The Rapture Is in Olivet Discourse

[Christ4Me]

The parable is a parable. All parables are metaphors that teach a spiritual truth. The stories of the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah were real events. They both occurred on Earth and no one was "raptured" to escape them.

But they did escape the global flood by entering the ark, ad they did escape the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah by leaving those cities.

Disagree all you want, but Jesus identified the parable as being like the kingdom of heaven, not the marriage Supper of the Lamb. That's an addition to the word of God to create a fiction.

Not when aligning similar messages like Luke 14:15-24 & Matthew 25:1-13

This sounds reasonable but the parable is about entering the kingdom of heaven, not about the marriage Supper of the Lamb. Jesus spoke this parable to those outside the faith as with all His parables.

No. The kingdom of heaven was likened unto those ten virgins where five were foolish & fiver were wise. Those ten virgins were the kingdom of heaven. Therefore it was about attending the Wedding reception for why the Bridegroom is warning believers to be ready or else.

This whole argument is based upon the notion that Christ divides the church into 2 sets of saints, the super duper really faithful ones, and the unfaithful ones left behind to minister to a dying world, a complete and biblically unsupportable fantasy.

Yet you had stated earlier that it sounds reasonable, but after I have corrected you regarding that parable of the ten virgins, what do you say now because those ten virgins are the kingdom of Heaven; it is just that five were too late for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb?

So why are there vessels unto dishonor in His House that are vessels of wood & earth as opposing to the vessels of honor, vessels of gold & silver of those whom departs from iniquity?

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

When the Apostle says that the dead in Christ will rise first and that those who are alive will be changed in an instant to meet them in the air, that's because there is one body of Christ, not 5 or 10. The idea of separate tribulation saints is pure fiction to justify the cowardice of fearful men who have no place in the city of God.

That is to be aligned with other truths in scripture since the Apostle was referring to those abiding in Him as His disciples.

Did not the apostle commanded the church to excommunicate the unrepentant brother in 1 Corinthians 5:1-13? You really think all believers will be ready to meet the Bridegroom? Even Paul knew if he was not abiding in Him, he could become a castaway and not just lose the reward of crowns.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.​

 

[Christ4Me]

I own a hard copy of Strong's Concordance and I haven't found an online version that gives the same definitions.

I've known for over 20 years that the correct translation is "where the body is, there the Vultures are gathered".​

I do not see you sharing any thing from your hard copy of Strong's concordance.​

The kingdom of God on Earth is the body of Christ, a fellowship of believers meant to support each other and rejoice in His grace. You don't have to be removed from the Earth to do that. You just have to join a congregation of Spirit filled believers and worship God with them. The real experience is rapturous, the fake is tedious.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
​

You're missing the obvious. Jesus was addressing Jews, not Christians, in all of His teachings, and His warnings were nearly all about hypocrisy and self deception. His opposition was not from the mob that followed Him, but from the religious leaders who taught one thing and did another.

You should consider Peter's question then in Luke 12:40-49. I'd say it is directed to all believers in Jesus Christ.​

All the New Testament books were written to the church specifically except the book of Hebrews (which was written to Hebrew believers as opposed to gentiles), and the gospels.

Context is everything in the sound exegesis of scripture and in the book of the Revelation, Jesus specifically addresses the church, not unbelieving Jews or gentiles.
There is no point in warning the church to be ready for His return when the premise of our communion ordinance is to remember His sacrifice for us until He returns. Do you see how much you've missed just by believing one cultic doctrine?​

I actually see Paul's letter to the Hebrews as rebuking the Mass, the Eucharist, and the sacraments at "holy" communion in Hebrews 10:1-31

But as it is, there is only one gospel and one body of Christ, Jews & Gentiles, for why all warnings & judgments applies to all believers in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Proof? The running of that race to the Jews ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ) is the same as running that race to the Gentiles 1 Corinthians 9:24-27.

I'm sorry, but I can't decipher this grammatical mine field. That's the spirit of error in conflict with the Holy Spirit and this seems to happen every time a believer in Christ tries to use scripture to justify error.
Keep studying brother and :
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths." Proverbs 3:5-6

Okay. Let me explain further.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

That above was after 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 for why the ESV has it WRONG.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. KJV

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple. ESV

Were you under the impression of a believer destroying a temple in the ESV?

If so, that doesn't track when the beginning of verse 16 in both KJV & ESV designated that we are God's temple. What would be the point of us destroying ourselves ( suicide ? ) and God does it again in the ESV? Even the end of verse 17 both KJV & ESV confirms that our physical bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit for why God destroying it with physical death is the result of what happens in that day when He judges every believer for what he has built on that foundation, but the spirit is saved in verse 15.

Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man:...

Now do you see why God is judging His House first when the Bridegroom comes at the rapture event?

Because when He comes as the King of kings at the end of the great tribulation, He is doing it to judge the world in establishing His kingdom of heaven on earth for His 1000 year reign when New Jerusalem will come down with her inhabitants, the pre raptured great tribulation saints.


​

 

[michaelvpardo]

Why bother?
You'll never grow past your error.
Obsession with a fantasy is called psychosis. I'm a prophet, not a psychiatrist.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Olivet discourse is Matthew 24:1-25:46. So let us apply your belief that believers are suppose to go through the great tribulation until Christ comes at the very end of the great tribulation when He defends Jerusalem when the world's armies will be marching against it.

Now imagine how bad that will be for believers at the end of the great tribulation when supposedly the beast has been waging war on the saints.

The Beast tradition began during the Roman Empire, and has continued all through European history. It has been bad in all ages at times, and yes, the Church got through it.

The book of Revelation is about the Antichrist, but there is a reason God gave it to the Early Church. That's where the Beast system began, and they went through the same stuff the Church in the endtimes will have to go through with the Antichrist. It's a call to faithfulness to Christ, and to endure in a time of testing.

How can a believer not watch? Why would Jesus even bother to warn believers to be ready or else then? Jesus describes a world that the saints will be living in as not like the end of the great tribulation.

Jesus' exhortation to "watch" had to do with eliciting our alertness as to things that would distract of deceive us. It was also a warning for the early Jewish Church to be prepared for judgment coming against their nation, Israel. That punishment was for ungodly Jews, and not for them. So they had to watch out for the approach of a Roman army, so that they could escape in time.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Harpazo is misused IMHO. I don’t deny the word as it does appear. But some today take a definition of “caught up”, as if brought upwards and apply it to “meet Christ in the air” and say this is what happens.

But harpazo is actually the snatching by force something of great value before it’s destroyed. As true believers are said to be his treasure and worth more then gold/pearls, this treasure is seized to remove it from destruction. That doesn’t mean we fly or go up (caught up). Simply we are under no condemnation those that belong to Christ. Also, today Pre-Tribbers put so much emphasis in a rapture when the Bible and all early church fathers spoke mostly on the resurrection of the dead. Why are we fixated on our change coming while we live? Is it so we can live “in the world?” Even Paul said that he and his friends would rest when Christ comes in flaming fire on the wicked. He expected his rest at the resurrection of the dead, not a change while living. There was no immanence.

The object is all God’s true people, whether dead or alive at his coming, will be with him.

There is zero scripture to support we go off world or we enter heaven (God’s throne). We are promised paradise which is described as a park or garden, well watered etc. Heaven is never described that way. Two completely different koine Greek words.

 

[Christ4Me]

Why bother?
You'll never grow past your error.
Obsession with a fantasy is called psychosis. I'm a prophet, not a psychiatrist.

Keep in mind as I do for myself that we prophesy in par and know in part.

Believers speak against the pre great trib rapture because they think we are not in the tribulation yet but Jesus & the apostle John said we are in the tribulation of the latter days for why it is not the great tribulation.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

So as there is a misconception there, so is the application of the "last day" references when Paul said there is an order for how men shall be resurrected, thus the bigger picture is the three harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven ( Matthew 13:33 ) before Christ gives the kingdom back to the Father; there is Christ the firstfruits ( plural so not meaning Christ only ) and they that be Christ at His coming as the King of kings. Then the end when those remaining loyal to Christ after Satan has been released from the pit a thousand years to stage one last rebellion. ( Hard to believe that he would be successful in tempting some to join him ) but those remaining loyal to Christ is the last harvest, before the Great white Throne Judgment for when after that when death is in the lake of fire, He gives the completed kingdom of Heaven back to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Thanks to Jesus, I can align your scripture references and rightly divide the word of truth with the other truths in scripture for why the rapture is when God will judge His House first as the Bridegroom for why He is warning believers to be ready or else be cast into the great tribulation, but you can only repeat those verses and not align them with the truths in other scripture to get the bigger picture at all and so it is hid from you.

If you trust Jesus Christ as your Good Shepherd & friend in helping you to follow him, then I suggest you pray ad trust Him to show you the truth in His words, because it is on your side of the issues for why you are not aligning everything in scripture to be true.

You may be in the right, but you are not relying on Jesus to reprove anyone by the other scriptures in rightly dividing the word of truth to prove the one you are applying is right.

Just dismissing it or ignoring those other scripture would not cut it with you when you correct others by scripture and so you should not do it either in regards to this. I am telling you that you are missing the truth in His words and you need His help to either address it or see it to grow in the knowledge of Him.

 

[Christ4Me]

The Beast tradition began during the Roman Empire, and has continued all through European history. It has been bad in all ages at times, and yes, the Church got through it.

The book of Revelation is about the Antichrist, but there is a reason God gave it to the Early Church. That's where the Beast system began, and they went through the same stuff the Church in the endtimes will have to go through with the Antichrist. It's a call to faithfulness to Christ, and to endure in a time of testing.

Jesus' exhortation to "watch" had to do with eliciting our alertness as to things that would distract of deceive us. It was also a warning for the early Jewish Church to be prepared for judgment coming against their nation, Israel. That punishment was for ungodly Jews, and not for them. So they had to watch out for the approach of a Roman army, so that they could escape in time.

May the Lord remind you why the church is to excommunicate and what for, because He will be doing the same thing as the Bridegroom for the marriage Supper in Heaven for why He is judging His House first, and excommunicating those disqualified or reprobates for being workers of iniquity.

Here is the why for why God will do this at the rapture.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

This is the what for, as we can see how the beast will be waging war on the saints to kill them with the sword and death to fulfill His purpose & will.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Believers speak against the pre great trib rapture because they think we are not in the tribulation yet but Jesus & the apostle John said we are in the tribulation of the latter days for why it is not the great tribulation.

No, believers speak against the pre trib rapture because it isn't explicitly taught in scripture and we've been specifically instructed to not go beyond what is written in God's word, to not add to it, or take from it. Since the book of the Revelation contradicts this false doctrine, you remain under a curse while teaching it.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5

18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

 

[Christ4Me]

No, believers speak against the pre trib rapture because it isn't explicitly taught in scripture and we've been specifically instructed to not go beyond what is written in God's word, to not add to it, or take from it. Since the book of the Revelation contradicts this false doctrine, you remain under a curse while teaching it.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5

18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

Yet Jesus is warning the churches in Revelation to be ready or else; as one consequence for that church at Thyatira is to be cast into the bed of the great tribulation for not repenting of her fornication per Revelation 2:18-25

I dare say you are missing the forest for all the tree, brother, for why Jesus is warning saved believers & churches to be ready or else.

 

[Enoch111]

Harpazo is misused IMHO. I don’t deny the word as it does appear. But some today take a definition of “caught up”, as if brought upwards and apply it to “meet Christ in the air” and say this is what happens.

But that is EXACTLY what the text says! So now you are making up your own definition and interpretation, because you call yourself "No Pre-TB".

What is really strange and disturbing is that although Christians should be delighted at the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, many attack that teaching and hate the thought of Christ coming supernaturally to catch up all His saints miraculously, at the same time as the Resurrection of those who are now in Heaven. It is evident that Satan hates this doctrine and causes many to hate it too.

 

[Christ4Me]

But that is EXACTLY what the text says! So now you are making up your own definition and interpretation, because you call yourself "No Pre-TB".

What is really strange and disturbing is that although Christians should be delighted at the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, many attack that teaching and hate the thought of Christ coming supernaturally to catch up all His saints miraculously, at the same time as the Resurrection of those who are now in Heaven. It is evident that Satan hates this doctrine and causes many to hate it too.

What is alarming is how many believe all saved believers will be raptured, and yet failing to understand why Jesus was warning believers to be ready or else. Some will be found in iniquity of supernatural apostasy and know it not per Matthew 7:21-23 Some will be in dead religious works that deny Him and know it not; Titus 1:16 Some will be sowing to the flesh & reaping corruption, thinking they will repent tomorrow and just be too late. Some will love this life so much that they will not want to leave it for how that can be a snare to believers per Luke 14:15-24 & Luke 21:33-36

So we are not only called to discern & depart from iniquity with His help, we need His help to be willing to go and not be snared by the cares of this life like... "No, Lord!" Not Now! The Wheel of Fortune is on!!" <--- an extreme example of Christian horror.

 

[Enoch111]

What is alarming is how many believe all saved believers will be raptured, and yet failing to understand why Jesus was warning believers to be ready or else.

Believers are to always be ready since the Rapture is imminent. And all saved believers who are alive at that time will be raptured. The issue is the total rejection of the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture.

 

[No Pre-TB]

But that is EXACTLY what the text says! So now you are making up your own definition and interpretation, because you call yourself "No Pre-TB".

What is really strange and disturbing is that although Christians should be delighted at the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, many attack that teaching and hate the thought of Christ coming supernaturally to catch up all His saints miraculously, at the same time as the Resurrection of those who are now in Heaven. It is evident that Satan hates this doctrine and causes many to hate it too.

The text in question says we who are alive at his coming, will be saved. I don’t disagree with that.

In regards to my name, your judgmental attitude assumes that because I don’t believe Pre-TB to be scriptural I’m somehow making up my own interpretation? Opinions are fine. But I am to be judged by God, not you. I’d tread carefully. Not because I’d lose myself to anger or attack you on the forum, but because that attitude is devoid of love and not in Christ likeness.

I don’t hate the idea of Christ coming for his saints. But Pre-TB isn’t a doctrine my friend. It is a form of eschatology that has nothing to do with doctrines such as the trinity, Christ as God, salvation by grace through faith etc

Lastly, we are never told we’d go to heaven. We are promised paradise. Two very different things.

If you care to talk about Pre-TB though, I’ll happily engage you. We can discuss any part of it and why, scripturally, it has flaws. This isn’t an attack on your belief or others. I’m not against anyone here. A believer against the brothern sins against his own and is divisive. But we should talk rationally about these things civilly.

 

[Christ4Me]

Believers are to always be ready since the Rapture is imminent. And all saved believers who are alive at that time will be raptured.

By His grace & by His help, only those found abiding in Him and His words & are willing to leave their lives behind will be raptured.

The issue is the total rejection of the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture.

If the believer is abiding in Him & His words & is willing to go with His help, they will be raptured whether they believe in the rapture or not.

Jesus warned that there will be believers desiring to enter in hence knowing about the rapture, but are unable to because they were still in iniquity when He comes. Any iniquity on that foundation that denies Him & defiles the temple of God, He will deny them and burn off of that foundation all that offends so that when they die in the great tribulation, their spirits will be with the Lord to await their resurrection after the great tribulation.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Jesus will finish His work in those wayward saints & former believers left behind for why they shall be called vessels unto dishonor in His House to testify to the power of God in salvation for all those who come to & believe in Him, even in His name..

 

[Enoch111]

But Pre-TB isn’t a doctrine my friend.

This clearly shows that you do not understand what the Resurrection/Rapture is all about. It is a part of the doctrine of salvation, which includes the perfection and glorification of the saints: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29,30)

And that is exactly what happens at the Resurrection/Rapture, which -- by definition -- must take place before the Tribulation period.

 

[Christ4Me]

This clearly shows that you do not understand what the Resurrection/Rapture is all about. It is a part of the doctrine of salvation, which includes the perfection and glorification of the saints: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29,30)

And that is exactly what happens at the Resurrection/Rapture, which -- by definition -- must take place before the Tribulation period.

Why did Jesus say His disciples and believers are in the tribulation now?

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Why did the apostle John confirm the days he and we are living in as the tribulation now?

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There is tribulation for the days we are living in and then there is great tribulation that believers not aiding in Him will be left behind in.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

You really think all saved believers will be found abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes?

This is why Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else He will excommunicate them as disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Then you have the devil waging war on the saints to kill them with death by the sword & hunger because they cannot buy or sell unless they have the mark of the beast, thus the flip side of the coin for why God will excommunicate them

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The only reasons believers hold to your position is because they do not believe those saints professing Him that get left behind are saved when He denies ever knowing them, and like Peter, who denied the Lord 3 times, BUT with saved believers that err & have their faith overthrown for why they would deny Him, it is part of that faithful saying in 2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself," means even though denied entrance to the Marriage Supper, He still abides in those left behind and therefore are still saved. This is where the vessels unto "dishonor" comes from that are in His House still as vessels of wood & earth. 2 Timothy 2:20-21 It is by departing from iniquity is how a believer is received as that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in heaven for being ready.

That is why Jesus is warning the saved believers to be ready or else be excommunicated from the Marriage Supper when the Bridegroom comes.

 

[Enoch111]

Why did Jesus say His disciples and believers are in the tribulation now?

Jesus said no such thing. What He said is that all Christians will go through trials, testings, tribulations, and troubles. And Paul concurred. That is certainly not equivalent to "the Tribulation" which is a period of divine judgments and wrath. "The Tribulation" is a very specific period of time such as has never been nor will ever be.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

This passage needs to be connected to Revelation 11-13, which also mentions Michael the archangel.

 

[Christ4Me]

Jesus said no such thing. What He said is that all Christians will go through trials, testings, tribulations, and troubles. And Paul concurred. That is certainly not equivalent to "the Tribulation" which is a period of divine judgments and wrath. "The Tribulation" is a very specific period of time such as has never been nor will ever be.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

This passage needs to be connected to Revelation 11-13, which also mentions Michael the archangel.

I believe that after the rapture, is the great tribulation, but before the rapture is the tribulation we are all living in these latter days where false prophets and apostasy are causing many believers to go astray for why many are not ready and why God is judging His House first then due to the falling away from the faith. I believe this is why the dispensation of the gospel will go back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses after the rapture.

 

[Timtofly]

Couldn't agree more.

Although I will add one more camp; albeit I truly believe it is in the stark minority.

That is the camp of those who are truly naive. Those who have been fooled by church pastors and/or those who have been specifically taught False Doctrine with the intent of them going out and spreading it.

Like I said, though, I truly believe those are the minority in these long, ongoing, debates.

"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or he will cease being honest."
-Anonymous

The majority of those who fight tooth and nail in Christian Forums FOR False Doctrine know full well they are lying and will return repeatedly to points that have already been very skillfully and articulately vanquished, by multiple people, over and over. They will also accuse you of doing exactly the nonsense they are doing; that's witchcraft 101.

They're all liars and hypocrites; just like their father.

The 4th group of truly deceived. Those who think they know the truth, but do not. Both sides are going to be convinced the other side is the one deceived, so those deceived will not even know it.

 

[GEN2REV]

The 4th group of truly deceived. Those who think they know the truth, but do not.

That's actually the group I was referring to as naive. Just used different wording.

Both sides are going to be convinced the other side is the one deceived, so those deceived will not even know it.

That's fair, BUT those who are correct are those who can prove it with coherent, sound scripture.

Those who are mistaken, or are intentionally misleading, will not be able to do so and will continue to return to points that have already been proven wrong with scripture; and they will continue to make statements and claims, in their own words - or quoting extra-biblical sources as an authority to the Bible, that they cannot confirm with any scripture.

There is always an identifiable difference between those who are not in alignment with scripture and those who are.

As a matter of fact, that's one of the biggest reasons God wrote the Bible. One is either in agreement with its precepts or they are not.