Yes, your provocation has been your embarrassment from the beginning when the Word rebuked you and you resisted foolishly.Rex said:
Prov 27:5 applies which follows Prov 27:3 ;)
The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]
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Prov 27:5 applies which follows Prov 27:3 ;)
Hi Rex,
Yes, I did misunderstand your point. I had not had Judah in mind at all (for divorce) as it's clear He preferred to exile them for a season. RB introduced Judah, although Jeremiah was clearly not speaking to Judah when he referred to Israel as being divorced. All the way through Jeremiah's prophecies, are references to Israel and it is always distinct from Judah, for by then they had been separated for about four hundred years, Isaiah and Hosea having prophsied a hundered years earlier.
Hi Purity,
Yes, Paul was a flesh 'Jew' (of the tribe of Benjamin) but it wasn't his flesh which believed. Faith is spiritual. There is only hope for the resurrection to life for those who are willing to lay down their fleshly status. Do you understand that?
Regarding your comment about Gentiles being in the same boat as Israel or the Jews, I don't see it. The oracles of God were committed to certain men both before and after circumcision, and during the era of circumcision Israel was supposed to be the light to the Gentiles. God wasn't expecting the Gentiles AT THAT TIME to be a light to the Jews and Israel. There is a huge difference. You cannot keep flipping backwards and forwards between wanting to give Israel some kind of untouchable prominence and status, and then bring in the equalities which exist under the New Covenant, and start applying them retrospectively. That may work in literary criticism, but you can't do it with scripture. That is the whole point!
Yes, the word of God is living and active, but it is not all continually being re-enacted again and again. Some prophesies have served their purpose historically, and they are over. There will never be another flood in the way that Noah had to envisage. There will never be another Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Messiah. These people have moved on in their relationship with God in life and in death. There really is going to come a time when the door is shut, and those who are not inside with the Bridegroom will not get in some other way. They are excluded for ever. That is a fact. People need to know there will be an appointed end - a 'fulness of time', and they cannot rely on God to make a special exception of them.
Hi Arnie,
This here (in bold) is 'dual covenant theology'. It is not in scripture, even though some people think it is.
Are you referring to those who believed, only, and who kept the commandments and ordinances and laws like Abraham did, or are you throwing a net around every single person in the OT and calling them 'saved'?
No. Once He had come, He was their only hope of salvation. Everyone has to make a proper decision to believe.
To find out more, read Ephesians with your thinking cap on. And 'mystery' in chapter 5 does not mean 'sacrament'.
Yes, I did misunderstand your point. I had not had Judah in mind at all (for divorce) as it's clear He preferred to exile them for a season. RB introduced Judah, although Jeremiah was clearly not speaking to Judah when he referred to Israel as being divorced. All the way through Jeremiah's prophecies, are references to Israel and it is always distinct from Judah, for by then they had been separated for about four hundred years, Isaiah and Hosea having prophsied a hundered years earlier.
Hi Purity,
Yes, Paul was a flesh 'Jew' (of the tribe of Benjamin) but it wasn't his flesh which believed. Faith is spiritual. There is only hope for the resurrection to life for those who are willing to lay down their fleshly status. Do you understand that?
Regarding your comment about Gentiles being in the same boat as Israel or the Jews, I don't see it. The oracles of God were committed to certain men both before and after circumcision, and during the era of circumcision Israel was supposed to be the light to the Gentiles. God wasn't expecting the Gentiles AT THAT TIME to be a light to the Jews and Israel. There is a huge difference. You cannot keep flipping backwards and forwards between wanting to give Israel some kind of untouchable prominence and status, and then bring in the equalities which exist under the New Covenant, and start applying them retrospectively. That may work in literary criticism, but you can't do it with scripture. That is the whole point!
Yes, the word of God is living and active, but it is not all continually being re-enacted again and again. Some prophesies have served their purpose historically, and they are over. There will never be another flood in the way that Noah had to envisage. There will never be another Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Messiah. These people have moved on in their relationship with God in life and in death. There really is going to come a time when the door is shut, and those who are not inside with the Bridegroom will not get in some other way. They are excluded for ever. That is a fact. People need to know there will be an appointed end - a 'fulness of time', and they cannot rely on God to make a special exception of them.
Hi Arnie,
This here (in bold) is 'dual covenant theology'. It is not in scripture, even though some people think it is.
'Anyone think the OT Israelis will be in the kingdom with us??? .... I do .'
Are you referring to those who believed, only, and who kept the commandments and ordinances and laws like Abraham did, or are you throwing a net around every single person in the OT and calling them 'saved'?
You mean, after Messiah had come?
No. Once He had come, He was their only hope of salvation. Everyone has to make a proper decision to believe.
Actually, the only things Paul called a mystery, were the transformation which will occur in those who will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet, and the parallel between spouses, and Christ and the church. He said previous mysteries had been revealed to the apostles and prophets.
To find out more, read Ephesians with your thinking cap on. And 'mystery' in chapter 5 does not mean 'sacrament'.
Indeed, even unbelieving Israel is subject to being 'cut off' if they remain in unbelief, just as Apostle Paul said in the Romans 11 Scripture.
But without understanding how God separated Israel (ten tribes) apart from the house of Judah (Jews), one will completely miss how the majority of Israelites were scattered out of the holy land first, and that Christ's Apostles was speaking directly them scattered among the Gentiles, and then BOTH, those ten tribe Israelites and Gentiles who believed would together... become Christ's Church under The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those ten tribe Israelites were among the Romans in Paul's days, everywhere in Asia Minor and Europe, and the majority of them came from the "house of Israel", not the "house of Judah" (Jews) where Paul descended from.
Once that is understood per God's Word and history, then the Romans 11 chapter becomes easier to understand, and also Peter and James addressing the ten tribes.
What unbelieving Judah has tried to do is make everyone think the ten tribed Israelites joined back with them again at some point back in history, or that only they (Judah - Benjamin - Levi, or Jews) are the ONLY ones of Israel today. Neither of their ideas is true per God's Word and history of the people of Israel. The two 'houses' of Israel are still apart today, and their joining back together again when Christ comes is a major part of written Biblical prophecy.
But without understanding how God separated Israel (ten tribes) apart from the house of Judah (Jews), one will completely miss how the majority of Israelites were scattered out of the holy land first, and that Christ's Apostles was speaking directly them scattered among the Gentiles, and then BOTH, those ten tribe Israelites and Gentiles who believed would together... become Christ's Church under The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those ten tribe Israelites were among the Romans in Paul's days, everywhere in Asia Minor and Europe, and the majority of them came from the "house of Israel", not the "house of Judah" (Jews) where Paul descended from.
Once that is understood per God's Word and history, then the Romans 11 chapter becomes easier to understand, and also Peter and James addressing the ten tribes.
What unbelieving Judah has tried to do is make everyone think the ten tribed Israelites joined back with them again at some point back in history, or that only they (Judah - Benjamin - Levi, or Jews) are the ONLY ones of Israel today. Neither of their ideas is true per God's Word and history of the people of Israel. The two 'houses' of Israel are still apart today, and their joining back together again when Christ comes is a major part of written Biblical prophecy.
Hi veteran,
I expect I'm about to tread lightly on some of your dearly held beliefs but I mean no harm. I just do not understand. :)
If
I expect I'm about to tread lightly on some of your dearly held beliefs but I mean no harm. I just do not understand. :)
If
then how could both Paul and Peter write so much about believers of all kindred, tongue and nation being 'one in Christ Jesus', if it isn't true?
This is the way I see it today veteran. the promise was contained in Jacob in both the flesh and the spirit, but Jacob lead by God knew he need to separate the promise from the flesh, just as we all do. Being born of the promise in spirit, yet are condemned flesh is never fully in compliance with the spirit, that is why Paul said the corruptible must put on the incorruptible, meaning, being changed and given a new tent "body" that will not see decay or be at odds with the spirit.veteran said:
Jacob split the flesh of the "seed" singular being Christ from the promise "being salvation" between Joesph and Judah, The sum of both contained in Jacob, spirit and flesh were separated and set out to fulfill one thing, the completion of the promise in Jesus. Now this promise has been fulfilled in it's entirety through the Spirit,
but the actual flesh being reveled is yet to come, meaning we don't know with all certainty who is who. But we can't discount the fact that Jesus was the reuniting of the flesh and the promise separated by Jacob.
daq I want you to use your vast knowledge of the Torah to correct me or amend anything you disagree with, I'll listen to you. I wish I knew half what you do about the Torah.
Retrobyter
Active Member
Shalom, Rex.
Not at all, brother. I did not take offense. I enjoy our little disagreements!
_____
Shalom, Arnie.
Rex said:
Not at all, brother. I did not take offense. I enjoy our little disagreements!
_____
Shalom, Arnie.
That says it all, doesn't it? It even tells you to whom the name "Isra'el" is referring!Arnie Manitoba said:
Good.dragonfly said:
True again.
Appears so ;)
O dear you used that word oracles - that word which shall not be named ;)
Nice try though!
Jews = Heb 5:12
Jew and Gentile = Heb 5:12
Both Jew and adopted Jew are to be a light to the Gentiles.
Good point.
Lets look at your words "untouchable prominence".
What advantage does the Jew today have over the Gentile?
1. Well Paul teaches a difference between what is a natural branch and a wild branch.
2. Paul revealed everything spiritual had been given to them first i.e Oracles of God, Promises etc etc.
These two points alone need your attention.
It is better for you to go into the Word to find how God has unfinished business with Jewry...find this truth and you will be free from your misconceptions.
Wow you have much to learn.
You say "really is going to come a time when the door is shut", and yet this time has not yet come!
I am speaking of things which must surely come to pass. I could show you in the life of Sarah prophecies unfulfilled by why bother revealing to one who believes "Some prophesies have served their purpose historically, and they are over." Do you hand pick the some? Do you choose which ones are finished and which are yet to be revealed.
For example.
This prophecy will never be fulfilled by Christ again. Zech 9:9; Matt 21:2
Do we agree Jesus will not come into Jerusalem on the colt of an ass?
Because the next time Jesus returns to Jerusalem it will be in this manner! Luke 14:3,8,9 etc etc.
The Lord Jesus Christ has not become King over all the earth
This great day will be declared in the day of Inauguration, when the Lord Jesus is proclaimed by the voice from Heaven, as declared in Psa 2:6-7. the proclamation that Yahweh reigns on earth as universal monarch in the person of His Son will be made in the temple in the presence of representatives of all nations.
Purity
I love little prods like this one - well done Dodo for asking a good question!Dodo_David said:
Can you see how Isa 55 answers your concern?
If you know your Scripture then you will know why I quoted Isa 55 in relation to natural Israel's place in Gods plan.
Look forward to hearing you speak to the chapter :)
I sure don't see you making a case for yourself, that's part of the point of this thread for those that believe as you do, to provide some evidence that directly supports your understanding of Romans 11:25. The evidence in the NT alone for my understanding far out weighs yours, and it all speaks directly to the subject.Purity said:
You have one missinterpreted verse in the NT that's it, Romans 11:25, that's a pretty small string to hang all your biblical truths on don't you think?
Romans 9:6-9
Gal 3:28
Romans 2:28-29
Matthew 3:9
So go into the word and bring some evidence, I don't believe you can from the NT and all you have left is your interpretation of prophesy from the old or Rev
Retrobyter
Active Member
I am not downplaying the place that Jewish believers in the Messiah have in the kingdom of God.
Jewish believers in the Messiah have a blessing that Gentile believers in the Messiah do not have.
As the Apostle Paul says in Romans 1:16, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."
Also, in Romans 2:9-10, Paul says, "There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."
In Romans 11:17-21, Paul say to the Gentiles,
Yes, it is advantageous for a person to be a Jewish believer in the Messiah, because such a person is a natural branch. Yet, the natural branches and the grafted branches (Gentile believers) are side by side.
Jewish believers in the Messiah have a blessing that Gentile believers in the Messiah do not have.
As the Apostle Paul says in Romans 1:16, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."
Also, in Romans 2:9-10, Paul says, "There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."
In Romans 11:17-21, Paul say to the Gentiles,
In Romans 11:17-21, Paul does not say that the Gentiles are grafted into the natural branches, who are the community of Israel. Instead, the Gentiles are grafted into the root, who is the Messiah.
Yes, it is advantageous for a person to be a Jewish believer in the Messiah, because such a person is a natural branch. Yet, the natural branches and the grafted branches (Gentile believers) are side by side.
That has never been my motivation .... so you are wrong about that.Dodo_David said:
I have no desire to puff up Israel ..... but clearly God is not finished with them yet.
5/6 of the bible is about Israel .... 1/5 is about the church which begins in Acts .... and then in the end Israel is back in focus.
There is a lot of un-fulfilled prophecy yet to happen to Israel ... we cannot ignore it
If only a handful of believing Jews will comprise Israel in the end why count them at all ?
If God forgives sins and cleanses Israel without Christ it sounds impossible to us
but he has forgiven and cleansed Israel many times in the past in the OT
What is to stop him from doing it again ?
I do not know the answers to all those questions .
But it is obvious God still has numerous plans for Israel and some of it is favorable
Whether we like it or not is beside the point
God made the sacrifice and he can apply it any way he sees fit.
He does not require our permission or approval.
Jew and Gentile and men and women and children are all equal in salvation under Christ
Some people mistaken that to mean the Church has replaced Israel
If anyone wants to eliminate Israel .... all you have to do is take some scissors and cut out 5/6 of your bible and throw those pages away.
No matter how many times it said or the verses that prove it some people still insist the southern kingdom, the Jews, stretching back to the Babylon captivity are not Israel, they are Judea.
The norther kingdom named Israel went into captivity before Judea, Jews from Judea and Israel are not interchangeable names but it's repeated so many times in churches that people actually believe it in-spite of the biblical evidence against it.
Show me where Israel's 10 tribes returned to Jerusalem to be reunited with Judea.
This gathering will be both Israel of the flesh decedents and Gentile believers, Romans 9:6 Gal 3:7 Matthew 3:9
Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
And guess what Judea and Benjamin don't have a free ticket to ride ether.
The norther kingdom named Israel went into captivity before Judea, Jews from Judea and Israel are not interchangeable names but it's repeated so many times in churches that people actually believe it in-spite of the biblical evidence against it.
Show me where Israel's 10 tribes returned to Jerusalem to be reunited with Judea.
He who scattered Israel will gather him,
and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.
Jeremiah 31:10
and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.
Jeremiah 31:10
Unless and until all Israel is restored to the Land, with Judah and Joseph joined as one, there is no Messianic fulfillment,
and there will be no realization of the Kingdom of God.
And guess who's going to do the restoring?
He who scattered Israel will gather him,
This gathering will be both Israel of the flesh decedents and Gentile believers, Romans 9:6 Gal 3:7 Matthew 3:9
Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
And guess what Judea and Benjamin don't have a free ticket to ride ether.
Does everyone here understand WHERE Paul gets his Olive Tree analogy from?
Jeremiah 11:9-17 KJV
9. And the Lord said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
10. They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.
11. Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
12. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.
13. For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal. [each one to his own master]
14. Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.
15. What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.
16. The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
17. For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.
The house of Israel and the house of Judah, although separate, are of the same Olive Tree which the Father himself, the Husbandman, has planted. Does everyone here agree then with the following statement?
"The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal."
Does everyone agree that when we see analogies made in the New Testament writings we should give precedent to any passages from the Old Testament which speak of the same things in the same terms? Is there anyone here that is willing to say that Paul does not reference Jeremiah 11 in Romans 11?
The same thing happens with the house of Israel and the house of Judah throughout Jeremiah, (as others have already stated).
In the famous Jeremiah 31 New Covenant passage the same thing occurs once again:
Jeremiah 31:26-34 KJV
26. Upon this I awaked, and beheld; my sleep was sweet unto me. [Re: Acts 2 dreams and visions]
27. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
One would therefore expect that if the house of Israel and the house of Judah were all combined into the nation of the Jews then this should be recognized in the New Covenant writings correct? Is it not fair to say that this should be the case? Especially in light of the fact that this is what some are teaching here? In other words where is the evidence if the author of Hebrews quotes the passage verbatim?
Hebrews 8:8-12 KJV
8. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
There are two ways to see the two houses becoming one; the man with the eyes and mind of the flesh will see the two houses as now a single nation of Jewish peoples of the flesh living in a single nation found on his Armageddon WWIII maps of the Middle East. The only other way is for the man with eyes and mind of Yeshua, (putting on the mind of Messiah) to walk around Zion through all twelve gates of the twelve tribes, take up his cross and follow Messiah, and become a Jew of the circumcision of the heart, taking up "the fear of the Jews" as the people of Persia did in the days of Mordecai and Esther, (which fear of the Jews is the healthy fear of the Most High our heavenly Father) and be crucified with Messiah outside the camp, outside the city. In so doing the same will have brought with him his eleven brethren and in such a manner all Israel shall be saved; each in his appointed times: "to the Jew first", (you becoming "IN MESSIAH") "and then to the Greek", (all the "members" of your own "household" being immersed into your doctrine). Then shall the man become "one new man" in Messiah; each in his or her own appointed times. However, these things will likely be rejected by most if not all. But remember that they are supernal and spiritual; and although it may take time for those who truly care about knowing the truth; these things cannot be understood or proven outside of the doctrines, parables, and teachings of Yeshua which expound Torah. Like the city of Adam or the city of Enoch; every man is a city with a sanctuary in his or her midst. How long shall it be till ye see and hear, O ye city dwellers? Until their cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, (for the man is the house) and the land be utterly desolate, (for the man is likewise the land) and the Most High has removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of their land. Yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, being burnt: as a terebinth, and as an oak, whose stock remaineth, when they are felled; so the holy seed is the stock thereof, O Israel! :)
Jeremiah 11:9-17 KJV
9. And the Lord said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
10. They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.
11. Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
12. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.
13. For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal. [each one to his own master]
14. Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.
15. What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.
16. The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
17. For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.
The house of Israel and the house of Judah, although separate, are of the same Olive Tree which the Father himself, the Husbandman, has planted. Does everyone here agree then with the following statement?
"The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal."
Does everyone agree that when we see analogies made in the New Testament writings we should give precedent to any passages from the Old Testament which speak of the same things in the same terms? Is there anyone here that is willing to say that Paul does not reference Jeremiah 11 in Romans 11?
The same thing happens with the house of Israel and the house of Judah throughout Jeremiah, (as others have already stated).
In the famous Jeremiah 31 New Covenant passage the same thing occurs once again:
Jeremiah 31:26-34 KJV
26. Upon this I awaked, and beheld; my sleep was sweet unto me. [Re: Acts 2 dreams and visions]
27. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
One would therefore expect that if the house of Israel and the house of Judah were all combined into the nation of the Jews then this should be recognized in the New Covenant writings correct? Is it not fair to say that this should be the case? Especially in light of the fact that this is what some are teaching here? In other words where is the evidence if the author of Hebrews quotes the passage verbatim?
Hebrews 8:8-12 KJV
8. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11. And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
There are two ways to see the two houses becoming one; the man with the eyes and mind of the flesh will see the two houses as now a single nation of Jewish peoples of the flesh living in a single nation found on his Armageddon WWIII maps of the Middle East. The only other way is for the man with eyes and mind of Yeshua, (putting on the mind of Messiah) to walk around Zion through all twelve gates of the twelve tribes, take up his cross and follow Messiah, and become a Jew of the circumcision of the heart, taking up "the fear of the Jews" as the people of Persia did in the days of Mordecai and Esther, (which fear of the Jews is the healthy fear of the Most High our heavenly Father) and be crucified with Messiah outside the camp, outside the city. In so doing the same will have brought with him his eleven brethren and in such a manner all Israel shall be saved; each in his appointed times: "to the Jew first", (you becoming "IN MESSIAH") "and then to the Greek", (all the "members" of your own "household" being immersed into your doctrine). Then shall the man become "one new man" in Messiah; each in his or her own appointed times. However, these things will likely be rejected by most if not all. But remember that they are supernal and spiritual; and although it may take time for those who truly care about knowing the truth; these things cannot be understood or proven outside of the doctrines, parables, and teachings of Yeshua which expound Torah. Like the city of Adam or the city of Enoch; every man is a city with a sanctuary in his or her midst. How long shall it be till ye see and hear, O ye city dwellers? Until their cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, (for the man is the house) and the land be utterly desolate, (for the man is likewise the land) and the Most High has removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of their land. Yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, being burnt: as a terebinth, and as an oak, whose stock remaineth, when they are felled; so the holy seed is the stock thereof, O Israel! :)
If you pay close attention to what I'm saying, I'm actually teaching that very idea you're asking me about.dragonfly said:
Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Apostle Paul is speaking mainly to the Roman Gentile believers here. He's getting ready to quote from the OT Book of Hosea ("Osee" is Greek for Hosea)...
25 As He saith also in Osee, "I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
(KJV)
If you study the Book of Hosea in honesty, while... understanding there that God had already separated Israel into two separate kingdoms, one kingdom as Israel in the north and the other as Judah in the south, then you will discover God sent His prophet Hosea to speak to the northern kingdom of Israel (ten tribes under one of Ephraim as head).
That's who the Book of Hosea is addressed to, to the northern kingdom of Israel, also called "house of Israel" in Hosea, as they made up only the ten northern tribes of Israel.
Yet here in Romans 9:25-26 Apostle Paul is quoting from that Book of Hosea to... Roman Gentile believers on Christ Jesus.
Didn't Apostle Paul know who God sent His prophet Hosea to, back in that OT time of rebellion by the ten tribes? I assure you, Paul knew very well the Book of Hosea was originally addressed only to the ten tribed "house of Israel".
God told Hosea to take a harlot wife. And when Hosea's wife bare the first child, God told Hosea what to name him. The first child was named Jezreel (Yizre el = God sows, or God will sow). The name Jezreel God used there is against... the house of Israel because of Jehu (king of the house of Israel) being overzealous in killing others beyond God's command to destroy Ahab's family (2 Kings 9 & 10). Per Hosea 1:4 God uses that name in association with king Jehu as a symbol for what He would soon do upon the ten tribed house of Israel, saying in a little while He would cause the kingdom of the house of Israel to cease from existence.
Then Hosea's wife conceived again and bare a daughter. God told Hosea to call her name Loruhamah (means 'no mercy', or 'not pitied'). In the Hosea 1:6 verse God said He would no more have mercy upon the house of Israel, but would utterly take them away. God did that, He brought the kings of Assyria upon the northern kingdom of the house of Israel (ten tribes), and removed them all out of the holy lands captive to Assyria and land of the Medes. Hosea was sent to warn them that God was getting ready to do this to them.
In Hosea 1:7, God said He would... have mercy upon the house of Judah and would save them, their being put for the three tribes of the southern kingdom at Judea/Jerusalem at that time. When God later removed Israel (northern kingdom), He left the "house of Judah" (southern kingdom) remaining in the south of the holy lands.
Then Hosea's wife bare again, a son, and this time God said to call him Loammi, which means 'not My people'. He then said to the ten tribed kingdom that they were NOT... His people, and that He would no longer be their God (Hosea 1:9).
Then God said this...
Hosea 1:10-11
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not my people", there it shall be said unto them, "Ye are the sons of the living God."
Firstly, that "children of Israel" has a dual meaning. It is primarily about the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) which God was addressing in Hosea. But it would come to include others besides.
That part in red bold underlined is what Apostle Paul quoted to the Gentile Romans in Romans 9:25-26. Yet God originally said this through Hosea only to the ten tribed house of Israel in Hosea 1. That Hosea 1:10 verse was to be a far future prophecy from Hosea's days.
The idea is that even though God got fed up with the rebellion of the ten tribes in Hosea's day, and that He declared to them that He would have no mercy (Loruhamah) upon them, and that they were no longer His people (Loammi), yet the time would come that where God said that to them, that He would say to them they are the "sons of the living God". In other words, they would obtain His mercy. And they would become as many as the sands of the sea that cannot be numbered for so many.
That Hosea 1:10 verse began to be fulfilled after God had removed the ten tribes out of the land, scattering them among the Gentiles. And there, among the Gentiles, they would obtain mercy, and become "the sons of the living God". Who would be detrimental in causing that? Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles whom He sent.
Thus in Romans 9, Paul was not only quoting the Hosea prophecy to believing Gentiles, but ALSO to ten lost tribe Israelites scattered among them, with their having believed The Gospel of Jesus Christ also, while being scattered among the Gentiles. Since these ten tribes became LOST to the world, and to themselves as Israelites of the northern kingdom of Israel, they became AS... Gentiles, living among... the Gentiles. Even the majority of Judah (Jews) think they are actually Gentiles. Here in Hosea 1 God makes the distinction between the house of Israel He gave up (temporarily until Christ came), apart... from Judah (house of Judah or Jews). God promised He would save Judah here in Hosea's days, and He did. (The house of Judah at Judea would around 120 years later rebel also like Israel did, and then be taken captive to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar, with a small remnant returning to Jerusalem after 70 years).
Then in final, at Christ's second coming, the following prophecy is to take place...
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
(KJV)
Remember that name Jezreel back in the Hosea 1:4 verse associated with the evils which Jehu king of the house of Israel did? Is that how God uses that name Jezreel here at this point? No. And what is the meaning of that name Jezreel again? It means 'God sows', or 'God will sow'. So what... did God sow per all this?
God scattered the majority of Israel (ten tribes), symbolically divorced them spiritually per Jer.3 and this Hosea 1 chapter, and then He SOWED... them among the Gentiles in prep for their receiving The Gospel of Jesus Christ while AMONG... the Gentiles. And in final, the ten tribes would be joined back... with the house of Judah, appointing themselves "one head" (our Lord Jesus Christ), and GREAT... would be that day of Jezreel (God's sowing).
Thus I give you, Christ's Church made up of not one, not two, but THREE separate historical groups:
"house of Israel" = ten tribed majority of Israelites that believe on Jesus Christ
"house of Judah" = believing Jews on Jesus Christ
Gentiles = believing Gentiles out of all nations that believe on Jesus Christ.
Veteran you pretty much nailed everything until you got to the point I have quoted and put in bold red italics:
Joel 3:12-17 KJV
12. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17. So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
"To each in his or her own appointed times and none shall be alone in his appointed times: Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou whole Pelesheth of the flesh art dissolved; for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it!"
And what Yeshua says to the talmidim, in Mark 13, he says to all ~ WATCH! :)
It is too exactly how "Yizr`e'l" is employed in Hosea 1:11. In fact it is the very same which is a play on Yisrael from the verse five statement: "I will break the bow of Israel, in the valley of Jezreel" ("Yisra'el b`emeq Yizr`e'l"). You have basically proven the point being made against your own understanding. By the way in which Paul quotes and uses Hosea it is clear that he speaks of the congregations to which he writes in all his epistles. The Gentiles therefore do not get to remain "Gentiles", Heathen, Canaanites, Amorites, or Girgashites, or any other "ites" with their doctrines of the heathen; but rather must be graffed into the all Israel and Olive Tree of God. Therefore "the seed of beast", (Jeremiah 31:27 quoted above as an integral portion of the New Covenant) which has been sown into both the house of Israel and the house of Judah must be eliminated, (because God has concluded all under the sin of unbelief so that he might have mercy upon all, Romans 11:32, Galatians 3:22). The only way that "the seed of beast" may properly be eliminated is according to the Scripture and in Messiah through his doctrines, (see also Hosea 13:7-11 and compare with Daniel 7:1-7 and Revelation 13:1-2). The time when this is to come is the day that no man knows; it is the great day of the valley of decision, in the valley of Jehoshaphat, and the like analogy of the valley of Jezreel, and if you do overcome in your time of trial then you too shall "come up out of your land" (therefore heed the commandment to rehearse that Great Day by afflicting your own soul because there shall be none like it before or after). Those who are indeed graffed into the Olive Tree have already made themselves One Head: the Head of the Body, Yeshua Moshiya`-Messias.veteran said:
Joel 3:12-17 KJV
12. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17. So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
"To each in his or her own appointed times and none shall be alone in his appointed times: Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou whole Pelesheth of the flesh art dissolved; for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it!"
And what Yeshua says to the talmidim, in Mark 13, he says to all ~ WATCH! :)
What are you going on about now?daq said:
The Jezreel (God will sow) in the first part of Hosea 1 is in association with king Jehu of the house of Israel...
II Ki 9:17
17 And there stood a watchman on the tower in Jezreel, and he spied the company of Jehu as he came, and said, I see a company. And Joram said, Take an horseman, and send to meet them, and let him say, Is it peace?
(KJV)
But in the last Hosea 1 verse, it is in association with Christ's Salvation to His Church on the day of His return, not using the word Israel (Yisra' el' which means 'God prevails'), but in connection with the meaning of Jezreel (Yizre' el' which means 'God will sow').
These two verses are linked together with the time when God scattered the northern kingdom of the house of Israel back in history...
Hosea 1:4-5
4 And the LORD said unto him, "Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
(KJV)
At what day? At the day God did that back in history when He brought the kings of Assyria upon those lands, and they took the ten tribes captive out of the land. That was when God broke the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel, fulfilling His declaration of Hosea 1:4 about that northern kingdom of Israel ceasing back in history. NONE of that is in association with the final Hosea 1:11 "... for great shall be the day of Jezreel". The Hosea 1:11 verse is for the VERY END OF THIS WORLD WHEN JESUS RETURNS.
All you're doing is 'mouthing', because you obviously must have a problem what Apostle Paul and myself have said with Hosea 1:10-11 being about Christ's Salvation to His Church made up of believing ten tribe Israelites, beileving Jews, and believing Gentiles.
Pulling out a verse here and there like some random robot is all you're good for.daq said:
You ought finish what God Himself said...
Hosea 13:9-14
9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
10 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?
11 I gave thee a king in Mine anger, and took him away in My wrath.
12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid.
13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children.
14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from Mine eyes.
(KJV)
Why have you come here to deny Christ Jesus, you white-washed wall???
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