The Narrow Way
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Hi Johnny,
The questions Strat are asking are valid for anyone who has come out of a cult, or even just someone coming out of the world.
The questions Strat are asking are valid for anyone who has come out of a cult, or even just someone coming out of the world.
He hasn't done that! He is trying to find out how far y'all who have a strong opinion about how Christians should live their lives, are prepared to go in telling others what to do to be 'right' in their walk with God.
Maybe there is an impasse if the answer to his questions is always going to be 'seek the Lord'. And who knows, maybe that's what he does. :huh:
There are always going to be a great many unknowns about one another while writing online, if we are to obey the Lord in certain ways. If we can accept that, perhaps we'll stop focusing on what men might do and men might be thinking. Heb 4:13
I pondered over God's perseverance with me over quite a few years, not for a moment thinking that I am some special chosen one. I know that I'm not. Gradually it dawned on me that others who are happy to live to themselves, with themselves, rather than to God, with God, had also made choices; only their choices were different. We cannot take responsibility for other people's choices. They have to do that for themselves every day. All we can do is encourage the best for them eternally. After that, like Paul, move on. (Of course the obvious thing once one sees it, is to give everything to the Lord and rest in His goodness, but one's definition of 'goodness' might take a knock, if worldly standards are the guage.)
Our opinion? It is not MY opinion. How far should we go to be a disciple?
Jesus was asked how can a person receive eternal life? He said go sell all your possessions. Those are not my words. People will ask if I have done this, it doesn't matter, you will stand before God as well as I. What does it matter what I do or don't do. I can tell you we've given away cars to people, you wouldn't believe it anyway. That we've been isolated from family and friends, it won't really matter, everone of us will have to make an account.
So you are telling me we shouldn't direct people to the Lord in these matters? Are you telling me what I think overrides God's will in someone's life? Scripture has been provided, it's just people are more interested in the opinion of man then what God has to say about being a disciple.
Or we can see what the bible says in these matters and stop pretending it means something else.
Good point!
Prentis
New Member
Well said.
When we are always stuck on whether 'it's a salvation issue' or not, we only reveal that we are looking to save our won lives. If we are to call ourselves disciples, we must not have this attitude... Rather we are looking to give, looking to see what God wants us to sacrifice. This is the extravagant response God hopes to see when he loves extravagantly! He does so because he loves us, but also in hope that we would learn, and become like him.... That we would love the same way.
If men cannot do it... That's fine. But we are not here to discuss how far most men go. We are here to discuss the standard of a disciple, what God calls us to... And the faith that eventually brings the presence and visitation of God. God is looking for a people who would love as he loves, who is willing to sacrifice like he is, who has faith like Abraham... When he finds such a people, he comes and lives among them, because there he is at home.
There is no issue with people not measuring up to this standard. The issue is that Christendom, evangelicalism desires to claim the promises of God for his people without the sacrifice it takes to be his people... Because of this conflict of interest, they raise themselves up against the truth, because when the standard of God is preached, it shows how far we must go to inherit the promises made to the saints... They want the promises, they don't want the sacrifice!
A humble admittance of the fact we do not fulfill the standard is good... It is honest, and it is right before the Lord.... It is even righteous. We call a spade a spade! But when we seek to lower the standard or destroy it so that we can have the promises.... We become enemies of the cross... This is what evangelicalism typically does.
yes here it is but rejected and unacceptable to most - via google search box type in [Paul Washer - the shocking message ] -winc
Hi Johnny,
Please note what you (correctly) wrote in the line above: 'Jesus was asked'..... 'He said'....
In other words, a person who seeks the Lord is opening himself up to the Lord's answer. If he seeks the Lord until he knows he's heard from the Lord, the Lord has now discharged His promise to answer our cries, and the onus is back on the seeker to obey the Lord's word.
In the example you used, it seems the seeker had a suspicion that he was not in line for eternal life; in his heart and soul he knew he was in trouble, and it is quite possible he knew exactly what his problem was.... idolatry. His heart was in love with his possessions rather than God. He was breaking the first commandment. The other commandments, you will notice, Jesus (kindly) began reciting from half way down the list. This was Jesus' way of sparing his public blushes, and the man could honestly say he'd kept all the commandments Jesus had mentioned. Then Jesus, knowing his real state of heart, told him how to start keeping the first commandment. This radical action would deliver the young man's heart from bondage. Jesus' advice was a step beyond that to the Hebrews to leave Egypt. This time, the emphasis was on Egypt leaving the man's heart.
I've met a Christian whose spiritual life has been severely strained by the prosperity gospel and the American Dream. Jesus said, 'It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God' Matt 19:24
I realise that under the New Covenant we are working with a significantly different set of parameters, in that Jesus gave His whole life, and the least we can do is give our whole lives back to Him Romans 12:1 for the purpose of being transformed by the renewing of our minds. This is quite similar to the meaning of Jesus' response to the rich young man. The principle at work in Jesus' words to the young man, was that he should be delivered from slavery to the sin to which he was in bondage. John 8:34. In the New Covenant this is the goal - that we should not serve sin, but we should serve a new Master with all our hearts (souls, minds and strength). God will lead us through the issues which pertain to us personally, in the order which He knows is best for us. And He has an incredible way of working all things together for good to us and those around us, as we respond to His call and become engaged in His purposes.
It does matter whether we've received and obeyed God's word to our own heart, but that may look different from another brother's obedience. We are not to be thrown off track by that difference, but rather, to be faithful to His word to us, in our hearts. John 21:21, 22.
I do believe it. You are not the first people to have given away cars!
You are not the first to experience this either. :mellow:
Some things on earth do not matter in the light of eternity, but, doing the will of the Father does matter in the light of eternity. Matt 7:21
Here are two hymns, which speak of the kind of separation from the world which you have made. Be blessed. :)
1 Brethren in Christ, and well-beloved,
To Jesus and his servants dear,
Enter and show yourselves approved;
Enter, and find that God is here.
2 Welcome from earth: lo, the right hand
Of fellowship to you we give!
With open hearts and hands we stand,
And you in Jesu's name receive.
3 Say, are your hearts resolved as ours?
Then let them burn with sacred love;
Then let them taste the heavenly powers,
Partakers of the joys above.
4 Jesu, attend thyself reveal!
Are we not met in thy great name?
Thee in the midst we wait to feel,
We wait to catch the spreading flame.
5 Thou God that answerest by fire,
The Spirit of burning now impart;
And let the flames of pure desire
Rise from the altar of our heart.
6 Truly our fellowship below
With thee and with the Father is;
In thee eternal life we know,
And heaven's unutterable bliss.
7 In part we only know thee here,
But wait thy coming from above;
And we shall then behold thee near,
And we shall all be lost in love.
(Tune: Hampstead (Smallwood))
1 Happy the souls that first believed,
To Jesus and each other cleaved,
Joined by the unction from above
In mystic fellowship of love.
2 Meek, simple followers of the Lamb,
They lived, and spake, and thought the same;
They joyfully conspired to raise
Their ceaseless sacrifice of praise.
3 With grace abundantly endued,
A pure, believing multitude,
They all were of one heart and soul,
And only love inspired the whole.
4 O what an age of golden days!
O what a choice, peculiar race!
Washed in the Lamb's all-cleansing blood,
Anointed kings and priests to God!
5 Ye different sects, who all declare,
"Lo, here is Christ! " or, "Christ is here!"
Your stronger proofs divinely give,
And show me where the Christians live.
6 The gates of hell cannot prevail;
The church on earth can never fail;
Ah, join me to thy secret ones!
Ah, gather all thy living stones!
7 Scattered o'er all the earth they lie,
Till thou collect them with thine eye,
Draw by the music of thy name,
And charm into a beauteous frame.
8 For this the pleading Spirit groans,
And cries in all thy banished ones;
Greatest of gifts, thy love impart,
And make us of one mind and heart.
9 Join every soul that looks to thee
In bonds of perfect charity;
Now, Lord, the glorious fullness give,
And all in all for ever live!
John Wesley
(Tune: Abends)
In your attempt to balance the scripture, you have succeeded in watering it down. Instead of using THAT time Jesus said it, maybe I should have referred to this scripture instead:
Luke 14:26-33“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, saying, ‘This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.’ “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.
It's hard to hear, but it says what it says and it means what it says. You are continually trying to change the meaning of what Jesus has said and watering it down to mean that the great cost of being a disciple of Christ is really no cost at all.
I am not surprised at this response either, I have already been asked in this thread, "well, have you given up everything?" It is what people resort to when you point out what Jesus said about being a disciple, they want to know what YOU DID. My point is, who cares what I did. It doesn't matter to you nor anyone else. Obviously, I have not given up what the apostles have given up and either have you because we are still alive.
It doesn't matter what any of us has given up, does it? What matters is the standard at which God calls us to be as a disciple, the scripture from His word have been written in this thread, and they have been disputed, claiming they mean something different than what they say. We can skirt around them all we want, it won't change what they say.
In your attempt to balance the scripture, you have succeeded in watering it down. Instead of using THAT time Jesus said it, maybe I should have referred to this scripture instead:
Luke 14:26-33“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, saying, ‘This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.’ “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.
It's hard to hear, but it says what it says and it means what it says. You are continually trying to change the meaning of what Jesus has said and watering it down to mean that the great cost of being a disciple of Christ is really no cost at all.
I am not surprised at this response either, I have already been asked in this thread, "well, have you given up everything?" It is what people resort to when you point out what Jesus said about being a disciple, they want to know what YOU DID. My point is, who cares what I did. It doesn't matter to you nor anyone else. Obviously, I have not given up what the apostles have given up and either have you because we are still alive.
It doesn't matter what any of us has given up, does it? What matters is the standard at which God calls us to be as a disciple, the scripture from His word have been written in this thread, and they have been disputed, claiming they mean something different than what they say. We can skirt around them all we want, it won't change what they say.
Hi Johnny,
What makes you think I'm disputing scripture, or, watering it down? I really don't 'see' why you think what I wrote was remotedly intended an excuse not to do God's will. Seriously. 1 Cor 13? We can give up all kinds of things, and it's just a work of the flesh. You do realise that?
Once a person has understood being crucified with Christ, what does he possess which he has not received? How can he 'own' anything?
Here's an 'everything' that God asked of a young Christian woman engaged to be married. Would she go to a certain place in the world (far away) and serve Him there? Her fiance didn't want to go. So, she went alone, and was a beacon for Christ in a non-Christian nation for many years.
There are so many different way to 'give up everything', I really am not going attempt a list. All I'm saying is, Matt 7:21 is the acid test, and if one's attitude to the Lord is right, one will gladly bear with the times of having, and of going without, to abide in His love. Phil 4:11 - 13.
What makes you think I'm disputing scripture, or, watering it down? I really don't 'see' why you think what I wrote was remotedly intended an excuse not to do God's will. Seriously. 1 Cor 13? We can give up all kinds of things, and it's just a work of the flesh. You do realise that?
Once a person has understood being crucified with Christ, what does he possess which he has not received? How can he 'own' anything?
Here's an 'everything' that God asked of a young Christian woman engaged to be married. Would she go to a certain place in the world (far away) and serve Him there? Her fiance didn't want to go. So, she went alone, and was a beacon for Christ in a non-Christian nation for many years.
There are so many different way to 'give up everything', I really am not going attempt a list. All I'm saying is, Matt 7:21 is the acid test, and if one's attitude to the Lord is right, one will gladly bear with the times of having, and of going without, to abide in His love. Phil 4:11 - 13.
What God is always looking at is our heart and IT'S GRIP/CLUTCH on things or people. The outward is not always a true indication of one's heart. Conversely, as dragonfly alluded to, one can give all their possessions away (outward manifestation seen by men) and not have love.
Agreed! But the Lord does not say..."one of the options for being My disciple is to forsake all"
The narrow way is to believe Christ and trust God enough to tear yourself away from feeding at the beast's table and ask God to take care of you. Following Christ's example.
Hi Episkopos,
But He does reserve to Himself the right to determine whether a disciple has obeyed Him or not. ;)
But He does reserve to Himself the right to determine whether a disciple has obeyed Him or not. ;)
Yes! But this is a corporate endeavour. We are to lay down our lives for the brethren as our Master did. Christianity is not a religion of personal attainment.
The world as well as the principalities can see this through the shared life of Jesus in our midst. We are not to come out of the ways of the world to live as hermits. Rather we are to incarnate the Body of Christ on earth and move towards establishing the kingdom in the here and now!
Again, we use natural family as an excuse..see I have married a wife...but excuses are just that..an avoidance of the ways of God.
Hi Episkopos,
Maybe some people do, but by no means all Christians. Jesus said 'where two or three are gathered, there am I in the midst'. This goes for married couples as much as two of any other age or gender of believer.
Even when a single missionary goes to a place where there are no other beievers, 'there am I in the midst' is applicable to that lone believer who communes with Christ for all spiritual sustenance and growth. Zeph 3:17
This is what I mean about obedience to His will. If I really wanted to become part of a community of Christians who live together in the way you describe with enthusiasm, but then God does not approve my desire, I cannot join. He knows the course He has planned for each of us, and we have to be yoked to Him in the first instance. The fact that the early disciples met in homes after they were thrown out of the Temple, does not set itself as an essential manifestation of faith in Christ. The NT stops well short of even hinting in that direction. And little wonder when domestic upheaval was a reality for so many Christians, and travel was such a hazardous undertaking. It's the same today for some missionaries.
Brother... that is by the Holy Spirit wherever we are. Eph 2:21, 22, Rev 2:17, Rev 3:12.
We have no idea which living stones we will be placed next to in eternity. ;) 1 Kings 6:7
The kingdom of God is within you. As the hymn-writer said: 'send a revival, start the work in me'. Hebrews 8:11
We know from what Jesus said about few finding the narrow way, that Christians will always be in a minority while this earth lasts. Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof. That 'evil thereof' has been explained to me by one brother as, 'our own plans for the day', rather than God's. :huh:
2 Corinthians 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he [is] Christ's, even so [are] we Christ's.
2 Corinthians 10:18 For not he that commends himself is approved, but whom the Lord commends.
1 Corinthians 11:17 Now in this that I declare [unto you] I praise [you] not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20 When ye come together therefore into one place, [this] is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before [other] his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise [you] not.
What Christians need from one another is love, as John expressed in his first epistle. By this we know that we dwell in God, and the supply of His enabling Spirit continues. Phil 1:19, 20, 1 John 4:9 - 12, John 17:9 - 23.
Despite how you may be reading my comments, I do understand there is a precious bond between Christians in the Spirit who have become joined in a purpose set by the Lord, but, to enjoy this cannot become an end in itself. The purpose must always be God's, and His will for each believer who will one day stand before Him all alone.
Maybe some people do, but by no means all Christians. Jesus said 'where two or three are gathered, there am I in the midst'. This goes for married couples as much as two of any other age or gender of believer.
Even when a single missionary goes to a place where there are no other beievers, 'there am I in the midst' is applicable to that lone believer who communes with Christ for all spiritual sustenance and growth. Zeph 3:17
This is what I mean about obedience to His will. If I really wanted to become part of a community of Christians who live together in the way you describe with enthusiasm, but then God does not approve my desire, I cannot join. He knows the course He has planned for each of us, and we have to be yoked to Him in the first instance. The fact that the early disciples met in homes after they were thrown out of the Temple, does not set itself as an essential manifestation of faith in Christ. The NT stops well short of even hinting in that direction. And little wonder when domestic upheaval was a reality for so many Christians, and travel was such a hazardous undertaking. It's the same today for some missionaries.
Brother... that is by the Holy Spirit wherever we are. Eph 2:21, 22, Rev 2:17, Rev 3:12.
We have no idea which living stones we will be placed next to in eternity. ;) 1 Kings 6:7
The kingdom of God is within you. As the hymn-writer said: 'send a revival, start the work in me'. Hebrews 8:11
We know from what Jesus said about few finding the narrow way, that Christians will always be in a minority while this earth lasts. Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof. That 'evil thereof' has been explained to me by one brother as, 'our own plans for the day', rather than God's. :huh:
2 Corinthians 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he [is] Christ's, even so [are] we Christ's.
2 Corinthians 10:18 For not he that commends himself is approved, but whom the Lord commends.
1 Corinthians 11:17 Now in this that I declare [unto you] I praise [you] not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20 When ye come together therefore into one place, [this] is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before [other] his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise [you] not.
What Christians need from one another is love, as John expressed in his first epistle. By this we know that we dwell in God, and the supply of His enabling Spirit continues. Phil 1:19, 20, 1 John 4:9 - 12, John 17:9 - 23.
Despite how you may be reading my comments, I do understand there is a precious bond between Christians in the Spirit who have become joined in a purpose set by the Lord, but, to enjoy this cannot become an end in itself. The purpose must always be God's, and His will for each believer who will one day stand before Him all alone.
This is not the intention of the statement of Jesus. Why then would He call men away from their families?
Rather a husband and wife are ONE in the flesh. A gathering of disciples of Christ are ONE in the Spirit (not the flesh). So you would have to have 2 or three families gathered together to experience the constant presence of God.
You are making up stories now. Jesus does not need to be corrected by you!
Revisionism does not alter the bible nor the calling in Christ to be grafted into His Body....both spiritually and physically through the assembling of ourselves together in His name.
Emphasis on the "we".
We receive all whom the Lord sends to us.
T
A revival indeed starts with one person but this becomes a community in truth if allowed to grow.
Our own plans never involve laying down our lives for the brethren.
Does this go deeper than the love for our own families or is a few hour religious meeting sufficient?
Read what Jesus has to say to the 7 churches again....(Revelation)
He is also the ONLY ONE that knows how much a person has forsaken and how much farther they have to go. We are not the discerners of men's hearts. Only He is.
Again...this is not a final judgment issue for the individual...but a corporate issue for overcoming the world.
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