Jews are of a false religion not a family. But, thank you anyway for the clear Dispensational illustration. You believe they're saved because they're Jews, regardless of their rejection of Jesus. But, that's not Christianity. It's not what the OT teaches, either. Dispensationalism is one of the most incoherent and unbiblical doctrines to ever darken the step of the church.Retrobyter said:
The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]
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So RB. Will Judas be saved? You know.. the naughty little boy who tattle-taled on Christ. He's in 'da family. Youse know what I mean?Retrobyter said:
Hi Retrobyter,
Please think of the specific family members who died at God's hand, in the OT, through their explicit rebellion against God's instructions at the time.
Are you saying that their relationship to each other as descendants of Jacob supersedes their submission to the Sinai covenant by which they came under God's promise to make them 'a peculiar treasure', 'a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation', unto God?
What if the natural family members don't want to be members of the spiritual family?
Please think of the specific family members who died at God's hand, in the OT, through their explicit rebellion against God's instructions at the time.
Are you saying that their relationship to each other as descendants of Jacob supersedes their submission to the Sinai covenant by which they came under God's promise to make them 'a peculiar treasure', 'a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation', unto God?
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Polt.
I am not dispensational (not that you know what the term means), but, YES, they will besaved RESCUED because they're Jews, or more appropriately, because they are children of Isra'el. Look, many don't KNOW that they rejected Jesus Yeshua`, haMashiach Elohiym (the Messiah of God), or the "LORD'S Christ"! First of all, He was never presented to them as such, and second, all they know about "Jesus Christ" is that it is the name of the Gentile Christians' god! But, that's Christianity! "Kill all the Jews because they're 'Christ-killers' and don't explain ANYTHING! It takes too long, and we don't want to be bothered!"
Modern Christianity is the most incoherent and unbiblical doctrine to ever darken the steps of an ekkleesia!
Polt said:
I am not dispensational (not that you know what the term means), but, YES, they will be
Modern Christianity is the most incoherent and unbiblical doctrine to ever darken the steps of an ekkleesia!
Jesus never presented himself as the Messiah to the Jews, in spite of that presentation being the reason they murdered Him? Who was Peter sharing the Gospel with at Pentecost? Which Temple did Jesus and His apostles spend their time teaching? Where Jews excluded from those crowds in Jerusalem when Jesus revealed that he was the Messiah, as recorded in the Bible so that we ourselves know Jesus was the Messiah?Retrobyter said:
Sorry, your attempt at being inflammatory ("Kill all the Jews because they're 'Christ-killers'.") doesn't change the incoherent and unchristian nature of your theology. Everything you say just digs your hole deeper.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.
Did Y'hudah (Judas) know that Yeshua` was haMashiach Elohiym (the Messiah of God)? He was told so, but did He believe it? Do you think He was trying to repent when he went back to the religious leaders and tried to get them to take back the money? Yes, but even then it was because Yeshua` was an "innocent man!" Do you think he might have regretted his choice when he went out and hanged himself? Sure he did!
There are just some things that you can't take back, though, once you've made a choice. For instance, you can't retrieve the words once you've let them past your lips (or once you've hit "post")! This is what Y'hudah found out first hand, just as did Esav (Esau)!
Hebrews 12:14-17
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
KJV
And, this is what Yochanan (John) was talking about, too:
1 John 5:16-17
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
KJV
As long as a brother sins a sin that doesn't warrant the death penalty, we are to pray for that brother's life. However, if one DOES sin a sin that warrants the death penalty, we are not to pray for his life because God SUPPORTS, indeed, INSTITUTED civil law and the death penalty!
Do you think he ever saw Yeshua` as anything more than a good man, an innocent man? He was a thief, a materialistic man, and a traitor. I don't believe that Y'hudah EVER saw Him as a KING APPARENT! Might he be given another chance? ISN'T THAT UP TO GOD?! If God is like us, no, he probably won't get a second chance. On the other hand, God is NOT like us (fortunately), and He gave US a second chance (and a third and a fourth and a ...), didn't He?! So, are YOU willing to speak for God? I'm not!
Shalom, Polt.
As far as "digging my hole deeper," since it's all upside-down, I'm really going upward, and it's YOU who is topsy-turvy! Besides, who determines what is "unChristian" about the nature of my theology? YOU?! I don't think so. Just because it's not mainstream doesn't mean that it's "unChristian." And, it's not being "inflammatory"; it's being "HISTORIC!" That is PRECISELY the rhetoric of so-called Christians down through the years as they justified themselves being anti-Semitic!
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Did Y'hudah (Judas) know that Yeshua` was haMashiach Elohiym (the Messiah of God)? He was told so, but did He believe it? Do you think He was trying to repent when he went back to the religious leaders and tried to get them to take back the money? Yes, but even then it was because Yeshua` was an "innocent man!" Do you think he might have regretted his choice when he went out and hanged himself? Sure he did!
There are just some things that you can't take back, though, once you've made a choice. For instance, you can't retrieve the words once you've let them past your lips (or once you've hit "post")! This is what Y'hudah found out first hand, just as did Esav (Esau)!
Hebrews 12:14-17
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
KJV
And, this is what Yochanan (John) was talking about, too:
1 John 5:16-17
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
KJV
As long as a brother sins a sin that doesn't warrant the death penalty, we are to pray for that brother's life. However, if one DOES sin a sin that warrants the death penalty, we are not to pray for his life because God SUPPORTS, indeed, INSTITUTED civil law and the death penalty!
Do you think he ever saw Yeshua` as anything more than a good man, an innocent man? He was a thief, a materialistic man, and a traitor. I don't believe that Y'hudah EVER saw Him as a KING APPARENT! Might he be given another chance? ISN'T THAT UP TO GOD?! If God is like us, no, he probably won't get a second chance. On the other hand, God is NOT like us (fortunately), and He gave US a second chance (and a third and a fourth and a ...), didn't He?! So, are YOU willing to speak for God? I'm not!
Shalom, Polt.
I'm afraid you're forgetting about the dimension of TIME, again. Not every Jew was present during the Messiah's lifetime, was he? Certainly not the Jews of the second century through the 21st century! Do you think that somehow they're all privy to that information? Do you really think that their teachers remembered that, let alone communicated it?Polt said:
As far as "digging my hole deeper," since it's all upside-down, I'm really going upward, and it's YOU who is topsy-turvy! Besides, who determines what is "unChristian" about the nature of my theology? YOU?! I don't think so. Just because it's not mainstream doesn't mean that it's "unChristian." And, it's not being "inflammatory"; it's being "HISTORIC!" That is PRECISELY the rhetoric of so-called Christians down through the years as they justified themselves being anti-Semitic!
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." - Jesus.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Did someone forget to tell Jesus that Judas is a Jew?
Every Jew in the world from the second century the through 21st century knows of Jesus. And, everyone of them have the proof that Jesus is the Messiah because God took away the Temple. Besides, your argument is a red herring. Jesus presented Himself as the Messiah while he was in the land of Israel. And, if Dispensationalists are Christians, they're the only Christians who deny Jesus claimed to be the Messiah. And, if Dispensationalists are Christians, they're the only Christians who believe in salvation through converting to an expressly unchristian religion.Retrobyter said:
Even the "Christian cults" rarely promote any doctrine less Christian that Dispensationalism. And, if I can't call that doctrine unchristian, then no one has any business calling any belief unchristian.
You didn't waste anytime to play the "anti-semite" card or to conjure up thoughts of the Holocaust ("kill all the Jews."). Is there no better defense of your doctrine than being gratuitously inflammatory with statements that have absolutely nothing to do with your doctrine?
Polt said:
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
As a Torah observant Jew, don't you think you should adhere to the law as given in the ten words.Retrobyter said:
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (Exodus 20:16) Also,
There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
—Proverbs 6:16-19
The command against false testimony is seen as a natural consequence of the command to “love your neighbor as yourself.” This moral prescription flows from the command for holy people to bear witness to their deity. Offenses against the truth express by word or deed a refusal to commit oneself to moral uprightness: they are fundamental infidelities to God and, in this sense, they undermine the foundations of covenant with God.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Polt.
I think it is EXTREMELY IRONIC that you would ask, "Did someone forget to tell Jesus that Judas is a Jew?" His name is "Y'hudah" and the word "Jew" in Hebrew is "Yhudiy!" which is the possessive form of "Y'hudah!"
You are a victim of poor teaching and poor definitions. Just what do you think the word "Messiah" (or "Christ") means? Yeshua` said,...
John 4:22
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
KJV
Do you even understand what He meant?
I doubt you even understand what a "red herring" is because that's defined as "something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue"; however, you are just ignoring the fact that this is CRUCIAL to their understanding that such a Messiah ever came! And, your statement "everyone of them have the proof that Jesus is the Messiah because God took away the Temple," is the REAL red herring! You know what they understand about God taking away the Temple? They understand that "there is no more Temple," period! They do NOT know about Yeshua` being the Messiah (or as "Christians" would say, Jesus being the Christ) because there are three great hurdles they must jump, first:
1. They must believe that Yeshua` existed.
2. They must believe that Yeshua` was/is the promised Messiah.
3. They must believe that Yeshua` was/is the Son of God.
They have no remorse for His death, because they don't know that it even MATTERS, let alone that their ancestors were responsible or that they, through their ancestors, also bear the responsibility!
Why do you think Z'kharyahu's prophecy in Zechariah 12:7-14 is so important?
Zechariah 12:7-14
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV
After our Lord returns, they see the wounds in His hands and feet and in His side and realize the gravity of their ancestors' actions! It will be THEN that they break down as they discover the seriousness of the crucifixion!
However, there is one more hurdle that is placed before them that they really shouldn't have had to jump:
4. They must understand that "Jesus Christ" means "Yeshua` the Messiah."
This is a language barrier that they shouldn't have to overcome; however, it is also a language barrier from the "Christian" side of things because Christians also don't understand that "Yeshua` the Messiah" is what is meant by "Jesus Christ!" Many who profess to know "Jesus Christ as personal Savior" think "Christ" is Jesus' LAST NAME! This is to the shame of every last preacher, pastor, and teacher of God's Word! How can they HOPE to explain this to the children of Isra'el when THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW IT THEMSELVES?!
Finally, as I've already said, I am not a Dispensationalist, but I'll tell ya what: Why don't you take a moment and define what a "Dispensationalist" is, just so we know that YOU know, okay?
Shabbat shalom, JB_Reformed Baptist.
I'm not that much of a "Torah observant Jew." I am a MESSIANIC Jew! That's a BIG difference! I'm only "Torah observant" because I think it's good for me and I think it's a good idea to follow GOD'S principles written in the Torah (the Pentateuch), but to each one as the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) leads. However, only Yeshua` was fully "Torah observant" and yet died as the "just for the unjust."
1 Peter 3:14-20
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV
Three times you have accused me of being a liar in both the verses you have quoted and those portions you've highlighted, but don't YOU know that "bearing false witness against your neighbor" is claiming that he is a liar without proof?! The commandment is NOT about just "lying"; it's SPECIFICALLY about "lying about your neighbor!"
Meanwhile, talk about "the pot calling the kettle black!"
And, it is in Yeshua`s words that we have the closest answer to the fate of Y'hudah (Judas): He was said to be a "son of perdition," which means a "son of (or an heir to) ruin or loss." It's the Greek word "apooleia." However, even here, Yeshua` may have been talking about Y'hudah's PHYSICAL ruin or loss as opposed to some kind of "spiritual" ruin or loss. Out of all His disciples, Y'hudah is the ONLY ONE who committed suicide! He is the ONLY ONE whose life came to an unprofitable end.Polt said:
I think it is EXTREMELY IRONIC that you would ask, "Did someone forget to tell Jesus that Judas is a Jew?" His name is "Y'hudah" and the word "Jew" in Hebrew is "Yhudiy!" which is the possessive form of "Y'hudah!"
You are a victim of poor teaching and poor definitions. Just what do you think the word "Messiah" (or "Christ") means? Yeshua` said,...
John 4:22
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
KJV
Do you even understand what He meant?
I doubt you even understand what a "red herring" is because that's defined as "something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue"; however, you are just ignoring the fact that this is CRUCIAL to their understanding that such a Messiah ever came! And, your statement "everyone of them have the proof that Jesus is the Messiah because God took away the Temple," is the REAL red herring! You know what they understand about God taking away the Temple? They understand that "there is no more Temple," period! They do NOT know about Yeshua` being the Messiah (or as "Christians" would say, Jesus being the Christ) because there are three great hurdles they must jump, first:
1. They must believe that Yeshua` existed.
2. They must believe that Yeshua` was/is the promised Messiah.
3. They must believe that Yeshua` was/is the Son of God.
They have no remorse for His death, because they don't know that it even MATTERS, let alone that their ancestors were responsible or that they, through their ancestors, also bear the responsibility!
Why do you think Z'kharyahu's prophecy in Zechariah 12:7-14 is so important?
Zechariah 12:7-14
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV
After our Lord returns, they see the wounds in His hands and feet and in His side and realize the gravity of their ancestors' actions! It will be THEN that they break down as they discover the seriousness of the crucifixion!
However, there is one more hurdle that is placed before them that they really shouldn't have had to jump:
4. They must understand that "Jesus Christ" means "Yeshua` the Messiah."
This is a language barrier that they shouldn't have to overcome; however, it is also a language barrier from the "Christian" side of things because Christians also don't understand that "Yeshua` the Messiah" is what is meant by "Jesus Christ!" Many who profess to know "Jesus Christ as personal Savior" think "Christ" is Jesus' LAST NAME! This is to the shame of every last preacher, pastor, and teacher of God's Word! How can they HOPE to explain this to the children of Isra'el when THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW IT THEMSELVES?!
Finally, as I've already said, I am not a Dispensationalist, but I'll tell ya what: Why don't you take a moment and define what a "Dispensationalist" is, just so we know that YOU know, okay?
Shabbat shalom, JB_Reformed Baptist.
JB_Reformed Baptist said:
I'm not that much of a "Torah observant Jew." I am a MESSIANIC Jew! That's a BIG difference! I'm only "Torah observant" because I think it's good for me and I think it's a good idea to follow GOD'S principles written in the Torah (the Pentateuch), but to each one as the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) leads. However, only Yeshua` was fully "Torah observant" and yet died as the "just for the unjust."
1 Peter 3:14-20
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV
Three times you have accused me of being a liar in both the verses you have quoted and those portions you've highlighted, but don't YOU know that "bearing false witness against your neighbor" is claiming that he is a liar without proof?! The commandment is NOT about just "lying"; it's SPECIFICALLY about "lying about your neighbor!"
Meanwhile, talk about "the pot calling the kettle black!"
Retrobyter said:
Retrobyter, on 27 Apr 2013 - 06:37 undefined, said:
But, that's Christianity! "Kill all the Jews because they're 'Christ-killers' and don't explain ANYTHING! It takes too long, and we don't want to be bothered!"
What does this statement mean then. I know, don't tell me, you have a number of interpretations that one can get from this statement depending on the direction of the discussion/debate, right?
Note: Sweeping statements against another or other human being(s) is 'bearing false witness' as it doesn't testify to the facts of each individual and/or case.
For all your twaddle, and claim/inference to superior learning because you're a Jew and a so-called believing one at that amounts to nothing. Christ did testify to the Jews of his time that he was and is the Messiah/mashiach, not of the Jews only, but of the whole world.
As Paul the Apostle a Jew rightly said:
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Romans 9:6-8
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shabbat shalom, JB_Reformed Baptist.
Get a grip, bro! If you don't know what you're upset about, take a chill pill until you learn!
What are you balking about?! First of all, I said "so-called Christians." These are those who are/were "Christians" in NAME ONLY! They were those who CLAIMED the name of Christ, but then treated others HORRIBLY! No love for one's neighbor there! Ever hear of "Pogroms" or "Purges" or "Inquisitions" or "Persecutions?" Many of these were done "IN THE NAME OF CHRIST!" How many Jews were killed during the second and third centuries by those who claimed to be "Christians?" How many times did Crusaders forsake their missions to the Holy Land to settle for killing Jews (and Muslims) in towns and villages on the way? How many Russian Jews were killed in the Pogroms? How many Jews AND true Christians were killed in the Holy Roman Inquisitions?JB_Reformed Baptist said:
Get a grip, bro! If you don't know what you're upset about, take a chill pill until you learn!
You don't read closely do you? Check the bottom NOTE to have it in context.Retrobyter said:
Retrobyter, on 27 Apr 2013 - 06:37 undefined, said:
Read in context and tell me what I said to you doesn't apply.Retrobyter said:
Anyone with half a brain can see what your inferring and indeed have stated. You could be called a divisive person.
No amount of word play is going to change that.
There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
—Proverbs 6:16-19
Hi Retrobyter,
Before I address the sentence I quoted, I'd just like to say I always appreciate your 'Shalom' greeting, and ask whether you are intending it in the New Covenant context, which the writer to the Hebrews obliquely implies in the following ... ?
Hebrews 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Not that we wish this upon one another, but rather, we wish upon one another the kind of prosperity which Jesus described in Matthew 5:10, 11, 12, 13.
According to Paul in Galatians 3:8, 14, this 'blessing' is what God was really talking about when He promised to 'bless' Jacob's descendants. Your quotation of Zechariah no doubt applies to every descendant of Jacob who suddenly 'gets' what the preacher/prophet is saying. That stabbing in the heart which happened on the day of Pentecost to the Jews hearing Peter, was a manifestation of the same truth dawning on their souls.
This is what I was getting at in my previous post (# 114) in this thread. How do you answer that question?
Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
I do not wish to be unkind at all, but I ask the following with all seriousness, especially in the light of veteran's leaning towards the idea that all/some Pharisees were not flesh descendants of Jacob, but may have been of 'other' parentage: what difference does it make 'who' is in unbelief?
Back in Isaiah 59:20, the prophecy clearly states that the Deliverer/Redeemer will come ... to those who turn from iniquity 'in Jacob'.
This is the same choice which existed in every generation from Moses onwards, but what did Elijah find? He was so isolated, he thought he was the only one who was hearing from God. But God was in relationship with seven thousand others.
I don't know how easy it is for a 'Jew' or an Israelite to become a Christian in isolation. Certainly I imagine they would face persecution, and the natural thing to do is flee - which is what Jesus had told the disciples to do (before He ascended) - and yet that is the opposite of some of His other teaching:
Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. 37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: 38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again...
It seems to me that we are seeing again in our day, what Jeremiah prophesied so often to his own generation: that to those who refused to turn from their idolatry, God sends (at the very least, He allows) a great fearfulness to overtake the disobedient, and He also carries out the punishments about which He has forewarned them many times. There must be some descendants of Jacob who are capable of saying, 'Wait a minute! Didn't we read about why we would feel like this back in the prophets? What is God trying to say to us? What instruction are we ignoring?'
The big difference between Jacob himself, and many of his descendants, is that he promised to serve God, if God would save his life. There is not one Christian alive who does not have a similar moment, because they are genuinely seeking to be acknowledged by God. But I think we all know we are not talking about our physical life when it comes to the crunch. What we mean is, let me be found worthy of resurrection to eternal life.
God has every intention of 'rescuing' those who turn to Him, but there is no other offer.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shabbat shalom, dragonfly.
Wow. Let me talk first about your next-to-last paragraph: First, a question: Do you believe in a literal resurrection? I mean, when the Messiah returns, do you expect our loved ones to come out of their graves? Or, do you believe that "resurrection" is just a fancy term for "going to Heaven when we die?"
I've been hearing this a lot in various contexts, such as the modern song, "Resurrection," sung by Nicol Sponberg. That's NOT resurrection.
I've also heard proponents for a "Heaven-bound" departure at death make the statement that we are THEN resurrected to new life. That is also NOT resurrection. That's kind of what I'm hearing you say in the paragraph above when you say, "But I think we all know we are not talking about our physical life when it comes to crunch. What we mean is, let me be found worthy of resurrection to eternal life."
That's not what you mean, is it? Because, if you do, then you are NOT advocating a literal resurrection but some feeble mockery of it.
I await your answer before I continue.
Wow. Let me talk first about your next-to-last paragraph: First, a question: Do you believe in a literal resurrection? I mean, when the Messiah returns, do you expect our loved ones to come out of their graves? Or, do you believe that "resurrection" is just a fancy term for "going to Heaven when we die?"
I've been hearing this a lot in various contexts, such as the modern song, "Resurrection," sung by Nicol Sponberg. That's NOT resurrection.
I've also heard proponents for a "Heaven-bound" departure at death make the statement that we are THEN resurrected to new life. That is also NOT resurrection. That's kind of what I'm hearing you say in the paragraph above when you say, "But I think we all know we are not talking about our physical life when it comes to crunch. What we mean is, let me be found worthy of resurrection to eternal life."
That's not what you mean, is it? Because, if you do, then you are NOT advocating a literal resurrection but some feeble mockery of it.
I await your answer before I continue.
You're correct as far as 'how' those ascended from Darby's ideas are wrong about the idea of dispensations in God's Word, yet the idea of dispensations is a Biblical doctrine from Apostle Paul, just not the same meaning as what modern Dispensationalists claim.Polt said:
Any idea that Israelites could be saved without believing on our Lord Jesus Christ never was part of Apostle Paul's idea of dispensations. Instead, their idea was developed by those like Darby to try and give support for their Pre-trib Secret Rapture theory, a false plug in attempt to justify the Gentile Church being raptured out while Israel stays to go through the tribulation.
The Isaiah Scripture Apostle Paul was quoting from in Romans 11:25-26 includes a condition for the saved of Israel, "them that turn from transgression in Jacob" (Isa.59:20). I don't see anyone here addressing that condition applied to Israel that goes with what Apostle Paul said in Romans 11:25-26 about all Israel being saved. Denying Jesus of Nazareth is God's Promised Saviour and His Sacrifice on the cross definitely is a transgression.
The main difference like I showed from Scripture about Israel's gathering when Christ returns is that the rebellious unbelieving of Israel are still going to be gathered, but will be in a state of condemnation throughout Christ's Millennium reign. That definitely is not a 'saved' condition for that future time. If any of Israel remain in an unbelief condition to the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign, then they will perish along with the wicked at the end of it. So those like Retrobyter are very wrong concerning Israel being saved just because of being a flesh-born Israelite. An Israelite of the seed must confess Jesus Christ as The Saviour also, for there is no other way of Salvation.
Hi veteran,
This was in my previous post:
Shalom, Retrobyter,
I was talking about this resurrection:
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
.
This was in my previous post:
Shalom, Retrobyter,
I was talking about this resurrection:
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shabbat shalom, JB_Reformed Baptist.
Matthew 10:34-36
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
KJV
Okay. Let's look at the two statements I made and, without "word play," I will show you how they can both be true:
And, THEN...
(Jehovah's Witnesses are a good case in point: Have you ever tried to talk theology with a Jehovah's Witness? The FIRST order of business is to establish common ground in definitions, because the words and phrases he or she will use will be the same words and phrases you use but with ENTIRELY DIFFERENT MEANINGS! You've got to establish some common ground for communication, or you'll never truly get through to him or her.)
Two thousand years of baby steps away from the Scriptures have lead to the mess we're in today. Some of those baby steps took place early in history, like the eradication of the "Christ-killers." To get that far, these Christians (in name only) left the teaching of "love your enemies" to justify their actions against the Jews and those they labeled as "heretics." But, even those steps were enough of a discrepancy to divide the churches into warring factions, and it was then that we have the first emergence of separate denominations.
However, in the division, not all of the factions had a clear picture in their minds of what they believed, and this fostered more divisions as certain points were emphasized from year to year, decade to decade, century to century. Yet, through it all, God preserved a people who were true believers (regardless the denomination), and I point to that great work, Foxe's Book of Martyrs, for the details down through the centuries. In fact, ANY book on early church history is going to be FILLED with accounts of these unbelievers who infiltrated the churches and treated the denominational factions as warring nations. So much of the history is about these flamboyant personalities and factions that it is extremely difficult to see what was actually going on with true believers. It's like trying to get an accurate report of Isra'el today from the liberal media!
There's a cartoon I'm remembering that showed three frames of Gaza bombing Isra'el with a barrage of missiles, then in the last frame, Isra'el sends one bomb back to Gaza, and the news reporter is saying, "Isra'el attacked Gaza today!" I mean, c'mon! Who else but Isra'el drops flyers all over Gaza, WARNING them first of an impending, surgical strike?!
In the same way, you have to read between the lines to find out what was ACTUALLY going on with God's believing people when reading a typical, church-history book.
Please understand me; I am separating between the believers - the PEOPLE - and the organizations - the DENOMINATIONS, the CHURCHES - which are what I'm talking about when I'm talking about "the doctrine of modern Christianity." It is the teachings of the various churches that have lead to a PLETHORA of problems!
An "ekkleesia" is simply a "group" of believers, but...
a "church," especially a "Church," is a monstrosity that has evolved/devolved into the slimy - yechh! - that we have today!
Shabbat shalom, dragonfly.
Back to the subject,...
Throughout the OT, we can read that God put a difference between the children of Isra'el and all the other nations of the world. He was going to work with the Isra'eli people to provide restitution for the world through them. They were to become a "kingdom of priests, and an holy nation":
Exodus 19:1-8
19 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him.
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.
KJV
But, God would not force them to do rightly, and they failed in keeping their end of this covenant. They did NOT obey His voice indeed! However, God did not write them off completely. Instead, the focus went to those who were righteous in each generation for four hundred years, while He worked with them through judges who would lead them out of oppression and send them into a new oppression when the sinned again. Finally, during the years of Sh'mu'el the prophet, God turned His focus more sharply on the faithful king David. Despite his failings and sins, God raised him up to be king over all Isra'el and then his son Shlomo after him. Because he was a "man after God's own heart," God made a covenant with him that "there shall not fail thee ... a man on the throne of Israel":
1 Kings 2:1-4
2 Now the days of David drew nigh that he should die; and he charged Solomon his son, saying,
2 I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man;
3 And keep the charge of the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:
4 That the Lord may continue his word which he spake concerning me, saying, If thy children take heed to their way, to walk before me in truth with all their heart and with all their soul, there shall not fail thee (said he) a man on the throne of Israel.
KJV
Indeed, God had said it one better than this:
Psalm 89:18-37
18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV
Of course, Yeshua` fulfilled this prophecy and called YHWH Elohiym, the LORD God, His Father for He was (and is) indeed the Son of God!
NOW,...
We can add to this the NT information that...
Romans 10:12-11:5
12 ... there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
KJV
But, within this chapter from the epistle to the Romans, we MUST have a correct view on what the word "saved" means. It means "rescued" or "delivered" and has NOTHING directly to do with personal justification by God! It is about a "RESCUE" that the Messiah will perform on behalf of His people when He returns! If you can hold onto that thought while you're reading Romans 10, you'll have a better understanding of the chapter!
Add to this the information we have from other sources:
Galatians 3:21-29
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV
Galatians 5:2-6
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
KJV
Galatians 6:14-16
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
KJV
Ephesians 2:1-3:7
2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
KJV
HOWEVER, we must also recognize that this oneness that we believers all have "in Christ" or "within the Messiah" is a NEW relationship that is superimposed upon the first and that it is only true for those who are "IN Christ!" We are NOT told ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURES that "there's no difference between Jews and Gentiles OUTSIDE of Christ!" Yet, some will ASSUME that this is true.
Thus, we have THREE segments to the world's population, not just two:
1. Gentiles outside of Christ,
2. Jews outside of Christ, and
3. those in Christ.
It's not just the dichotomy of saved/unsaved or believer/unbeliever or Jew/Gentile. It's a TRICHOTOMY! And, just as we know that there is a difference between those in Christ and Gentiles outside of Christ, there is also a difference between Jews outside of Christ and Gentiles outside of Christ. And currently, to complete the picture, there is also a difference between those in Christ and Jews outside of Christ.
This trichotomy can be seen in Romans 11. To use Paul's analogy, there are the natural and wild branches grafted into the Olive Tree; the natural olive branches that have not been grafted into the Olive Tree; and the wild branches that have not been grafted into the Olive Tree.
Paul has this to say about the natural olive branches that have not been grafted into the Olive Tree:
Romans 11:23-29
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV
Thus, it is the gospel or good news that separates those in Christ from all those outside of Christ, but it is the ELECTION that separates between the Jews outside of Christ from the Gentiles outside of Christ!
What's wrong with being "divisive?" Wasn't Yeshua` Himself "divisive?"JB_Reformed Baptist said:You don't read closely do you? Check the bottom NOTE to have it in context.
Retrobyter, on 27 Apr 2013 - 06:37 undefined, said:
Read in context and tell me what I said to you doesn't apply.
Anyone with half a brain can see what your inferring and indeed have stated. You could be called a divisive person.
No amount of word play is going to change that.
There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
—Proverbs 6:16-19
Matthew 10:34-36
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
KJV
Okay. Let's look at the two statements I made and, without "word play," I will show you how they can both be true:
And, THEN...
Together in this order, we have the "concise history" of modern Christianity, and I'm talking about over the last 2000 years or so. Modern Christianity has been evolving (devolving?) over those 2000 years, mutating into something that is foreign to much of the Scriptures, but in such a way that it SOUNDS like it's still in sync with them.
(Jehovah's Witnesses are a good case in point: Have you ever tried to talk theology with a Jehovah's Witness? The FIRST order of business is to establish common ground in definitions, because the words and phrases he or she will use will be the same words and phrases you use but with ENTIRELY DIFFERENT MEANINGS! You've got to establish some common ground for communication, or you'll never truly get through to him or her.)
Two thousand years of baby steps away from the Scriptures have lead to the mess we're in today. Some of those baby steps took place early in history, like the eradication of the "Christ-killers." To get that far, these Christians (in name only) left the teaching of "love your enemies" to justify their actions against the Jews and those they labeled as "heretics." But, even those steps were enough of a discrepancy to divide the churches into warring factions, and it was then that we have the first emergence of separate denominations.
However, in the division, not all of the factions had a clear picture in their minds of what they believed, and this fostered more divisions as certain points were emphasized from year to year, decade to decade, century to century. Yet, through it all, God preserved a people who were true believers (regardless the denomination), and I point to that great work, Foxe's Book of Martyrs, for the details down through the centuries. In fact, ANY book on early church history is going to be FILLED with accounts of these unbelievers who infiltrated the churches and treated the denominational factions as warring nations. So much of the history is about these flamboyant personalities and factions that it is extremely difficult to see what was actually going on with true believers. It's like trying to get an accurate report of Isra'el today from the liberal media!
There's a cartoon I'm remembering that showed three frames of Gaza bombing Isra'el with a barrage of missiles, then in the last frame, Isra'el sends one bomb back to Gaza, and the news reporter is saying, "Isra'el attacked Gaza today!" I mean, c'mon! Who else but Isra'el drops flyers all over Gaza, WARNING them first of an impending, surgical strike?!
In the same way, you have to read between the lines to find out what was ACTUALLY going on with God's believing people when reading a typical, church-history book.
Please understand me; I am separating between the believers - the PEOPLE - and the organizations - the DENOMINATIONS, the CHURCHES - which are what I'm talking about when I'm talking about "the doctrine of modern Christianity." It is the teachings of the various churches that have lead to a PLETHORA of problems!
An "ekkleesia" is simply a "group" of believers, but...
a "church," especially a "Church," is a monstrosity that has evolved/devolved into the slimy - yechh! - that we have today!
Shabbat shalom, dragonfly.
Okay, thank you. Sorry for the distraction, but I've heard three viewpoints in this later-theology that erroneously use the word "resurrection," and your answer sounded slightly like one of the three; so, I felt that we had to smooth that wrinkle out, first.dragonfly said:Hi veteran,
This was in my previous post:
Shalom, Retrobyter,
I was talking about this resurrection:
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
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Back to the subject,...
Fair enough. You asked the fundamental question, "...what difference does it make 'who' is in unbelief?" It makes a WORLD of difference and here's why:dragonfly said:
Throughout the OT, we can read that God put a difference between the children of Isra'el and all the other nations of the world. He was going to work with the Isra'eli people to provide restitution for the world through them. They were to become a "kingdom of priests, and an holy nation":
Exodus 19:1-8
19 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him.
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.
KJV
But, God would not force them to do rightly, and they failed in keeping their end of this covenant. They did NOT obey His voice indeed! However, God did not write them off completely. Instead, the focus went to those who were righteous in each generation for four hundred years, while He worked with them through judges who would lead them out of oppression and send them into a new oppression when the sinned again. Finally, during the years of Sh'mu'el the prophet, God turned His focus more sharply on the faithful king David. Despite his failings and sins, God raised him up to be king over all Isra'el and then his son Shlomo after him. Because he was a "man after God's own heart," God made a covenant with him that "there shall not fail thee ... a man on the throne of Israel":
1 Kings 2:1-4
2 Now the days of David drew nigh that he should die; and he charged Solomon his son, saying,
2 I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man;
3 And keep the charge of the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:
4 That the Lord may continue his word which he spake concerning me, saying, If thy children take heed to their way, to walk before me in truth with all their heart and with all their soul, there shall not fail thee (said he) a man on the throne of Israel.
KJV
Indeed, God had said it one better than this:
Psalm 89:18-37
18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV
Of course, Yeshua` fulfilled this prophecy and called YHWH Elohiym, the LORD God, His Father for He was (and is) indeed the Son of God!
NOW,...
We can add to this the NT information that...
Romans 10:12-11:5
12 ... there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
KJV
But, within this chapter from the epistle to the Romans, we MUST have a correct view on what the word "saved" means. It means "rescued" or "delivered" and has NOTHING directly to do with personal justification by God! It is about a "RESCUE" that the Messiah will perform on behalf of His people when He returns! If you can hold onto that thought while you're reading Romans 10, you'll have a better understanding of the chapter!
Add to this the information we have from other sources:
Galatians 3:21-29
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV
Galatians 5:2-6
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
KJV
Galatians 6:14-16
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
KJV
Ephesians 2:1-3:7
2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
KJV
HOWEVER, we must also recognize that this oneness that we believers all have "in Christ" or "within the Messiah" is a NEW relationship that is superimposed upon the first and that it is only true for those who are "IN Christ!" We are NOT told ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURES that "there's no difference between Jews and Gentiles OUTSIDE of Christ!" Yet, some will ASSUME that this is true.
Thus, we have THREE segments to the world's population, not just two:
1. Gentiles outside of Christ,
2. Jews outside of Christ, and
3. those in Christ.
It's not just the dichotomy of saved/unsaved or believer/unbeliever or Jew/Gentile. It's a TRICHOTOMY! And, just as we know that there is a difference between those in Christ and Gentiles outside of Christ, there is also a difference between Jews outside of Christ and Gentiles outside of Christ. And currently, to complete the picture, there is also a difference between those in Christ and Jews outside of Christ.
This trichotomy can be seen in Romans 11. To use Paul's analogy, there are the natural and wild branches grafted into the Olive Tree; the natural olive branches that have not been grafted into the Olive Tree; and the wild branches that have not been grafted into the Olive Tree.
Paul has this to say about the natural olive branches that have not been grafted into the Olive Tree:
Romans 11:23-29
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV
Thus, it is the gospel or good news that separates those in Christ from all those outside of Christ, but it is the ELECTION that separates between the Jews outside of Christ from the Gentiles outside of Christ!
Dragonfly,
Yeah, I saw your quote of Isaiah 59:20 after I did my post. Glad you're on the ball.
JB, Dragonfly,
Don't let those like Retrobyter fool you. There's been just as many devout orthodox Jews that have persecuted their own, and Christianity as there have been so-called Christians persecuting Jews. In many European states the Christian authorities made the Jews leave their country, becoming exiled. That's how a lot of the Jews in earlier centuries began going back to Jerusalem. The Spanish Inquisition persecuted anyone that became under their suspicion, not just Jews. One of the problems of that time in European history were those who practiced black magic and the occult arts. Once the Church of that time discovered that problem, they went overboard.
In Britain, authorities in the Christian Church had some of their own brethren executed, especially those Christian scholars that sought to get copies of God's Word out to the peoples.
Thus Retrobyter's attempt to ostracize Christianity by the idea of killing Jews is vanity.
Yeah, I saw your quote of Isaiah 59:20 after I did my post. Glad you're on the ball.
JB, Dragonfly,
Don't let those like Retrobyter fool you. There's been just as many devout orthodox Jews that have persecuted their own, and Christianity as there have been so-called Christians persecuting Jews. In many European states the Christian authorities made the Jews leave their country, becoming exiled. That's how a lot of the Jews in earlier centuries began going back to Jerusalem. The Spanish Inquisition persecuted anyone that became under their suspicion, not just Jews. One of the problems of that time in European history were those who practiced black magic and the occult arts. Once the Church of that time discovered that problem, they went overboard.
In Britain, authorities in the Christian Church had some of their own brethren executed, especially those Christian scholars that sought to get copies of God's Word out to the peoples.
Thus Retrobyter's attempt to ostracize Christianity by the idea of killing Jews is vanity.
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