Agreed Marks, a "works" salvation. Totally. Although, I too have started to say the Lords Prayer as a new local body I have started going to recites this every Sunday and I do like the prayer as, it's been with me since childhood. I DO see that Jesus commands us to pray this particular prayer everyday or...to Hell you go! Guess there WILL be a lot of us there in that case...
marks, Nancy,
So reading the Bible and reciting the Lord's prayer is "works"???
So yes, I do come from years of doing my own Bible studying on my own, without any Denominational influence. So I am outside the prevailing herd-mentality out there. And yes God talks to all of us, you don't have to a prophet. This new truth revealed to me by God, is a key point that, yes, was missed by many for hundreds of years. If there is another one like me, doing independent Bible studying, I think we'd be able to see eye-to-eye. But with the rest, it has been drilled into them by many churches for all these years. That the Bread is the actual bread we eat, not the body of Jesus. Even if we let this aside for a moment. What about the next statement in Jesus' prayer saying "forgive us our sins" in the context of "this day"? Why would He want us to ask for forgiveness of sins every day? You want to complain about that? complain to Jesus, not to me.
Please consider these explanations as well, all with Biblical references. I keep reminding of the Biblical references and I keep getting replies from Nancy, for example, calling it "works". But the Bible said so, not me. Open your hearts, and give this due diligence (read it carefully not just scan it quickly) before replying with another "you must be crazy" reply:
Born-Again / Saved?
If you're not maturing spiritually, you may no longer be born-again. The Bible said that, not me.
Here's the order of our spiritual transformation (Biblical references below):
1. Birth of the flesh, first birth.
2. Birth of the spirit, born-again / saved.
3. Spiritual maturity.
Many people lack the 3rd item, spiritual maturity. Simply because, most churches don't preach it. But it's our eternal destination we're talking about; there will not be a 2nd chance if we miss it here! So please pay close attention to the points below.
There are many references in the Bible about our need to mature spiritually in order to remain "saved". Many churches will tell you, you "cannot possibly become unsaved - once saved, always saved". The truth is, the Bible says otherwise. It says you can become unsaved:
John 15:1-7:
“1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Notes: After becoming a branch on the Vine (becoming born-again), if no spiritual maturity over time, you may wither and die (spiritually). To remain "saved" we have to remain in Jesus, and Him in us (by reciting the Lord's Prayer daily and meaning it correctly).
Luke 13:6-9:
6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”
Notes: God is patient, and waits a long time before giving up on you. But He would give up on you eventually if no spiritual maturity. But careful, Jesus warns us in other parables about "how long God waits for you", example in Matthew 25:1-13.
Matthew 25:14-30:
14 “For it is just like a man about to go on a journey. He called his own servants and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another two talents, and to another one talent, depending on each one’s ability. Then he went on a journey. Immediately 16 the man who had received five talents went, put them to work, and earned five more. 17 In the same way the man with two earned two more. 18 But the man who had received one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground, and hid his master’s money.
19 “After a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five talents approached, presented five more talents, and said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. See, I’ve earned five more talents.’
21 “His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You were faithful over a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Share your master’s joy.’
22 “The man with two talents also approached. He said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. See, I’ve earned two more talents.’
23 “His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You were faithful over a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Share your master’s joy.’
24 “The man who had received one talent also approached and said, ‘Master, I know you. You’re a harsh man, reaping where you haven’t sown and gathering where you haven’t scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went off and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’
26 “His master replied to him, ‘You evil, lazy servant! If you knew that I reap where I haven’t sown and gather where I haven’t scattered, 27 then you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and I would have received my money back with interest when I returned.
28 “‘So take the talent from him and give it to the one who has ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have more than enough. But from the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 30 And throw this good-for-nothing servant into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Notes: "Talent" here is knowledge of God. We are called to multiply the "talents" that God gives us - meaning increase our knowledge of God. The servant who did not multiply his talent in the parable, was called "evil & lazy", and was cast out - "became unsaved".
Both "fruits" and "talents" in these 3 references mean the same: "spiritual maturity".
Obviously Jesus is eluding to something very important we need to do here to maintain our "saved" status. Definitely not "works" but obedience to grow spiritually. Although He does clarify that God is very patient with us and does not quickly give up on us. But the fact remains, we have a duty to produce fruit / multiply talents. How do we do that? How do we mature spiritually?
- Read the Bible always. God is in these Scriptures. This is how we "seek Him" and get to know Him. The more we read, the more He reveals Himself to us. And this new knowledge we gain, is the fruit production.
- Pray the Lord's Prayer daily, and mean it correctly - the daily Bread is the Bread of life / the body of Jesus. So that we're always in perfect fellowship with God. This fulfils Jesus' desire for us to remain in Him, and Him in us. And thus equates to healthy branches.
In todays 1st-world-countries, most people are living in luxury with plenty of resources and spare time available to them to multiply their "talents". There is no excuse, except laziness. Relying on the church for our spiritual needs is not it in today's churches. In most churches today, human-nature have taken over, and they veered off the path of the original Christian church created by the disciples of Jesus when they were truly filled by the Holy Spirit.
