The potential conceit of doctrinal individuality

[St. SteVen]

Maybe hang out in different circles?

Much love!

Sounds like a circular argument to me. - LOL

 

[marks]

Sounds like a circular argument to me. - LOL

No, I'm serious.

If the people you know feel like they have to "love" others, and do so out of a sense of duty, that's not love. "I'm going to make myself like you", what's real about that? But if we come to see people like God does, then we can set aside this fleshy shallow idea of "like" or "love", and embrace God's idea.

Where Jesus came to die for His abominable enemies, to rescue them from the consequences of their sins.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

If the people you know feel like they have to "love" others, and do so out of a sense of duty, that's not love. "I'm going to make myself like you", what's real about that? But if we come to see people like God does, then we can set aside this fleshy shallow idea of "like" or "love", and embrace God's idea.

Yes, of course.
But I think it is a wide-spread problem in the church, not an isolated thing. IMO

 

[marks]

Yes, of course.
But I think it is a wide-spread problem in the church, not an isolated thing. IMO

I don't see this in my church, so I'm making the same suggestion. Real love from real Christians. Mind you, I know little about you and nothing about those with whom you congregate. But if this is your experience . . . something to think about!

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Where Jesus came to die for His abominable enemies, to rescue them from the consequences of their sins

Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.

He did so till the very end!

 

[ScottA]

Exploring the many facets of the issues of doctrinal unity and individuality.
Issues range from the dictates of religious institutional tyranny on one extreme end of the spectrum,
to freewheeling excesses of biblical interpretation on the other extreme end.
Seeking balance somewhere in the middle.

Another issue that presents itself is: The potential conceit of doctrinal individuality.

This is manifested in a person that thinks they ALONE have the correct biblical interpretation.
Since they believe that God has informed them, there can be no other answer. Right? (wrong)

Typical statements of biblical/doctrinal conceit:
- "Haven't you read the Bible?"
- "God told me..."
- "Who should I believe; you, or God?"
- "God's Word disagrees with you."

Such statements are usually used to win a debate.
Playing "the God card" to end the discussion.

This same conceit plays out in the defense of denominational beliefs as well.
The use of a religious organization as an unquestionable authority in matters of faith and practice.

And one might reply that "The Bible is the unquestionable authority in matters of faith and practice."
Unfortunately, there is no consensus on what the Bible says. What to do, what to do... ???

Related topics:

Unity of the faith - at what cost?

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries. Are we there yet? (not by a long shot) Where is the problem? Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity. - Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences? - Does the Body...

www.christianityboard.com

Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Unity of the faith - at what cost? Link below. Probably the biggest roadblock to Christian doctrinal unity is holding on to the freedom we have to determine our own beliefs. Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of Christian doctrinal...

www.christianityboard.com

The tyranny of doctrinal unity - "Join or die."

A follow-up to the two previous topics: https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/would-you-surrender-your-own-beliefs-in-the-cause-of-doctrinal-unity.56191/ https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/unity-of-the-faith-at-what-cost.56095/ - Do you have the right to allow the Holy Spirit to...

www.christianityboard.com

So...are you advocating then for everyone having their own truth? (Rhetorical)

Conversely, the scriptures say, "Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar." Romans 3:4

Indeed there is but one truth, and who has declared it but God? Those He has sent--of His own choosing.!

So, yes there is a problem of many falsely claiming what is not true or that they alone have the truth, but that does not mean that the one actual truth cannot rightly be claimed. To do so would be to spread doubt in the same way that Satan does also. We should instead be reassuring one another that there indeed is one truth that remains and that prevails in spite of the many lies; and we should be teaching rather than doubt in all claims, that claims should not be made by any--to "be silent in church", allowing only the Holy Spirit to speak through His chosen, under the curse of God against what is false. Are these things not written? Has God not been clear and thorough? Indeed, we should fear God, and teach it as such, but also to be bold when sent by God. God doesn't need us to be His doctrinal police.

Those are the terms and such is in accord with God and the scriptures. Let a fool argue, and let God be God.

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't see this in my church, so I'm making the same suggestion. Real love from real Christians. Mind you, I know little about you and nothing about those with whom you congregate. But if this is your experience . . . something to think about!

When I said, "I think it is a wide-spread problem in the church...", I wasn't limiting that to my church.
In fact, I see little, if any, of that at my church. But in the past, I have seen it everywhere.
Even struggled with it myself on occasion.

Do you have no one at your church that you would really NOT like to hang with? (as the kids say)

 

[Nancy]

Yeah. This is what we REALLY are.

There's an old quote that some attribute to G.K. Chesterton (among others): The doctrine of Human Depravity is the one Christian dogma that is empirically verifiable.

Lol...tangible through and through! I love the quote

 

[marks]

When I said, "I think it is a wide-spread problem in the church...", I wasn't limiting that to my church.
In fact, I see little, if any, of that at my church. But in the past, I have seen it everywhere.
Even struggled with it myself on occasion.

Do you have no one at your church that you would really NOT like to hang with? (as the kids say)

How much of the church do you have experience with? I can't imagine much, just like me. I'm just one guy, and there are so many churches in so many places. And then there is the matter of Christendom or the True Church, those with a true faith.

If you "seen it everywhere", what does that really mean? To me it's an overgeneratization. I don't really think that way.

To your question, is there no one I dislike? The flesh has likes and dislikes, the spirit has love. Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The thing is, so far in my church, I haven't been able to spend nearly enough time with those whom I already know, and there are still quite a number of people whom I either don't know, or barely know.

And no, I haven't found someone yet with whom I don't want to fellowship, get to know better. But if I do, all that means is I'm allowing flesh over spirit, and that is ended with choice and prayer.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

When I said, "I think it is a wide-spread problem in the church...", I wasn't limiting that to my church.
In fact, I see little, if any, of that at my church. But in the past, I have seen it everywhere.
Even struggled with it myself on occasion.

Do you have no one at your church that you would really NOT like to hang with? (as the kids say)

I agree with your assessment.
Friendship, regardless of denomination is the single largest issue in western society right now. I gave a presentation on loneliness and I had mature men leave the room in tears.

We looked at friendship (talents) as a means of reaching those without the circle of influence, as the Lord did throughout his ministry.


It's a challenging exercise when you are placed in the inner circle!


The question asked: Do you have a person who is not family, but someone you can confide in without reservation. Someone you can share your shame with? I surveyed Christians and non-Christians and found over 95% of those questioned said no (75 people surveyed).

They didn't have one person they could place in their inner circle.

 

[marks]

They didn't have one person they could place in their inner circle.

Be that person.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Be that person.

Much love!

That was the final lesson - more easily said than done!
Ultimately, it comes down to vulnerability and trust.
We live in a world which is all about "I", and when "I" needs help, others have not been encouraged or allowed to help, so "I" stands alone, many of whom take their own lives, which at present is a blight on Christianity, regardless the denomination.
In the end we need the Master to convince us of our sins and to show us righteousness.
Only then can we have unity.
F2F

 

[marks]

That was the final lesson - more easily said than done!

The more awed I am with God, the less I find that I consider myself. It's impossible, actually, I think that anyway! Impossible for me, but the direct result of drawing near to God.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

... many of whom take their own lives, which at present is a blight on Christianity, regardless the denomination.

Suicide is "at present is a blight on Christianity, regardless the denomination." ???
Why do you think this is so?

 

[face2face]

Suicide is "at present is a blight on Christianity, regardless the denomination." ???
Why do you think this is so?

I'm across a number of Christian communities and over the past few years I've heard an increase in suicides. There is a direct correlation between the increase of sin, and shame which leads to suicide. Also a good friend of mine works in Samoa which has one of the highest suicide rates among youth of any country in the world. We have some countries in the earth with rates as high as 26 per 100,000 (South Korea).

The trend in the USA is very concerning.

 

[St. SteVen]

There is a direct correlation between the increase of sin, and shame which leads to suicide.

Seems to be a major disconnect there. God is full of mercy and forgiveness.

It seems that the more conservative a Christian group is, the more likely that
they would be shaming their congregations into forced compliance.
Those who can't tow the line would be left hopeless and suicidal, I suppose.
Is that what you see here?

 

[face2face]

Seems to be a major disconnect there. God is full of mercy and forgiveness.

It seems that the more conservative a Christian group is, the more likely that
they would be shaming their congregations into forced compliance.
Those who can't tow the line would be left hopeless and suicidal, I suppose.
Is that what you see here?

I'm not sure. What I know is the circumstances behind the act differ from person to person. I lost a friend a few years back who was abused as a teenager and never recovered from the shame of that. She was married with two young girls. Two months ago, a friend of the family in his late 50's who just celebrated his second grand child, hung himself in his garage. Some believe he grew tired of life and lost his reason to go on, even though he had a future hope. I don’t pretend to understand it all, only that our nature is self-destructive in so many ways and one doesn’t need to take their life to self-sabotage it.

 

[Patrick1966]

@St. SteVen I think it's possible that, at this time, Jesus doesn't want doctrinal unity.

Luke 12:51
“Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.

For that matter, Jesus doesn't even want all Jews to come to him - yet!

Romans 11:25
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

So while Jesus calls all to be his follower, for reasons that we can't necessarily know, many are spiritually prevented from following him, for now. The only thing that I can glean out of this is that God wants evil to exist for a period of time for the purposes of our complete edification and development. We are being refined and if we are removed from the crucible too soon by way of eliminating evil too soon, then we will be spiritually incomplete.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father".

 

[Patrick1966]

I'm not sure. What I know is the circumstances behind the act differ from person to person. I lost a friend a few years back who was abused as a teenager and never recovered from the shame of that. She was married with two young girls. Two months ago, a friend of the family in his late 50's who just celebrated his second grand child, hung himself in his garage. Some believe he grew tired of life and lost his reason to go on, even though he had a future hope. I don’t pretend to understand it all, only that our nature is self-destructive in so many ways and one doesn’t need to take their life to self-sabotage it.

We're not meant for this world. Our soul knows that this world sucks. Our soul years to be with our creator, although many of us don't necessarily know this. Take Robin Williams. He was successful by every earthly measure and even he committed suicide. God doesn't want us to kill ourselves, of course, as he wants us to learn our earthly lessons and to help others to learn theirs. However, God is love, God is merciful, God is understanding and God saves and perfects ALL.

 

[face2face]

We're not meant for this world.

Christ has overcome this world through faith and we are called to do the same - not try and change it, as some profess - this work will be done when he returns. Till then we practive what is right and avoid what is evil allowing our light to shine before all.
F2F