The Popular False Justification and False Sanctification View Today.

[Ferris Bueller]

...because of them practicing what they think is right, as those did in Mat 7:21-23 they believe they are righteous, or in other words saved. Do you agree sir?

They believe they have done things to warrant entry into the kingdom.

The verse basically states that everyone is righteous in their own eyes.

Yes, generally speaking.

In our natural selves each of us has our own ideas about what pleases God and will solicit his seal of approval. And that's where faith comes in. Faith establishes for us with certainty what we are to believe and trust in. Without it we're left to our own imaginations.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

After all, why should we be able to force God's hand for good or bad?

I personally don't see us believing in God, or not believing in God as forcing his hand. Though he is obligated to save the person who calls on him (Romans 10:13).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Logically either universal salvation reigns or arbitrary election does, and God being good, arbitrary election is out the window.

My head hurts.

Of the two, election is the scriptural truth. People are elected (chosen) on the basis of their faith. That's the way God ordained it from the beginning. Salvation has never been based on the merit of works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If salvation can be lost then it was never had in the first place since to lose one's salvation suggests one can coerce God's hand (force him to un-save you) through wicked behavior, and why would God permit that?

No, through unbelief. The wicked behavior is simply the outward manifestation of the return to unbelief. Wickedness is the sign of unbelief. Obedience is the sign of believing. Ultimately, the OSAS argument revolves around whether or not a believing person can stop believing (one's wickedness testifying to the fact that a person has returned to unbelief). I say it doesn't matter, because whether that person ever really believed or not they're going to the fiery place either way. The only useful element of OSAS (the original OSAS argument) is that a person must continue to believe all the way to the end to be saved in the end. OSAS just says that's a given because all true believers will endure to the end. Non-OSAS simply says you have to keep believing in order to be saved in the end.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Understood, but in the parables Jesus speaks of the Word falling on Rocky soil. It first takes root then dies. This seems the to imply salvation lost. That's confusing.

Some facts to know about the Parable of the Sower:

#1. In the Parable of the Weeds, we learn that He that sows the good seed is the Son of man (Jesus) (Matthew 13:37).

#2. The seed is the word of God, i.e. the gospel message from the Scriptures (Luke 8:11) (For we are born of incorruptible seed, which is the word of God that endures forever, see: 1 Peter 1:23-25; Also the words of Jesus are spiritual and they are life - John 6:63).

#3. Only those individuals who are labeled as: "The seed by the way side" are those who when they have heard the word, Satan came immediately, and took away the word that was sown in their hearts. (Mark 4:15). This is not said of the other seeds who fell away.

#4. The alternative to the "seed by way side" to be saved is if they "believe" in order to be saved (Luke 8:12). For Luke 8:12 says, "lest they should believe and be saved."

#5. We see that the one of the other seeds (that fell away later) do believe. However, they only believe for a while. Meaning, they are only saved for a while. For Luke 8:13 says, "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

#6. What was the cause of their falling away? Was it because they never believed in the first place? No. It was in time of temptation that they fall away (Again see Luke 8:13) (Also see Hebrews 3:12-14).

#7. The plants sprung up (Which means they had life).
Luke 8:6-7 says, "And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. In other words, it choked the life out of it. 1 Timothy 6:10 says, "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." We are told to continue in His goodness, otherwise we will be cut off (See Romans 11:21-22).

#8. They had "no root" within themselves (Matthew 13:21) is that they did not have root in ALL of God's Word. They only believed the milk of the Word (the gospel message of salvation in Jesus - The entrance to salvation) (1 Corinthians 3:2) (1 Peter 2:2), but they did not move on to the meat of the Word (Which is discern between good and evil - Hebrews 5:14). They did not have a root in doing righteousness (Which is also by Jesus Christ - Romans 13:14, John 15:5). Proverbs 12:3 says, "A man shall not be established by wickedness: but the root of the righteous shall not be moved." For he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7). This is the root, they did not have. It is the teachings of Jesus that tell us to live holy and righteous as a part of God's saving grace. Instead, they fell away due to specific sins like being offended by persecution and falling into desiring to be rich.

If salvation can be lost then it was never had in the first place since to lose one's salvation suggests one can coerce God's hand (force him to un-save you) through wicked behavior, and why would God permit that?

The same reason why God allows an unbeliever to die unsaved. It’s because that person loves their sin more than God.

“That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Understood, but in the parables Jesus speaks of the Word falling on Rocky soil. It first takes root then dies. This seems the to imply salvation lost. That's confusing. If salvation can be lost then it was never had in the first place since to lose one's salvation suggests one can coerce God's hand (force him to un-save you) through wicked behavior, and why would God permit that?

For me, the most convincing parable is the Parable of the Prodigal Son.

Many in the “OSAS” (Once Saved Always Saved), or “Sin and Still Be Saved” Camps will say that a person cannot become unborn.

But sons can die and they can no longer partake in having a relationship, and or family events, etc.; When the prodigal son returned back home sought forgiveness with his father, the father said of his prodigal son, “For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.” (Luke 15:24).

So we can see here that the son was dead spiritually while he was living it up with prostitutes, and when he came back home to the father and sought forgiveness with him, he became “alive AGAIN” spiritually.

This same truth is taught in James 5:19-20.

James 5:19-20 talks about how if a believer errs from the truth and another believer converts this sinning believer back to the faith (so as to confess of their sins to Jesus and to live faithful to the Lord again), they should know that they have helped to cover a multitude of their sins, and they helped saved a soul from spiritual death.

For me: The problem is why would God approve of a person’s evil? If one goes back to sin in any way or they justify even a small amount of sin saying they must sin again (even occasionally), this sounds like they are turning God’s grace into a license for immorality. They can live like the devil in some way and also have the keys to the kingdom. This to me violates a basic standard of morality and or in even being good. God wants us to be good and not evil because He is holy and good. It would malign the character of God if He turned a blind eye to our evils (Especially when His Word condemns those sins with warnings of hellfire and or condemnation). Granted, God may not destroy every believer if they sin. I believe God does give believers grace even if they may struggle with a sin, but the idea here is that the believer is going to fight and battle to overcome that sin with God’s help and with His Word and they are not going to just give in to making excuses for sin on some level like most of Christianity today.

For when you turn on the news or watch a movie, or read a novel, you know the good guys from the bad guys by what they do. It would not matter what their belief was. If they continued to do evil, they are in the group called the bad guys. This is basic morality 101. A person who does not understand this is falling dangerously close to having Sociopathic tendencies or in being amoral (i.e. to be without morals). This is why believers can fall away from salvation. They can start out good in having faith in God, but they can fall away due to sin. Read James 1:12, and James 1:21.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No penalty for sure, but it does reveal character quality (fruit), therefore reflecting on your name.

still do not get it

Moses said cursed is everyone who does not obey every word.

Have you met that standard, are you righteous according to that standard. or are you cursed?

there is no inbetween

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I did not say that.

But that is the way it sounded. You just wrote off the articles because they are from unbelievers (as if to say that they cannot be correct on anything). In fact, I have heard of believers (Christians) who felt the same way as the articles I shown. So it’s not an exclusive truth to just unbelievers (Which is what you implied). Did you even read the articles?

Seems you have a comprehension issue.

How old are you?
Note: You don’t have to give me a specific age, just give me an age range.

Couldn’t say, since I never quizzed my teachers on their religious beliefs. Did you?

I said, I quote: “I mean, did you not learn anything of benefit in school from unbelieving teachers?”

Nowhere did I say anything about a religious belief that you learned from them. I said did you learn of anything of benefit.
Math can be of a benefit to you even though it is not strictly a religious topic. Math can be helpful in getting by in life. The same is true with English and or other classes taught in school.

Of course it is personal.

I don’t know you. So no. It’s not personal. I am merely telling you what I feel is correct, and good for your benefit. If you don’t take the advice, then we can move on. No harm, no foul.

Best to listen to what people do say, rather than you think for them.

Good advice that you should listen to. I am trying to tell you that if you are more clear in your writing towards others, then others will not misunderstand what you write or they will be more likely to reply to you because you are not talking in fragments (like before) with words in high caps.

I find it most particular that you equate Oreo cookies with the appearance of evil.
Is it a difficult experience for you to grocery shop, or hand out treats to costumed children on Halloween?

First, as I pointed out to you before, you cannot tell they are Oreo cookies. Proof? Take your photo (at the same image size as shown on the forums), and ask your family and friends or people in your neighborhood what do these eyes look like? Ask them if they can even recognize if it is some kind of food. My guess is that they cannot tell. The image is too small and too dark to see that they are Oreo cookies. I still cannot see in the photo that it is obvious that they are Oreo cookies. So your bringing up that point is moot. The image of your avatar portrays what looks like black dark empty eyes like when people are demon possessed in movies, and or TV shows, comics, and or artwork. It does not even matter what Medium you used. People can make porn artwork out of Oreo cookies. It does not change the fact that it is promoting something sinful or evil. That’s what your not getting. Do you watch horror movies with demon possessed people? Do you think that is okay for a Christian to do something like that? Your avatar might as well be a smiling demon with black eyes. Is that how you want unbelievers to see how you represent Jesus Christ? But of course I don’t think you are going to see any kind of reason on this topic.

As for Halloween:

I think Christians can evangelize and be holy and separate without having to involve themselves in a pagan worldly holiday (i.e. Halloween) that promotes the sin of witchcraft, murderers, mindless death, demons, etc.; I think Christians do not like to think about how God required witches to be put to death in the Old Testament. But it happened. Granted, in the New Testament, we are to love and do good towards our enemies, but the point here is that Halloween is a glorification of evil. Why would God be in favor us supporting a day where people glorify witches and evil? It’s silly. No offense, but those Christians who do not see the truth on this topic are simply worldly focused and they are not seeking to pick up their cross, deny themselves as Jesus said ~ IMO. I know. I used to be in their shoes and think the same way. But at that time in my life, I would consider my focus to be concerned more about myself, and my pleasures, vs. truly seeking God and making Him happy in this life by my thoughts, and actions (According to His Word). In other words, they want Jesus their way, and not on God’s terms.

I don’t think Christians should even hand out candy or open their doors to give tracts on this day because it would be an acknowledgement to the practice of such a day itself (Which is a day of glorifying evil). This is a big one. Does the Lord want us to glorify evil and darkness and be a part of the world?

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.” (1 John 2:15-17).

Side Note:

Believers can give tracts or tell others about the gospel in other ways on that day that is not tied to the holiday. They can just give the tracts to a store clerk, or somebody in a store parking lot, etc.; They can love their neighbor in other ways without having to involve themselves in the holiday practice itself. But the draw of this world is strong. To break away from this world is difficult for many. For some, it is impossible, and thus they simply will never see what I am talking about here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

still do not get it

Moses said cursed is everyone who does not obey every word.

Have you met that standard, are you righteous according to that standard. or are you cursed?

there is no inbetween

Christians are not under the whole package deal or contract of the 613 Laws of Moses. Paul says he is not without Law but he is under the Law(s) of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21). So when Paul says he is not under the Law in Romans 6:14, he is referring to the Old Law and not the Laws of Christ. Paul spoke much about the Law of Moses in his letters because of the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, and then read Galatians 5:2). For if a person thought they had to be circumcised to be initially saved, they would be making the Law or a work the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation (Instead of God’s grace without works - in their Initial Salvation). Protestants ignore this context on Circumcision and they think Paul was referring to works or holy living that would even include the Sanctification Process after we are saved by God’s grace (When this is not the case). Paul says God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Paul says if you live after the flesh, you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit, you will live (Romans 8:13). Jesus taught that to not help the poor in this life (which is a work) means that one shall go away into punishment (in the after life) (See: Matthew 25:46). For James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). Meaning, faith and works are tied to each other. But again, works will not save a believer if they also justify iniquity or sin, too (See: Matthew 7:22-23).

Believers need to have a healthy balance of both God’s grace through faith + Sanctification when it comes to salvation of one’s soul so as to enter the Kingdom. Some believers appear to deny being saved by God’s grace without works in their Initial Salvation, and other believers deny the Sanctification Process of the Spirit when it comes to entering the Kingdom.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

No, through unbelief. The wicked behavior is simply the outward manifestation of the return to unbelief. Wickedness is the sign of unbelief.

Choosing not to believe, assuming one can choose in this matter, is itself a wicked behavior. God sees into our hearts so even our thoughts are actions as far as he's concerned. It's for this reason that everyone sins, since many good Christians can control their actions, but who can control every stray thought that enters their head?

 

[LearningToLetGo]

For me, the most convincing parable is the Parable of the Prodigal Son.

I do enjoy that parable as well. I also enjoy our conversation. You have given me much to think about.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Protestants say that Sanctification is not for the removal of the penalty of sin.

I believe they are wrong on this point.

1 John 1:7 basically says that if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
1 John 2:9-11 by it’s indirect wording says that to love your brother = walking in the light.
This means that we have to love our brother in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin.
To be cleansed by the blood of Jesus is a salvation issue.
Loving your brother (Walking in the light) is a part of our Sanctification by the Spirit.
So Sanctification of the Spirit is indeed a removal of the penalty of sin, just as being saved by God’s grace without works in our Initial Salvation is a removal of the penalty of sin (i.e. our past sins only). For if we sin again, we need to confess of our sins to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9). To be forgiven of sin is a salvation issue.

There are other warnings about how sin can destroy our soul, and or lessons on our being fruitless can lead to our own destruction or condemnation. The point of the parables and or warnings in the Bible on staying away from sin, and or being fruitful, and holy is not to show us how we must recognize fake believers from the real ones, but it is talking to us the READER who is to believe in God’s instructions (that are conditional).

If we walk in the light (1 John 1:7).
If we confess our sins (1 John 1:9).

If is conditional.
We is referring to not only those he is writing to, but it would include the apostle John himself (Who was writing the epistle).

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that I am not Catholic, Orthodox, etcetera; The Bible is my one and only sole authority (plus the Anointing to understand it) is my guide for all matters of faith and practice. Please also keep in mind that I believe we cannot live holy by the Spirit in the Sanctification Process without first being saved by God’s grace without works (Which is the 1st aspect of our salvation).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do enjoy that parable as well. I also enjoy our conversation. You have given me much to think about.

May you be blessed in the Lord.
Always pray about everything that is written in His Word, my friend.

 

[Taken]

But that is the way it sounded. You just wrote off the articles because they are from unbelievers (as if to say that they cannot be correct on anything). In fact, I have heard of believers (Christians) who felt the same way as the articles I shown. So it’s not an exclusive truth to just unbelievers (Which is what you implied). Did you even read the articles?

Get a reality check. I am responsible for what I say, not what you change what I say according to Your interpretation and not what others say.

How old are you?
Note: You don’t have to give me a specific age, just give me an age range.

In earthly years, none of your business.
In spiritual years, ageless.

I said, I quote: “I mean, did you not learn anything of benefit in school from unbelieving teachers?”

Read your question the first time. Couldn’t say, which teachers were believers or not. I didn’t take a poll.

Nowhere did I say anything about a religious belief that you learned from them.

Your question was specific about “unbelievers”.
Do you not consider “unbelief” a view held in regard to religion?

I said did you learn of anything of benefit.

Yes. The child illusion was quickly overcome; learned adults do not know everything and the same emotions children have continues into adulthood.

Math can be of a benefit to you even though it is not strictly a religious topic. Math can be helpful in getting by in life. The same is true with English and or other classes taught in school.

When this forum becomes an Academic Forum for Academic Subjects, I’m sure the Forum Administrators will make the announcement.

I am trying to tell you that if you are more clear in your writing towards others, then others will not misunderstand what you write or they will be more likely to reply to you because you are not talking in fragments (like before) with words in high caps.

You are trying to tell me what is acceptable to you.
I write as I speak.
I pause; called an Ellipsis (...)
I emphasize; via (Caps, underlining, bold, etc.)

If the long accepted grammatical manner in which I write is too unpleasant or too complicated for you to comprehend, that would be your problem.

My style of speaking and writing was developed specifically for the benefit of teaching the DEAF. They do NOT hear an emphasis. They do NOT know the difference between a pause and end of a point.

Correct you do not know me. And if you are an adult, I do not feel the need to acquiesce to your petty pretenses, AS IF, you have been solicited and appointed as Forum English police.

First, as I pointed out to you before, you cannot tell they are Oreo cookies. Proof?

I know they are Oreo cookies. I told you. End of point.

Take your photo (at the same image size as shown on the forums), and ask your family and friends or people in your neighborhood what do these eyes look like? Ask them if they can even recognize if it is some kind of food. My guess is that they cannot tell. The image is too small and too dark to see that they are Oreo cookies. I still cannot see in the photo that it is obvious that they are Oreo cookies. So your bringing up that point is moot.

LOL

The image of your avatar portrays what looks like black dark empty eyes like when people are demon possessed in movies, and or TV shows, comics, and or artwork.

I don’t know what a demon or demon possessed person looks like.
Pretty sure demons are invisible spirits and the possessed of demons still look like themselves, since possessed implies in dwelt.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

@Ferris Bueller
I believe as far as I've read your post that we are of like minded belief.

I have a nagging question that has been desired to be answered for 46 yrs of my faith..........

Why do people of all races, kindred, nations,and tongues ,
" WHY DO THEY .......NOT...... BELIEVE IN GOD ?

They believe in self, family, politics, war, love etc. but GOD just seems impossible to believe. my ❤ cries.....[ emojis probably won't show except for those tacky little ones offered.

 

[Enoch111]

Protestants say that Sanctification is not for the removal of the penalty of sin.

And that is correct. Sanctification means to be changed into the likeness of Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Get a reality check. I am responsible for what I say, not what you change what I say according to Your interpretation and not what others say.



In earthly years, none of your business.
In spiritual years, ageless.



Read your question the first time. Couldn’t say, which teachers were believers or not. I didn’t take a poll.



Your question was specific about “unbelievers”.
Do you not consider “unbelief” a view held in regard to religion?



Yes. The child illusion was quickly overcome; learned adults do not know everything and the same emotions children have continues into adulthood.




When this forum becomes an Academic Forum for Academic Subjects, I’m sure the Forum Administrators will make the announcement.



You are trying to tell me what is acceptable to you.
I write as I speak.
I pause; called an Ellipsis (...)
I emphasize; via (Caps, underlining, bold, etc.)

If the long accepted grammatical manner in which I write is too unpleasant or too complicated for you to comprehend, that would be your problem.

My style of speaking and writing was developed specifically for the benefit of teaching the DEAF. They do NOT hear an emphasis. They do NOT know the difference between a pause and end of a point.

Correct you do not know me. And if you are an adult, I do not feel the need to acquiesce to your petty pretenses, AS IF, you have been solicited and appointed as Forum English police.



I know they are Oreo cookies. I told you. End of point.



LOL



I don’t know what a demon or demon possessed person looks like.
Pretty sure demons are invisible spirits and the possessed of demons still look like themselves, since possessed implies in dwelt.

Goodbye, friend.

And may…

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And that is correct. Sanctification means to be changed into the likeness of Christ.

So then what do you make of 1 John 1:7, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Romans 8:13?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I have a nagging question that has been desired to be answered for 46 yrs of my faith..........

Why do people of all races, kindred, nations, tongues and nations ,
" WHY DO THEY .......NOT...... BELIEVE IN GOD ?

I know, it's frustrating. I've asked the same question over and over for many years myself. Most people simply do not want to be righteous.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

To all:

Protestants say that Sanctification is not for the removal of the penalty of sin.

I believe they are wrong on this point.

1 John 1:7 basically says that if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
1 John 2:9-11 by it’s indirect wording says that to love your brother = walking in the light.
This means that we have to love our brother in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin.
To be cleansed by the blood of Jesus is a salvation issue.
Loving your brother (Walking in the light) is a part of our Sanctification by the Spirit.
So Sanctification of the Spirit is indeed a removal of the penalty of sin, just as being saved by God’s grace without works in our Initial Salvation is a removal of the penalty of sin (i.e. our past sins only). For if we sin again, we need to confess of our sins to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9). To be forgiven of sin is a salvation issue.

There are other warnings about how sin can destroy our soul, and or lessons on our being fruitless can lead to our own destruction or condemnation. The point of the parables and or warnings in the Bible on staying away from sin, and or being fruitful, and holy is not to show us how we must recognize fake believers from the real ones, but it is talking to us the READER who is to believe in God’s instructions (that are conditional).

If we walk in the light (1 John 1:7).
If we confess our sins (1 John 1:9).

If is conditional.
We is referring to not only those he is writing to, but it would include the apostle John himself (Who was writing the epistle).

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that I am not Catholic, Orthodox, etcetera; The Bible is my one and only sole authority (plus the Anointing to understand it) is my guide for all matters of faith and practice. Please also keep in mind that I believe we cannot live holy by the Spirit in the Sanctification Process without first being saved by God’s grace without works (Which is the 1st aspect of our salvation).

I guess the simple answer here is, sanctification doesn't justify. Faith does. Sanctification is what happens when you believe and receive the gospel. In the moment you are justified you are set apart (sanctified) for God's holy purpose. From that point on you spend a lifetime becoming in practice what God has set you apart (sanctified) you to be. We call that the process of sanctification - becoming in practice the children of God we have become.

There is no justifying power in that sanctification. It happens because we have been justified by faith. Unbelief is what will bring the process of sanctification to an end. The unbelief is what causes us to no longer be set apart (sanctified) for God's holy purpose, assuming that's it's possible for a believer to return to unbelief. The end of the process of sanctification (a return to willful disobedience) is the sign that a person is unbelief. The unbelief being what causes a person's sins to be counted against them, not the ending of the process of sanctification.