The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[Rex]

Retro

Your post side steps the central theme of the OT which is Christ. The prophets predicted his rejection, his being forsaken by his brethren. The OT is pointing to the coming of the Messiah and to believe that because many failed to know the time of their visitation doesn't equate to a do over. But it does equate to salvation threw grace to those that believe. A do over as I call would be in effect as you believe that Gods intended plan for the Jews was not realized. It was salvation is of the Jews threw the seed of David and the Jews delivered it to the Gentiles.

You know as well as I do that time line is in reference to the grace bestowed on Israel of the OT, those God chose to demonstrate his purpose and plan for salvation threw. This time line is in reference to the new covenant not by the law but by grace.


24 “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.


God looked over the sins of the past, Romans 3:25-28 ESV Yet you continue to boast in the flesh of Jacob

Matthew 18
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.


What does this parable represent to you? I don't believe its an abstract number Jesus drew out of a hat but it's in reference to Daniel 9:24-27 70 weeks. But it is speaking of the forbearance of God to the Jews.
The Lord came to settle the accounts of the slaves in his care "Israel" to set them free to choose for themselves to become a bond servant unto the master. Some received the promise spoken through Jeremiah 31;31-34

In short Jesus came to settle the account with the Jews who were tasked with the law, their sins being over looked threw faith and not imputed until the true high priest had prepared for them first, the atonement once and for all. Heb 10:10 and upon believing by grace Eph 1:13-14

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Dragonfly,

Yeah, I saw your quote of Isaiah 59:20 after I did my post. Glad you're on the ball.


JB, Dragonfly,

Don't let those like Retrobyter fool you. There's been just as many devout orthodox Jews that have persecuted their own, and Christianity as there have been so-called Christians persecuting Jews. In many European states the Christian authorities made the Jews leave their country, becoming exiled. That's how a lot of the Jews in earlier centuries began going back to Jerusalem. The Spanish Inquisition persecuted anyone that became under their suspicion, not just Jews. One of the problems of that time in European history were those who practiced black magic and the occult arts. Once the Church of that time discovered that problem, they went overboard.

In Britain, authorities in the Christian Church had some of their own brethren executed, especially those Christian scholars that sought to get copies of God's Word out to the peoples.

Thus Retrobyter's attempt to ostracize Christianity by the idea of killing Jews is vanity.

Exactly, Bro. What our little resident programmer is ignorant of is there are some of us that can determine by the use of words in a particular context, what the intent of the speaker is. SHALOM

 

[jiggyfly]

Plan, yes. One of his children? No.

Then he was obedient to God's plan and is going to be punished for it???

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Then he was obedient to God's plan and is going to be punished for it???

Being part of a plan doesn't mean being obedient to a plan. GOD is able to, and does, use man's disobedience to accomplish his purposes..

 

[jiggyfly]

Being part of a plan doesn't mean being obedient to a plan. GOD is able to, and does, use man's disobedience to accomplish his purposes..

All righty then, lol. Did he carry out God's plan and purpose?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

All righty then, lol. Did he carry out God's plan and purpose?

Judas did what he wanted to do, but not what GOD wanted him to do. GOD wants all men to be obedient and do good; but he doesn't go against their wishes when they choose to rebel and do evil. GOD knew what Judas would choose to do and used his rebellion for his own purpose..

 

[jiggyfly]

Judas did what he wanted to do, but not what GOD wanted him to do. GOD wants all men to be obedient and do good; but he doesn't go against their wishes when they choose to rebel and do evil. GOD knew what Judas would choose to do and used his rebellion for his own purpose..

So then do you believe that it was not God's plan for Judas to do what he did?

 

[Polt]

So then do you believe that it was not God's plan for Judas to do what he did?

Have you not learned of the concept of God using everything for good? Making lemonade out of lemons, so to speak? Judas helped the Jews kill Jesus, thereby defying God's will. But, God planned around Judas's disobedience.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So then do you believe that it was not God's plan for Judas to do what he did?

I believe it wasn't GOD's will for Judas to do evil. He knew Judas would choose evil and used that decision in his plan to redeem mankind. GOD can't keep people from choosing to do evil. And one can't fault him for using evil people's actions in his plans to do good. Judas, though, is still responsible for his evil deed.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone.

It's really simple if you separate the two words. Y'hudah (Judas) was in God's Plan but he was not doing God's Will. God's Will is what God Wants! God had perfectly planned for Y'hudah's betrayal, but obviously Y'hudah did what he did AGAINST what God had laid out in the Scriptures for how people should treat one another.

This was one of my first studies back in the late 1970s. God's WILL, what God WANTS people to do, is revealed in the Scriptures as RIGHTEOUSNESS! What is in God's PLAN is HIS ALONE! He reveals that to NO ONE outside of the prophecies!

People who ask to know God's Will are really asking to know God's PLAN! But, HE'S NOT GOING TO TELL THEM! And, if they really wanted to know His WILL then all they need to do is read what He considers RIGHTEOUSNESS!

Hope this helps.

 

[veteran]

If we cannot know anything about God's Will per His Plan of Salvation, then He sure wasted a lot of time showing us from Genesis through Revelation.

 

[jiggyfly]

I believe it wasn't GOD's will for Judas to do evil. He knew Judas would choose evil and used that decision in his plan to redeem mankind. GOD can't keep people from choosing to do evil. And one can't fault him for using evil people's actions in his plans to do good. Judas, though, is still responsible for his evil deed.

So then you must believe that what happen, happen outside of God's will. Do you believe that God is sovereign?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So then you must believe that what happen, happen outside of God's will. Do you believe that God is sovereign?

GOD wills that all men be saved, but cannot usurp man's will if man chooses to go another way. GOD is sovereign and can do anything he wants, but he obviously constrains himself regarding certain things like doing evil, usurping man's free will, etc. As an example, Jesus said before the cross that he could call for 12 legions of angels to defend him, and they would obey, but he chose not to do so.

 

[jiggyfly]

GOD wills that all men be saved, but cannot usurp man's will if man chooses to go another way. GOD is sovereign and can do anything he wants, but he obviously constrains himself regarding certain things like doing evil, usurping man's free will, etc. As an example, Jesus said before the cross that he could call for 12 legions of angels to defend him, and they would obey, but he chose not to do so.

Do you have any scripture to show that God doesn't usurp Man's free will?

Did you decide who your parents would be, or the color of your hair and eyes?

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Do you have any scripture to show that God doesn't usurp Man's free will?

Did you decide who your parents would be, or the color of your hair and eyes?

You sound reformed.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Do you have any scripture to show that God doesn't usurp Man's free will?

Did you decide who your parents would be, or the color of your hair and eyes?

If I understood the significance of your questions I could respond.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

If I understood the significance of your questions I could respond.

Maybe it's in regard to post #133?

 

[Rex]

Do you have any scripture to show that God doesn't usurp Man's free will?

Did you decide who your parents would be, or the color of your hair and eyes?

Your going off into nether nether land with your parent and eye color augment.

How about the Parable of the sower explained.

18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

Or just the same the parable of the weeds says, "an enemy came in and sowed weeds among the wheat".

Are ether of these parables speaking of Universalism or Calvinism? God could just as easily made everyone righteous and unable to turn or choose but the facts is He's growing a crop and hes inspecting the fruit of the heart and mind.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Shalom, Michael V Pardo.



Good points. Many who call themselves "Christians" have never even HEARD of the fact that there were 613 commandments! They may "know" that there are ten commandments, but seldom does any one of them know all ten! And, "KEEP" them? Forget it! They will even make EXCUSES for why they no longer have to keep them! So, in effect, they don't even know what they think they no longer have to keep! They have FAILED to "remember the pit from which they were dug," if that's how they choose to look at those commandments.

Perhaps it would be a good thing to rehearse the Song of Moses or HaShiyraah Mosheh:


Exodus 15:1-19

15 1 Then Moshe and the people of Isra’el sang this song to Adonai:

“I will sing to Adonai, for he is highly exalted:
the horse and its rider he threw in the sea.

2 Yah is my strength and my song,
and he has become my salvation.
This is my God: I will glorify him;
my father’s God: I will exalt him.
3 Adonai is a warrior;
Adonai is his name.

4 Pharaoh’s chariots and his army
he hurled into the sea.
His elite commanders
were drowned in the Sea of Suf.
5 The deep waters covered them;
they sank to the depths like a stone.

6 Your right hand, Adonai, is sublimely powerful;
your right hand, Adonai, shatters the foe.
7 By your great majesty you bring down your enemies;
you send out your wrath to consume them like stubble.

8 With a blast from your nostrils the waters piled up —
the waters stood up like a wall,
the depths of the sea became firm ground.
9 The enemy said, ‘I will pursue and overtake,
divide the spoil and gorge myself on them.
I will draw my sword; my hand will destroy them.’
10 You blew with your wind, the sea covered them,
they sank like lead in the mighty waters.

11 Who is like you, Adonai, among the mighty?
Who is like you, sublime in holiness,
awesome in praises, working wonders?

12 You reached out with your right hand:
the earth swallowed them.
13 In your love, you led the people you redeemed;
in your strength, you guided them to your holy abode.

14 The peoples have heard, and they tremble;
anguish takes hold of those living in P’leshet;
15 then the chiefs of Edom are dismayed;
trepidation seizes the heads of Mo’av;
all those living in Kena‘an are melted away.
16 Terror and dread fall on them;
by the might of your arm they are still as stone
until your people pass over, Adonai,
till the people you purchased pass over.

17 You will bring them in and plant them
on the mountain which is your heritage,
the place, Adonai, that you made your abode,
the sanctuary, Adonai, which your hands established.

18 Adonai will reign forever and ever.

19 For the horses of Pharaoh went with his chariots
and with his cavalry into the sea,
but Adonai brought the sea waters back upon them,
while the people of Isra’el walked on dry land
in the midst of the sea!”
CJB

And, it probably wouldn't hurt to add Miryam's supplement:



Exodus 15:20-21

20 Also Miryam the prophet, sister of Aharon, took a tambourine in her hand; and all the women went out after her with tambourines, dancing, 21 as Miryam sang to them:


“Sing to Adonai, for he is highly exalted!
The horse and its rider he threw in the sea!”
CJB



Actually, you "know" nothing of the sort; you "ASSUME" this all to be true. The prophecy of 2 Samu'el 7:12-16 is not talking about the Messiah or "His body," "spiritually" or otherwise! It is talking about Shlomo (Solomon)! God DID punish Shlomo when he got out of line, going after false gods, and chastened him "with the rods of men and with the blows of the sons of men!" The promise, though, is that God would not remove the Kingdom from him and verse 16 is finally talking about the Messiah Yeshua`! It's a good idea to supplement 2 Samu'el 7:12-16 with Psalm 89:

Psalm 89:1-52
1 I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
46 How long, Lord? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?
50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;
51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O Lord; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.
52 Blessed be the Lord for evermore. Amen, and Amen.
KJV

Verses 4, 29, and 36-37 are extended to David's Seed, Yeshua` haMashiach, forever! No "spiritualization" is required.

Hello Retrobyter, grace and peace to you, brother.
I seldom would have cause to disagree with you as your background qualifies you to speak from a Jewish perspective, but I'll have to disagree with you here on your latter point. But first, although the passage you quoted from Exodus may be referred to as the song of Moses, it is not the passage that I was referring to either. Bibles of gentile origin identify chapter 32 from verse 1 through 43 of the book of Deuteronomy as "the song of Moses." As there are certainly a few passages that could be identified as a song of Moses, the one in Deuteronomy chapter 32 is actually the one which utters proclamation of the charges against the nation of Israel as well as prophecy pertaining to the judgment of both Israel and the nations. That same song ends in verse 43 with the promise of atonement and grace to all His people Jew and gentile alike:
“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people;

For He will avenge the blood of His servants,
And render vengeance to His adversaries;
He will provide atonement for His land and His people.”
I suspect that the passage is not discussed in depth in most synagogues, but perhaps you're more informed about that. There remains a veil over the eyes of those still rejecting their lord and their ears are certainly blocked. I recall reading Isaiah 53 aloud while having a discussion with my co-worker and fellow in the faith, Jerome, in the immediate presence of a Jewish co-worker named Allen G. Allen literally beamed with contentment and delight while listening to the passage, but he couldn't give a reason why he should react that way, nor could he explain what the passage was about or what significance it has. I've seen this sort of thing with more than one person of Jewish lineage and God's word is just as true now as when Paul discussed this issue in his letter to the saints in Rome.
The latter point, about 2 Samuel 7:12-16, is where I would differ.The passage found partial fulfillment in the life of Solomon but if you dismiss any such passage as being Messianic because of a partial fulfillment, you end up dismissing a great deal of messianic prophecy including the passage from Isaiah about the virgin birth. 2 Samuel 7:12-14 has been accepted as Messianic for hundreds if not for thousands of years. Certainly the throne of Solomon's kingdom has not been established forever.
The author of Hebrews quotes from verse 14 of 2 Samuel 7 specifically speaking of the excellencies of Christ, not of Solomon. In dismissing the notion of the body of Christ as a universal church of believers you've deprived yourself of much of the riches of God's word. The Lord didn't appoint Apostles to congregations but for the church as a whole. The office of the Pastor is for the local congregation, but the Pastor is nothing without the Spirit of Christ within Him as we all are. We're little more than highly structured mud animated by the breath of God, and without His Spirit we can't claim to be of His Church. That Spirit is the same in all of us and when He speaks to us as a body, he doesn't say one thing to me and something different to you. God is not divided and His intent for us is that we be One not just with Him, but with each other:


20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. John 17:20-23
I love the perspective that you bring to Bible study as I also appreciate that of other born again Jews. There is a richness to be found in gaining Jewish insight to the Holy Scriptures, however there are also generations of prejudice ingrained in the modern Jewish perspective of "christianity" because of the abuses of authority dealt out with a heavy hand by the historical "churches." I don't intend to dismiss your opinions about interpretation of scripture, but I place no value in opinions when it comes to the word of God. Only God can give a correct interpretation of His Word. The scriptures come to us through the Jewish people and by the hand of Jewish scribes, but the meaning is from the One who inspired them and He isn't Jewish (though His Son was born to the Jews.) Messianic passages in the text of the Tanakh were not "cherry picked" to be verses pointing to Christ, but reveal the person of Jesus in His mission and with regard to specific issues addressed in their original context. You can't dismiss new Testament understanding because a verse or two in a Messianic passage doesn't fit your own understanding or perspective. Please consider that it was traditional Jewish perspective and understanding that was largely responsible for Christ's rejection by the Jews 2000 years ago; He wasn't the messiah they expected or wanted and in the end their hosannas turned to shouts of "crucify Him."

Shalom, Polt.


And, it is in Yeshua`s words that we have the closest answer to the fate of Y'hudah (Judas): He was said to be a "son of perdition," which means a "son of (or an heir to) ruin or loss." It's the Greek word "apooleia." However, even here, Yeshua` may have been talking about Y'hudah's PHYSICAL ruin or loss as opposed to some kind of "spiritual" ruin or loss. Out of all His disciples, Y'hudah is the ONLY ONE who committed suicide! He is the ONLY ONE whose life came to an unprofitable end.

I think it is EXTREMELY IRONIC that you would ask, "Did someone forget to tell Jesus that Judas is a Jew?" His name is "Y'hudah" and the word "Jew" in Hebrew is "Yhudiy!" which is the possessive form of "Y'hudah!"

You are a victim of poor teaching and poor definitions. Just what do you think the word "Messiah" (or "Christ") means? Yeshua` said,...

John 4:22
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
KJV

Do you even understand what He meant?

I doubt you even understand what a "red herring" is because that's defined as "something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue"; however, you are just ignoring the fact that this is CRUCIAL to their understanding that such a Messiah ever came! And, your statement "everyone of them have the proof that Jesus is the Messiah because God took away the Temple," is the REAL red herring! You know what they understand about God taking away the Temple? They understand that "there is no more Temple," period! They do NOT know about Yeshua` being the Messiah (or as "Christians" would say, Jesus being the Christ) because there are three great hurdles they must jump, first:

1. They must believe that Yeshua` existed.
2. They must believe that Yeshua` was/is the promised Messiah.
3. They must believe that Yeshua` was/is the Son of God.

They have no remorse for His death, because they don't know that it even MATTERS, let alone that their ancestors were responsible or that they, through their ancestors, also bear the responsibility!

Why do you think Z'kharyahu's prophecy in Zechariah 12:7-14 is so important?

Zechariah 12:7-14
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV

After our Lord returns, they see the wounds in His hands and feet and in His side and realize the gravity of their ancestors' actions! It will be THEN that they break down as they discover the seriousness of the crucifixion!

However, there is one more hurdle that is placed before them that they really shouldn't have had to jump:

4. They must understand that "Jesus Christ" means "Yeshua` the Messiah."

This is a language barrier that they shouldn't have to overcome; however, it is also a language barrier from the "Christian" side of things because Christians also don't understand that "Yeshua` the Messiah" is what is meant by "Jesus Christ!" Many who profess to know "Jesus Christ as personal Savior" think "Christ" is Jesus' LAST NAME! This is to the shame of every last preacher, pastor, and teacher of God's Word! How can they HOPE to explain this to the children of Isra'el when THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW IT THEMSELVES?!

Finally, as I've already said, I am not a Dispensationalist, but I'll tell ya what: Why don't you take a moment and define what a "Dispensationalist" is, just so we know that YOU know, okay?


Shabbat shalom, JB_Reformed Baptist.



I'm not that much of a "Torah observant Jew." I am a MESSIANIC Jew! That's a BIG difference! I'm only "Torah observant" because I think it's good for me and I think it's a good idea to follow GOD'S principles written in the Torah (the Pentateuch), but to each one as the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) leads. However, only Yeshua` was fully "Torah observant" and yet died as the "just for the unjust."

1 Peter 3:14-20
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

Three times you have accused me of being a liar in both the verses you have quoted and those portions you've highlighted, but don't YOU know that "bearing false witness against your neighbor" is claiming that he is a liar without proof?! The commandment is NOT about just "lying"; it's SPECIFICALLY about "lying about your neighbor!"

Meanwhile, talk about "the pot calling the kettle black!"

I think that modern Jews may know a little more about Jesus than you suggest or it may just be that the Jews I've had conversation with were somehow unique. I am acquainted with one Jewish fellow, who before he retired would have discussions with me about my faith. His name was Bob L. and though he wasn't orthodox, he would recite the great Shimah (?) every time he mentioned some technological advancement or leap forward in worldly knowledge. He would argue with me that from a Jewish perspective, Jesus was guilty of horrendous blasphemy, and that the Jews only did to Him what their law was requiring. The Colonel (retired) was a good guy, honest in his argument, and clearly had some understanding of the Jesus of scripture, yet Bob remained a Jew, was unconvinced by argument, and obviously had not come under conviction of sin personally or corporately. People naturally tend to make excuses for themselves, their families, and their nations. Admitting fault would amount to coming into agreement with God and where would that lead?

 

[Polt]

I think that modern Jews may know a little more about Jesus than you suggest or it may just be that the Jews I've had conversation with were somehow unique. I am acquainted with one Jewish fellow, who before he retired would have discussions with me about my faith. His name was Bob L. and though he wasn't orthodox, he would recite the great Shimah (?) every time he mentioned some technological advancement or leap forward in worldly knowledge. He would argue with me that from a Jewish perspective, Jesus was guilty of horrendous blasphemy, and that the Jews only did to Him what their law was requiring. The Colonel (retired) was a good guy, honest in his argument, and clearly had some understanding of the Jesus of scripture, yet Bob remained a Jew, was unconvinced by argument, and obviously had not come under conviction of sin personally or corporately. People naturally tend to make excuses for themselves, their families, and their nations. Admitting fault would amount to coming into agreement with God and where would that lead?

It doesn't help bring Jews to Christ when Dispensationalists tell Jews that Jews are first-class citizens in God's kingdom and that Christians are only second-class citizens in God's kingdom (natural and all-saved vs. adopted maybe-saved children). And, I'm still left wondering why Dispensationalists don't convert to judaism to raise their class.

If Jesus really were a false messiah, executing him was acceptable under Old Testament teaching.

But, the Jew's view of Jesus is a red herring on the issue of dispensationalism. Whatever Jews think of Jesus, the fact remains that dispensationalists believe Jews are saved in spite of rejecting Jesus, which contradicts the very core of Christian theology, which makes dispensationalists less Christian than even many so-called cults.

Any Christian would be running from the kind of thing they teach. Here's Hagee,. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBO1xKvgyio

John MacArhur, sadly considers himself to be a dispensationalist and believes, "there was a distinction between the Church and Israel." MacArther also points out that dispensationalists believe, "[there is] a distinction between the new covenant for the Church, and the new covenant for Israel." (although MacArther is unclear about whether he also believes that). Understand what dispensationalism is, there is a new covenant for the church and another new covenant for Israel. Join the church and be a second-class citizen or join Judaism (which requires rejecting Jesus) and became a first-class citizen. Could anything sound more satanic? Yet, this line of thinking has been flooding Evangelical thinking in recent decades.

Most dispensationalists aren't prepared to articulate what Hagee says. But, they believe what Hagee says, to some degree, and it's reflected in their theology.