The (potential) Treachery of Doctrine > My way, or the highway >

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amadeus

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In that case consensus doesn't matter, correct? (between him and God)

This kind of question? (we need challenges, unless you are satisfied with the status quo - I'm not, obviously)
So many "churches"? (why would you question whether they are EVEN churches?)
Supposedly Christian? (same question)
Diametrically opposed views on different points? (the questions are MORE important than the answers to me)
We are still living for God by faith rather than by knowledge. As we grow, if we are growing, faith in some things may be replaced by knowledge by God. Too many people take hold of what they call essentials and treat them as knowledge when maybe they are not. They still only believe. They do not know. God knows. Jesus certainly knew many things. In his natural life on earth as a man was he living by faith or by knowledge?

What does this verse means to us?


Heb 12:2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Are finished living by faith? Do we already know as God knows with regard to everything in our walk with God?

To grow means to change, does it not? Did Jesus grow?


Lu 2:52And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

How much like Jesus are we now?

1jo 3:2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
 

Lambano

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Judges 17 or Isaiah 5? - LOL

Right. I agree.
Unfortunately, I don't see a way out of this box. A strong central authority subject to human sin like the RCC? The Bible as central authority, but every man interprets it as they see fit, as we currently have in modern Protestantism? No authority at all?
 
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quietthinker

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Wheat and tares grow together. Some are obvious, others not.

Logic does not make me fall in love, there is another factor. It is falling in love which is God's objective.
Being in love shifts everything......everyyyyyything!
Let those who talk about love live in their own skin.....and those who love embrace me.
 
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ScottA

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Follow-up to the topic: The potential conceit of doctrinal individuality

Got it all figured out?

- You read the Bible cover-to-cover. Good for you. Kudos.
- You read up on doctrine and apologetics. Good.
- You arrived at a position on nearly any biblical topic, or doctrine. Check.
- Now you are ready to kick some butt. Say what?

What's wrong with this picture?
Is this why we read the Bible and study?
Do we measure maturity by personal KNOWLEDGE, or by personal TRANSFORMATION ?

The danger of men arriving at a doctrine that seems good to them, is much like the danger of Brown Belts. It's all knowledge, but lacking in humility and maturity, and therefore lacking in actual spiritual understanding. In other words, under our own power we can do a lot. But if the light in us is darkness, unbeknownst to us, we can in fact be doing more harm than good. That is what Jesus basically said to the Priests and Pharisees-- that having all the knowledge of the scriptures was not enough, which ultimately caused them not to enter into the kingdom, but also hindered those who were entering. With all their knowledge--they weren't helping.
 
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St. SteVen

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God has not changed. He knew from the beginning, the differences between what was required of those living under the law given to Moses what has been required of those since Jesus' sacrifice and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit.
Well yes, we could say that God has not changed. But his dealings with us have.
Each of us needs to be following the lead of the Holy Spirit. In individuals cases, what is required may be somewhat different today. Babies versus mature and also in accord with what God has planned for one individual believer versus another. We are not all, or are not to be, the same part of the Body of Christ:
Agree.
 

St. SteVen

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Unfortunately, I don't see a way out of this box. A strong central authority subject to human sin like the RCC? The Bible as central authority, but every man interprets it as they see fit, as we currently have in modern Protestantism? No authority at all?
Perhaps if we remove the box we will find all the freedom we desire?
Even the writers of the NT misquoted scripture to make a point.
Maybe it doesn't matter?

So, which is it?
Is it "gave gifts" or "received gifts"?

Ephesians 4:8 NIV
This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”

Compare: misquoted above?

Psalm 68:18 NIV
When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from[a] the rebellious—
that you,[b] Lord God, might dwell there.
 

St. SteVen

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Wheat and tares grow together. Some are obvious, others not.
Right.
And were we instructed to remove them, or what? (and why?)
Logic does not make me fall in love, there is another factor. It is falling in love which is God's objective.
Being in love shifts everything......everyyyyyything!
AMEN
Let those who talk about love live in their own skin.....and those who love embrace me.
Now you're talkin'. - LOL
 

Lambano

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Perhaps if we remove the box we will find all the freedom we desire?
Even the writers of the NT misquoted scripture to make a point.
Maybe it doesn't matter?

So, which is it?
Is it "gave gifts" or "received gifts"?

Ephesians 4:8 NIV
This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”

Compare: misquoted above?

Psalm 68:18 NIV
When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from[a] the rebellious—
that you,[b] Lord God, might dwell there.
That's another interesting problem for the whole scriptural authority issue. I find NetBible's translator's notes helpful, which says about the Ephesians passage:

sn A quotation which is perhaps ultimately derived from Ps 68:18. However, the wording here differs from that of Ps 68 in both the Hebrew text and the LXX in a few places, the most significant of which is reading “gave gifts to” in place of “received gifts from” as in HT and LXX. It has sometimes been suggested that the author of Ephesians modified the text he was citing in order to better support what he wanted to say here. Such modifications are sometimes found in rabbinic exegesis from this and later periods, but it is also possible that the author was simply citing a variant of Ps 68 known to him but which has not survived outside its quotation here (W. H. Harris, The Descent of Christ [AGJU 32], 104). Another possibility is that the words here, which strongly resemble Ps 68:19 HT and LXX (68:18 ET), are actually part of an early Christian hymn quoted by the author.
 
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St. SteVen

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That's another interesting problem for the whole scriptural authority issue. I find NetBible's translator's notes helpful, which says about the Ephesians passage:

sn A quotation which is perhaps ultimately derived from Ps 68:18. However, the wording here differs from that of Ps 68 in both the Hebrew text and the LXX in a few places, the most significant of which is reading “gave gifts to” in place of “received gifts from” as in HT and LXX. It has sometimes been suggested that the author of Ephesians modified the text he was citing in order to better support what he wanted to say here. Such modifications are sometimes found in rabbinic exegesis from this and later periods, but it is also possible that the author was simply citing a variant of Ps 68 known to him but which has not survived outside its quotation here (W. H. Harris, The Descent of Christ [AGJU 32], 104). Another possibility is that the words here, which strongly resemble Ps 68:19 HT and LXX (68:18 ET), are actually part of an early Christian hymn quoted by the author.
Interesting. NONE would dare claim it was a misquote.
Even though the Apostle wrote:

Ephesians 4:8 NIV
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
 

Wrangler

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Once again we are confronted with the question about what constitutes "unbiblical" doctrine.
Two terms people interchange falsely, unbiblical with anti-Biblical.

Unbiblical is the fact that Florida is south of Maine. Much of what we know today is unbiblical.

Anti-Biblical is like anti-truth. Jordan Pederson described this as different from a lie. A lie, he says, is a twist or perversion of what is true. For example. Suppose I say I came home at 10 PM last night but that is a lie because I actually came home at 1 AM. An anti-truth is that I did not come home at all. You got distracted by the time element of the lie.

Some say the greatest trick of the devil is to convince people he is not real. The anti-truth, the anti-biblical greatest trick is to convince people that God is not real.

The flip side of all this is what does it mean to claim that something is Biblical? (Notice how we do not even add something is Biblical doctrine?) Murder, rape, stealing, sexual immorality, incest, human sacrifice, slaughtering women, children and babies, genocide, and turning away from God are all Biblical in that they are in the Bible.

My view is to stay positive consistent with Phillipians 4:8 and to KISS - Keep is Simple! Pastor Steve Cioccolanti from Australia says the entire Bible can be summed up in 2 words: CHOOSE LIFE. If you want to be an intellectual snob, one might add a few more words getting to the next level of detail: Jesus is the life, the truth and the way. Beyond that, you are just pontificating. Jesus did not pontificate. He spoke personally, individually. It was not his rhetorical style but the message. He is the gate; no one gets to God but through him.
 

Wrangler

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Many Christians object to the number of denominations, considering it to be negative division.
I don't see it that way. Many of the church "splits" were fueled by revival.
And what we ended up with IMHO is a lot of specialists in different areas.
I see it that way too.

Due to hubris, some suppose they just need to express their doctrine more often and LOUDER. Truth is, they will never reach some. Yet, other denominations will reach some - EVEN though different in some relatively trivial point of doctrine.

Of course, no subject in the human experience claims there is no small point like religion. It shows Christians have lost discernment. Christ merely said "Follow me." He did not include a long list of beliefs you must accept. The profound simplicity of this is lost on the arrogant, intellectual snobs. Don't you know what Agape means? :rolleyes:
 
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St. SteVen

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I have wondered what it must have been like for Moses to receive
the Ten Commandments when he was himself a murderer.
Write this down; Thou shalt not kill. (gulp)
 

GRACE ambassador

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Who decides?
The individual, between him and God!
I have decided to Follow Jesus?

A) Do I follow Him, and the doctrine He Spoke as The:

Humble Christ, on the earth, To Israel, 12 apostles, Under The Law/covenants
/Prophecy:

1) Repent (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!") or perish
(Luk 13:3,5, 24:47; Mar 1:4)
+
2) believe the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23, 9:35, 24:14; Mar 1:14,15)
+
3) be baptized "For the remission of sin" (Mar 1:4 Luk 3:3, 7:29:30, 24:47;
Act 2:38)
+
4) "show works meet for repentance" (Mat 3:8), because,
+
5) "to the twelve tribes of Israel," "faith Without works is dead"
(Jam 1:1, 2:17,26)
+
6) "keep the commandments" to "enter life" (Mat 19:17)
+
7) "one thing thou lackest...sell ALL/take up cross/follow Jesus"
(Mar 10:17-23)
+
8) pray as a watchman, for Great Tribulation, man of sin, son of perdition, and
signs of the end times, and Second Coming?

Do I follow His earthly prophecy program of covenants and law?
( OT, Mat - John, Heb - Rev ) or:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

B) Do I follow Him As The Risen And Glorified "Head Of His Church" and:

His Heavenly Grace Program, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery?
(His Doctrine in Romans - Philemon)

1) Have repentance toward God (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!")
(Acts 20:21)
+
2) Have faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21), and trust/believe The Gospel
Of The Grace Of God: His Death, Burial, And Resurrection, According To The Scripture
(Ephesians 2:5-9; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
+
3) Acknowledge I am Spiritually Baptized By The ONE Baptism Of The Holy Spirit
Into The ONE (Spiritual Organism) Body Of Christ, Seated In the Heavenlies
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13)
+
4) Acknowledge Christ Is Living in me, so I allow Him to, through me:
+
5) To Fulfil:

All Of His Law, In ONE Word: ►► love ◄◄ thy neighbor​
as thyself!" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)​
+
6) Study God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided to show myself "Approved Unto God"
(2 Timothy 2:15), and all the rest of these Bible study Rules
+
7) Work with my hands to "give to them in need," and the LORD "shall supply all my need"
(Ephesians 4:28; 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12; 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12; 1 Timothy 5:8)
+
8) Be a humble prayer warrior and:
"...look, watch, and Patiently WAIT For..." = The LORD Jesus Christ!
(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25; 1 Corinthians 1:7;
Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 1:10;
1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13)
+
9) Put on the FULL armour of God and stand, in the spiritual warfare I wrestle with
(Ephesians 6:10-18)
+
10)
Eph 6:19 "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I​
may open my mouth boldly, to make known the Mystery Of The Gospel,"
+
11)
Eph 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of The Mystery, which from the​
beginning of the world hath been hid in God, Who created all things by Jesus Christ"​
+
12) Acknowledge that I am going to give an account at Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15;
Romans 14:12), at my Heavenly Home-Going ( Great GRACE Departure! )

According to these and all the details of God's Sound Doctrinal Blueprint In
Romans Through Philemon?
(1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Timothy 4:3; Titus 1:9):

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Or:

C) Do I speak after following the Many, who homogenize A) + B) into
Massive Confusion ( treachery of doctrine? )?​

Amen.
 
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face2face

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I have wondered what it must have been like for Moses to receive
the Ten Commandments when he was himself a murderer.
Write this down; Thou shalt not kill. (gulp)
Of all the Law/s the one that got the Apostle Paul was covetousness.


1687225433555.png

Every other commandment can be seen and is tangible except the one furthest away from Loving God with all our heart and mind!

This final commandment in Moses’ list of "ten words" (Exod. 34:28) epitomizes the whole catalogue, for, like the first, it relates to the motive of the heart.

The first and the last are the only two of the Ten Commandments that require fulfilment "within the heart”, in the hidden chamber where only God (the first commandment) and the person himself (the last commandment) attend!

All the others can be manifested externally in actions involving the worship of God (Commandments 2-5) and in association with others (Commandments 6-9).

Notice, however, that to "covet“ applies to evil desires; (evil is always present with me = Romans 7) it is the verb of the same word rendered "lust". The Greek verb, epithumeo, translated "lust" and "covet" in Rom. 7:7, means to fix the desire upon; to earnestly seek.

It can be the expression of godly actions also: 1 Cor.12:31; 14:39.

For Paul, regardless of how hard he tried he could never overcome being covetous.

F2F
 

St. SteVen

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I have decided to Follow Jesus?

A) Do I follow Him, and the doctrine He Spoke as The:

Humble Christ, on the earth, To Israel, 12 apostles, Under The Law/covenants
/Prophecy:
Doctrines he spoke? Some, or all?
B) Do I follow Him As The Risen And Glorified "Head Of His Church" and:

His Heavenly Grace Program, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery?
(His Doctrine in Romans - Philemon)
The Apostle Paul wrote Romans - Philemon.
C) Do I speak after following the Many, who homogenize A) + B) into
Massive Confusion ( treachery of doctrine? )?
To be clear, the aim of this tropic is to address what is being DONE with the doctrine,
If the purpose is to weaponize it against the Body of Christ, something is wrong.
To tear down others rather than build them up.

In retrospect my topic title is a bit abrasive. (sorry)

What are your motives for Bible study and sharing?
You don't strike me as the "My way, or the highway." type.