- Aug 25, 2010
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Christina: to be totally open about my position: I am Pre-Wrath.
1. Pre-Trib hopes to escape the one 'seven' which they mis-label as the "Tribulation Period." I don't think that is the case. While they take a literal approach to Bible interpretation, all of their "proof" verses have to be taken figuratively. Meanwhile, they have to jump through hoops of exegesis in order to put together an eschatology which escapes those passges and verses which point to our being in the one 'seven.' As a belief structure, theirs is the most comfortable, and it is the most numerous among Christians.
2.Post-Trib is mostly "last day" of the one 'seven' which I think is incorrect. We cannot know the Day Jesus comes. As I delineated with the start of this thread, I can show Biblically why the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath is not the Last Trumpet calling the Church. There are two Trumpets for the Church, the First and the Last; the First Trumpet sounded nearly 2000 years ago on the Festival of First Fruits and the Holy Spirit swept through the believers assembled with the Apostles. Paul connected the "last day" of the Church Age to the Festival of Trumpets which is the Returning Anew of Rosh ha-Shanah. There are seven Trumpets which announce the desolations God has decreed. We are not to incur God's Wrath. I posted the verses which establish this fact. The seventh Trumpet is never called the "Last Trumpet" by John. John knows his Trumpets and he, as a Jew, knows the Last Trumpet, as a named Trumpet, begins the Festival of Trumpets which includes many different kinds of Trumpets over two days of one single Holy Day.
3. I have a very low opinion of Preterism, both full and partial. Not only can they not show what has been foretold to come to pass is past, what they point to as the worst time ever wasn't.
4. Amillennialism has to literally ignore whole books and passages in the Bible. One book I have from an Amillennial author started out by throwing out the books of Daniel and Revelation. Concentrating solely on the Epistles, he made the argument that we are living in the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God, as a distinct time or place is not defined in the Bible... I know, I've studied it. I don't think we can peg it to a date like we can July 2nd (not the 4th) 1776, or a place like America or even Israel. The Kingdom of God exists in Heaven, within the believer, and it will be done on Earth in the Millennium - somewhat, as man rebels once more against God at the end if I read Revelation literally. The Kingdom of God is not yet, and yet is eternal and already exists. I just don't think we're winning the world for Christ now. Who's going to do that? The Pope?
5. I think Post-Millennialists are starry-eyed idealists. I do not think we can usher in God's Kingdom. We are not that powerful.
6. Historic Pre-Millennialism is close to the mark, but we literally don't have enough information on it since most of the writings are so ancient. Furthermore, you can't "argue" with them. I do not think the first take is absolutely the best, but I do think they got a lot of stuff right which is amazing by itself. However, none of the second through fourth century Church leaders and writers had a clue that there would ever be anything like the Industrial Revolution, how Capitalism would come to rule the world, the rise of nationalism, or even that immigration policies would degrade to the point that nations would no longer be comprised of a single nationality. They certainly had no idea that a country like America would ever be formed which threw away all class lines, much less even knew of a land beyond the horizon of the Mediterranean world.
Pre-Wrath is post Great Tribulation. We (you and I) share that aspect of our eschatology. Pre-Wrath also has the Rapture before God's Wrath, so we escape that aspect of the one 'seven' which is a little like Pre-Trib, but not much. I did not start out Pre-Wrath, but I ended up there as a result of my looking at the sequence-of-events laid out in the major linear prophetic narratives.
For us to pin what the "falling away" is, goes back to my post about the Greek word and it is anything which goes against the Laws God has established, the first being worship. Not only is the 'ruler who will come' the anti-Christ, the Bible teaches us that there are many kinds of anti-Christs. In that regard, whatever you place your faith in, if it is not the God of Isaac and Abraham, serves as an anti-Christ. This then includes such diverse things as: technology, being "green," socialism, Marxism, Capitalism, 401-K's, materialism or anything anyone trusts to "save" them. It can also include putting your faith in politicians or either stripe; and plenty of people adopted a worshipping adoration towards Barack Hussein Obama, and he, much like the 'ruler who will come' will do, actually promoted a messianic portrayal of himself. All that nonsense made me want to puke.
Now as to various Rapture doctrines, I will always go back to the Bible and I will rest with my analysis as providing not a date, but just a general sequence-of-events which allows me to know when the time is ripe. As of right now, the one 'seven' hasn't started: there is no Temple. However, I have been watching, and I know thing like the Quartet and the Roadmap are seeking to start the one 'seven' covenant. I also know the Sanhedrin has re-instituted itself and they are actively stockpiling materials and objects so as to resume Temple sacrifice on the Temple Mount.
So I think we are on the cusp, but I can't tell when the one 'seven' will start. Even then, we're in for a long road until Jesus returns anew with the Last Trumpet, which as incredible as it may sound to you; sounds before the first Trumpet of God's Wrath. We are "outta here" at the sixth Seal Day of the Lord - whenever that comes after the midpoint abomination and Great Tribulation.
Mark
1. Pre-Trib hopes to escape the one 'seven' which they mis-label as the "Tribulation Period." I don't think that is the case. While they take a literal approach to Bible interpretation, all of their "proof" verses have to be taken figuratively. Meanwhile, they have to jump through hoops of exegesis in order to put together an eschatology which escapes those passges and verses which point to our being in the one 'seven.' As a belief structure, theirs is the most comfortable, and it is the most numerous among Christians.
2.Post-Trib is mostly "last day" of the one 'seven' which I think is incorrect. We cannot know the Day Jesus comes. As I delineated with the start of this thread, I can show Biblically why the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath is not the Last Trumpet calling the Church. There are two Trumpets for the Church, the First and the Last; the First Trumpet sounded nearly 2000 years ago on the Festival of First Fruits and the Holy Spirit swept through the believers assembled with the Apostles. Paul connected the "last day" of the Church Age to the Festival of Trumpets which is the Returning Anew of Rosh ha-Shanah. There are seven Trumpets which announce the desolations God has decreed. We are not to incur God's Wrath. I posted the verses which establish this fact. The seventh Trumpet is never called the "Last Trumpet" by John. John knows his Trumpets and he, as a Jew, knows the Last Trumpet, as a named Trumpet, begins the Festival of Trumpets which includes many different kinds of Trumpets over two days of one single Holy Day.
3. I have a very low opinion of Preterism, both full and partial. Not only can they not show what has been foretold to come to pass is past, what they point to as the worst time ever wasn't.
4. Amillennialism has to literally ignore whole books and passages in the Bible. One book I have from an Amillennial author started out by throwing out the books of Daniel and Revelation. Concentrating solely on the Epistles, he made the argument that we are living in the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God, as a distinct time or place is not defined in the Bible... I know, I've studied it. I don't think we can peg it to a date like we can July 2nd (not the 4th) 1776, or a place like America or even Israel. The Kingdom of God exists in Heaven, within the believer, and it will be done on Earth in the Millennium - somewhat, as man rebels once more against God at the end if I read Revelation literally. The Kingdom of God is not yet, and yet is eternal and already exists. I just don't think we're winning the world for Christ now. Who's going to do that? The Pope?
5. I think Post-Millennialists are starry-eyed idealists. I do not think we can usher in God's Kingdom. We are not that powerful.
6. Historic Pre-Millennialism is close to the mark, but we literally don't have enough information on it since most of the writings are so ancient. Furthermore, you can't "argue" with them. I do not think the first take is absolutely the best, but I do think they got a lot of stuff right which is amazing by itself. However, none of the second through fourth century Church leaders and writers had a clue that there would ever be anything like the Industrial Revolution, how Capitalism would come to rule the world, the rise of nationalism, or even that immigration policies would degrade to the point that nations would no longer be comprised of a single nationality. They certainly had no idea that a country like America would ever be formed which threw away all class lines, much less even knew of a land beyond the horizon of the Mediterranean world.
Pre-Wrath is post Great Tribulation. We (you and I) share that aspect of our eschatology. Pre-Wrath also has the Rapture before God's Wrath, so we escape that aspect of the one 'seven' which is a little like Pre-Trib, but not much. I did not start out Pre-Wrath, but I ended up there as a result of my looking at the sequence-of-events laid out in the major linear prophetic narratives.
For us to pin what the "falling away" is, goes back to my post about the Greek word and it is anything which goes against the Laws God has established, the first being worship. Not only is the 'ruler who will come' the anti-Christ, the Bible teaches us that there are many kinds of anti-Christs. In that regard, whatever you place your faith in, if it is not the God of Isaac and Abraham, serves as an anti-Christ. This then includes such diverse things as: technology, being "green," socialism, Marxism, Capitalism, 401-K's, materialism or anything anyone trusts to "save" them. It can also include putting your faith in politicians or either stripe; and plenty of people adopted a worshipping adoration towards Barack Hussein Obama, and he, much like the 'ruler who will come' will do, actually promoted a messianic portrayal of himself. All that nonsense made me want to puke.
Now as to various Rapture doctrines, I will always go back to the Bible and I will rest with my analysis as providing not a date, but just a general sequence-of-events which allows me to know when the time is ripe. As of right now, the one 'seven' hasn't started: there is no Temple. However, I have been watching, and I know thing like the Quartet and the Roadmap are seeking to start the one 'seven' covenant. I also know the Sanhedrin has re-instituted itself and they are actively stockpiling materials and objects so as to resume Temple sacrifice on the Temple Mount.
So I think we are on the cusp, but I can't tell when the one 'seven' will start. Even then, we're in for a long road until Jesus returns anew with the Last Trumpet, which as incredible as it may sound to you; sounds before the first Trumpet of God's Wrath. We are "outta here" at the sixth Seal Day of the Lord - whenever that comes after the midpoint abomination and Great Tribulation.
Mark