The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[Arnie Manitoba]

Actually I have never been at my wits end ..... I am fine ..... I just find it cute and puzzling how some folks absolutely do not want anything else to happen for Israel ..... and i think I know why.

They selfishly are claiming all the promises for themselves.

Which pretty well amounts to them saying ....

To Hell with Israel

and

To Hell with anyone who sees a scriptural future for Israel

(Which of course would be me.)

So off to Hell I go

hehe

 

[Rex]

I find it cute puzzling that people that can't find anything to say in their defence of faith resort to sillyness.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I find it cute puzzling that people that can't find anything to say in their defence of faith resort to sillyness.

I thought you were the one who cannot see future Israel in your bible.

It has nothing to do with the defense of my faith

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Arnie,

You are willingly ignorant of the truth, but that need not be a permanent state. There is just as much future for Israel now as there was when Peter preached on the day of Pentecost. If you think I'm saying otherwise, you are not reading my posts with understanding. Nor Rex's. That's an unnecessary choice you make, which saves you having to revise your understanding of the whole of scripture. You could always change your mind. As a preacher I know likes to quip, 'if you haven't changed your mind recently, how do you know you've still got one?'

 

[veteran]

Same old argument between Jews and Gentiles again.

Why not go directly to the Isaiah Scripture where Apostle Paul was quoting the Romans 11:25-26 idea from???

Isa 59:20
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
(KJV)

That Isaiah Scripture automatically put a condition upon Paul's statement of who he meant with "all Israel" in Rom.11:26. Just as the rebellious of Israel who refuse Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ have been cut off for unbelief, any of those who remain in that unbelief after Christ's return will still be cut off. It's that simple. It's impossible to know today how many blood-born Israelites that will still refuse Christ Jesus after His return, even IF He gathers those back to the holy lands also.

Ezekiel 44 does give us a picture of His Millennium reign with Levites that went astray when Israel went astray being assigned menial temple duties and not allowed to approach near Christ in that time. So I believe all flesh born Israelites will be gathered by Christ like the Scripture says, but they obviously are not all going to be in the same spiritual condition during Christ's Milennium reign with His elect Church that did not go astray. I feel that very few flesh born Israelites will remain in unbelief once Christ Jesus appears and takes reign over all nations.

But NEITHER blood-born Israelite or believing Gentile is going to have a monopoly on Christ's Salvation. But only His elect kings and priests will be the teachers and rulers with Christ in that time. Christ's coming Milennium reign is not going to be an easy time for many, which is what His reign and the reign of His elect in that time with the "rod of iron" represents. It is going to be a time of severe discipline upon many, many that are not used to it. One of the main workings of that time upon God's people will be to teach them the difference between the clean and unclean, between the holy and the profane (Ezekiel 44:23-24).

 

[jiggyfly]

I have no idea what Romans 11:25 has to do with a temple but in the mean time here is something to think about
Some People can take one verse and re-translate the entire new testament and prophesy as well

The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25


Romans 11: 20 says "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" Who are they? Paul says in verse 14, "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them whih are my flesh, and might save some of them."

Most of the Jews of Paul's time rejected Christ and they were broken off. Now Paul says in Romans 11: 25-26 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

Who is "Israel" in verse 26?

Dispensationalists say in the Bible Israel must always be physical Israel, not some spiritual construct. Therefore by dispensationalist definition, Israel in verse 26 must be physical Israel and therefore Paul is predicting that at some time all physical Israel will be saved.

This interpretation contradicts Paul's statement in verse 20 that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief.

If all Israel is to be saved, then Israel here refers to Israel as being all of God's people who are saved, no matter what their race, Jew or Gentile. This interpretation is consistent with what Paul says in
Romans 2: 28-29, "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

And this interpretation of Romans 11: 25-26 fits what Paul says in Galatians 3: 28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Paul is pointing out that after physical Israel was reborn, or the small remnant of physical Israel who were more faithful were translated into Christians as spiritual Israel race no longer matters in the eyes of God. And remember what Paul also says in Galatians 4: 22-26, "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other
by a freewoman.

23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Not only was race as a measure of acceptance by God done away with at the Cross, but the Cross opened up Christians to receive the Holy Spirit and operate in the Spirit. Operating in the Spirit, Christians are not in bondage to the old law of Mount Sinai. Christians are in Jerusalem which is free, not literal physical Jerusalem


Now you have two choices you can choose to believe the harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25

Or you can take your black sharpie and start censoring the verses,
Romans 2:28-29
Gal 3:28
Gal 4:22-26
You don't need them any longer
And a list of others I will prove including the OT


If you have not removed your head from your @$$ yet

Please take your black sharpie and remove Romans 9:6-9
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor
because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On
the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be
reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”


Remove Matthew 3:9
and Luke 3:8 also

As to Abraham's promise
In Gen 12:3 remove all the families of the earth shall be blessed
Gen 18:18 do the same and in Gen 22:18 and as well in Gen 26:4

Why!! because you believe the promise to be for the Jews or Israel alone so scratch out the reference to the families and the nations of the world. God only loves the Jews LOL.

When keeping with the context when Paul speaks of "all Israel will be saved" he is speaking of those of Israel who were broken off because of unbelief. It's right there before and after verse 26 and if you continue on down to verse 32 it is a confirming factor.

Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
34 For who can know the Lord’s thoughts? Who knows enough to give him advice? 35 And who has given him so much that he needs to pay it back?
36 For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
Romans 11:33-36 (NLT)

 

[Rex]

When keeping with the context when Paul speaks of "all Israel will be saved" he is speaking of those of Israel who were broken off because of unbelief. It's right there before and after verse 26 and if you continue on down to verse 32 it is a confirming factor.

Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!
34 For who can know the Lord’s thoughts? Who knows enough to give him advice? 35 And who has given him so much that he needs to pay it back?
36 For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory. All glory to him forever! Amen.
Romans 11:33-36 (NLT)

Not surprising your universal theology would also include everyone. and your argument that we just don't understand or comprehend what it is God desires of us. Then why even bother with prophesy or what Jesus did or said, it all irrelevant
.
This quote just about covers it all when used as a foundation doesn't it.

How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!

Lets all just sit back and hope for the best.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Not surprising your universal theology would also include everyone. and your argument that we just don't understand or comprehend what it is God desires of us. Then why even bother with prophesy or what Jesus did or said, it all irrelevant
.

Indeed. What's the point of fearing GOD if all are saved?

 

[Polt]

I'm not clued up on what a dispensationist is

A Dispensationalist believes that there are two dispensations, one for Jews and one for gentiles. They believe that all Jews are saved, regardless of Jesus. While they believe that only gentiles who accept Jesus are saved. They believe that Christianity is sort of a detour from God's plan for the Jews.

I wonder why they don't convert to Judaism. Better to be on the main road than the detour, heh?

 

[jiggyfly]

Not surprising your universal theology would also include everyone. and your argument that we just don't understand or comprehend what it is God desires of us. Then why even bother with prophesy or what Jesus did or said, it all irrelevant
.
This quote just about covers it all when used as a foundation doesn't it.
Lets all just sit back and hope for the best.

Sorry to see that you make such assumptions about what I believe and what I have gathered from the scriptures.

I thought we were discussing what Paul said in Romans 11. Are you upset because of the scriptures I posted?

Indeed. What's the point of fearing GOD if all are saved?

Can you elaborate and define saved?

A Dispensationalist believes that there are two dispensations, one for Jews and one for gentiles. They believe that all Jews are saved, regardless of Jesus. While they believe that only gentiles who accept Jesus are saved. They believe that Christianity is sort of a detour from God's plan for the Jews.

I wonder why they don't convert to Judaism. Better to be on the main road than the detour, heh?

If that is what a dispensationalist is than I am sure I am not one because I believe that all must come through Christ to get to Father.

 

[Rex]

Sorry to see that you make such assumptions about what I believe and what I have gathered from the scriptures.

I thought we were discussing what Paul said in Romans 11. Are you upset because of the scriptures I posted?

Not at all just an observer of your post and beliefs, it has little to do with with your reply which is nothing more than a personal opinion based on just what I said above.

Heres your foundational princable that you stacked your quote upone. Simply stated, you can draw any conclusion you like using this opening.
The catholic church is one of the biggest abuserser of the "mystery of God" which = just believe what we tell you.

How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!

Now do ypu have any NT verses that clearly indicate what you presume the scriptures you quoted mean?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Can you elaborate and define saved?

Saved = resurrected into the eternal life of GOD (as opposed to resurrected into GOD's eternal displeasure, or annihilation)

 

[ENOCH2010]

Saved = resurrected into the eternal life of GOD (as opposed to resurrection into GOD's eternal displeasure or annihilation)

saved = rescued

 

[Polt]

If that is what a dispensationalist is than I am sure I am not one because I believe that all must come through Christ to get to Father.

You said earlier under this topic, "When keeping with the context when Paul speaks of 'all Israel will be saved' he is speaking of those of Israel who were broken off because of unbelief." In other words, you claim the disbelief of Jews is not an obstacle to their salvation.

That sounds like something a dispensationalist will say. However, the only Israel that will be saved are those of us who are Believers.

 

[veteran]

The ONLY ones saved at Christ's coming, meaning in the resurrection putting on immortality sense, are His elect priests and kings that reign with Him.

Does that mean He is going to destroy everyone else at that time? God forbid, no! Some here apparently totally disregard Bible Scripture about Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the nations, and then the Judgment to perishing into the lake of fire only after that thousand years period (Rev.20; Zech.14; Rev.22:14-15; Ezek.44).

 

[jiggyfly]

You said earlier under this topic, "When keeping with the context when Paul speaks of 'all Israel will be saved' he is speaking of those of Israel who were broken off because of unbelief." In other words, you claim the disbelief of Jews is not an obstacle to their salvation.

That sounds like something a dispensationalist will say. However, the only Israel that will be saved are those of us who are Believers.

No, I haven't made that claim, I pointed out who Paul was refering to within this context, disbelief is always an obstacle but it is obviously not an immovable obstacle as far as God is concerned. Do you believe that those who were broken off because of their unbelief cannot become a believer at a latter time? Can you please show scripture to support your belief. I believe that all must come through Christ to get to Father and that Father has the ability to bring His will, desire and plan to fruition and that Christ successfully accomplished what He was sent to do.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

No, I haven't made that claim, I pointed out who Paul was refering to within this context, disbelief is always an obstacle but it is obviously not an immovable obstacle as far as God is concerned. Do you believe that those who were broken off because of their unbelief cannot become a believer at a latter time? Can you please show scripture to support your belief. I believe that all must come through Christ to get to Father and that Father has the ability to bring His will, desire and plan to fruition and that Christ successfully accomplished what He was sent to do.

You said:
Do you believe that those who were broken off because of their unbelief cannot become a believer at a latter time?



JB: Are you referring to Israel as a nation or individuals? As your question appears vague.

In regards to the individual the scripture states:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6:4-6

 

[jiggyfly]

You said:
Do you believe that those who were broken off because of their unbelief cannot become a believer at a latter time?



JB: Are you referring to Israel as a nation or individuals? As your question appears vague.

In regards to the individual the scripture states:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb 6:4-6

I was speaking on a personal level because isn't that how we must come to Christ?

As far as the scripture from Hebrews you posted how is that connected with this discussion? Did any of Israel who disbelieved in Christ taste the HolySpirit?

I would like to discuss further what you understand this scripture in Hebrews 6 to mean, because it maybe you posted it because you misunderstand it's meaning.

 

[Polt]

No, I haven't made that claim, I pointed out who Paul was refering to within this context, disbelief is always an obstacle but it is obviously not an immovable obstacle as far as God is concerned. Do you believe that those who were broken off because of their unbelief cannot become a believer at a latter time? Can you please show scripture to support your belief. I believe that all must come through Christ to get to Father and that Father has the ability to bring His will, desire and plan to fruition and that Christ successfully accomplished what He was sent to do.

Yes or no, when Paul writes "All Israel will be saved" do you read that to say "All Jews will be saved"? .

Jews are unbelievers. Their religion excludes faith in Jesus. All who die as Jews die lost. But, Dispensationalists believe all Jews will be saved by virtue of their non-Christian religion (i.e. because they're Jews). They read Paul to say "All Jews will be saved."

Anyone can be saved by accepting Jesus, the same for all men.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Polt.

Yes or no, when Paul writes "All Israel will be saved" do you read that to say "All Jews will be saved"? .

Jews are unbelievers. Their religion excludes faith in Jesus. All who die as Jews die lost. But, Dispensationalists believe all Jews will be saved by virtue of their non-Christian religion (i.e. because they're Jews). They read Paul to say "All Jews will be saved."

Anyone can be saved by accepting Jesus, the same for all men.

You are DEAD WRONG about believing "all Jews will be saved by virtue of their non-Christian religion." They will be saved (RESCUED) because they are FAMILY! Don't be such a close-minded person! They are MISHPACHAH, the "CHILDREN of Isra'el (Jacob) who was the son of Yitschaq (Isaac) who was the son of Avraham (Abraham)!" It is not through any virtue that they might have or fail to have! READ the OT! You will see that time and time again these are accounts of a FAMILY HISTORY!

I should add that it's ALL ABOUT FAMILY! And, the good news to the Gentiles was that they, through the death and resurrection of the Messiah Yeshua`, could become part of that FAMILY, too! But, you become part of the FAMILY; you don't (as a "Church") supersede the family, you become PART of the already-existing FAMILY! You are born again of the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) and become SONS (and DAUGHTERS) and BROTHERS (and SISTERS) to the Messiah, Yeshua`, the Son of David and the Son of God! That's why that, IN CHRIST or IN THE MESSIAH, we are ONE!