when you failed to forgive, had you died , you would have been doomed to the fires of Hell....

“ By The Works Of The Law, no Flesh shall be Justified .....”

For all your effort, you are simply barking up the wrong tree....

And once again, “ Miss Perfect”——- you gotta husband or a close friend I can talk to for three minutes.....we will see how “ perfect” you are......

Not worth answering. Why can't you at least act like a Christian? Is really that impossible for you?
 
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prism

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Romans 7 is used as an excuse to sin, claiming even the apostle Paul sinned regularly, but his dilemma regarding the conflict between sinning and living righteously, with Romans 8 being the answer.
People may use it as an excuse to sin, but that doesn't make it any less true.
Basically agree with the rest.
 

prism

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What is our nature? It is our instinct - our desires. When we are born again, the desire to sin is gone. So I think I asked you what is taken away when Jesus takes away our sin? Do you believe the desire to sin is still there? What kind of freedom from sin is that?
Ok you have no Scriptural reference for your previous claim, just logical deductions.
Yes when we are born again we have a new heart but yhe carcass of the dying old man follows us to the grave.
2 Corinthians 4:10 (NASB) always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
 
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Curtis

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People may use it as an excuse to sin, but that doesn't make it any less true.
Basically agree with the rest.

Let’s see: Peter said some people wrest Paul’s writings to their own destruction - scripture warns about doctrines of devils - xxxxxxxxx- yet Paul specifically and repeatedly warns in his epistles, not to be deceived by anyone telling us we can live in sin, and make it to heaven.

In one passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that your - BRETHREN.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES (such as those who DEFRAUD their brethren, verse 8) nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, SHALL INHERIT the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.


Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this YE know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with VAIN words: for because of THESE things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

I’ll stick with those clear warnings, over misinterpreted hyper-grace proof texts.
 
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Curtis

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What is our nature? It is our instinct - our desires. When we are born again, the desire to sin is gone. So I think I asked you what is taken away when Jesus takes away our sin? Do you believe the desire to sin is still there? What kind of freedom from sin is that?

I take it you’ve never read Romans chapters 7 and 8, which go together.

Paul explains in Romans chapters 7 and 8, that after we have been saved there is a continuing conflict between our flesh and our Spirit - between temptation to walk in the flesh and live in sin - and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us: and the apostle Paul warns us in Romans 8, that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), result in spiritual death.
 

prism

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Let’s see: Peter said some people wrest Paul’s writings to their own destruction - scripture warns about doctrines of devils - you claim God doesn’t care about your sins, so you can sin all you want, with no eternal penalty - yet Paul specifically and repeatedly warns in his epistles, not to be deceived by anyone telling us we can live in sin, and make it to heaven.
This is insane. First of all the context of Peter’s statement in 2Pet 3 is prophecy, not justification or sanctification.
Secondly, you are playing on the side of the accuser bearing false witness, accusing me of things I never ever said by saying this…”you claim God doesn’t care about your sins, so you can sin all you want, with no eternal penalty”. This is utter falsehood (unless you can quote me with the post #). It’s people like you who spew falsehoods about others that make Christian forums a laughing stock amongst seekers, besides it’s breaking the 9th Commandment ““You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”
If you can’t produce proof that I said such nonsense then you sir, will be on my ignore list, seeing I am wasting my time.
 
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BloodBought 1953

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Well I've been at this longer than you have, so it should be easier for me.


Not worth answering. Why can't you at least act like a Christian? Is really that impossible for you?



I *DO* Act like a Christian ....Christians like myself, as opposed to Religious people like you ( religion being the opposite of Christianity—- that is why I am so UNreligious ) Are told to REBUKE those that preach a “ different” gospel......So Called Gospels That are “ False and Perverted” , according to Paul.

Your False Gospel Of “Sinless Perfection” has you “ Fallen From Grace” and you don’t even realize it....The “ Christian” thing to do is to try to stamp out this type of Hog - Wash before it spreads to Newbies....

“A little Leaven Leavenith the whole batch” —- Please Stop spreading Leaven....is that impossible for you?
 
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Heart2Soul

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1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
We are the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus....so this scripture refers to the unsaved....
“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
— 2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
 

Curtis

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We are the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus....so this scripture refers to the unsaved....
“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
— 2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
Absolutely false. Paul’s warnings are to the brethren.

As the scripture itself clearly says.


In fact Paul says our SANCTIFICATION is avoiding sexual sins.

The next verse is irrefutably proves that warnings against living a lifestyle of sexual sins is to the BRETHREN:


1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, YOUR SANCTIFICATION: that you abstain from sexual immorality;

1Th 4:4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,

1Th 4:5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;

1Th 4:6 that no one transgress and wrong his BROTHER in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly WARNED you.

1Th 4:7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness.

1Th 4:8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.


Our sanctification is to abstain from sexual immorality, verse 3, above.
 

Curtis

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This is insane. First of all the context of Peter’s statement in 2Pet 3 is prophecy, not justification or sanctification.
Secondly, you are playing on the side of the accuser bearing false witness, accusing me of things I never ever said by saying this…”you claim God doesn’t care about your sins, so you can sin all you want, with no eternal penalty”. This is utter falsehood (unless you can quote me with the post #). It’s people like you who spew falsehoods about others that make Christian forums a laughing stock amongst seekers, besides it’s breaking the 9th Commandment ““You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”
If you can’t produce proof that I said such nonsense then you sir, will be on my ignore list, seeing I am wasting my time.

Here’s who Paul wrote to at Corinth - it’s not to the unsaved, not to mention 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is clearly a warning to the BRETHREN:

1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Here’s the clear and unequivocal warning TO THE BRETHREN

1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD (steal from) and that your BRETHREN.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES (such as those who DEFRAUD their brethren, verse 8) nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Explain how wresting Paul’s prophecies; could result in their destruction? That makes no sense whatsoever.

The fact is that hyper grace wrests Paul’s writings to the destruction of those who are deceived into thinking they can sin however much and as often they want, with no repentance, but then end up in hell.

And it’s the doctrine of demons, taught by teachers that those with itching ears love to hear, because it justifies living a sinful lifestyle.

What’s peters assessment of end time events to come, in 1 Peter 3?

This:
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,

And he went on to say:

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Peter says nothing about it being prophecy that some wrest to their own destruction- which would be nonsense - twisting doctrine about the rapture - Paul’s prophecies - would not be a salvation issue.

But living sinfully as a believer IS a salvational issue.

You said this: This is utter falsehood (unless you can quote me with the post #). It’s people like you who spew falsehoods about others that make Christian forums a laughing stock amongst seekers.

What I quoted was what hyper grace teachers teach - thus since you espouse that theology, you also must believe that a believer can sin all they want, and God doesn’t care, nor will He hold it against you.

 
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Curtis

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I *DO* Act like a Christian ....Christians like myself, as opposed to Religious people like you ( religion being the opposite of Christianity—- that is why I am so UNreligious ) Are told to REBUKE those that preach a “ different” gospel......So Called Gospels That are “ False and Perverted” , according to Paul.

Your False Gospel Of “Sinless Perfection” has you “ Fallen From Grace” and you don’t even realize it....The “ Christian” thing to do is to try to stamp out this type of Hog - Wash before it spreads to Newbies....

“A little Leaven Leavenith the whole batch” —- Please Stop spreading Leaven....is that impossible for you?

Who has the false gospel of sinless perfection? The hyper grace camp, who claims your spirit is perfect and cannot sin, thus sins done by the body, don’t matter, and aren’t counted as sin, making them in effect, perfectly sinless.

Whereas Christianity is no one’s perfect, our sins as believers do count, and we must repent of them to have them forgiven.

Per 1 John 1:9 written to the brethren by John.