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The Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by shutin45, Feb 24, 2009.

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  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    shutinlet me ask you a question does the Bible speak of three coming of Christ ??
     
  2. shutin45

    shutin45 New Member

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    Great!Then we are pretty much in agreement.Note that I also said rapio was not in the Bible.AND.....I AM "getting it". Didn't my REPEATED comments that I was ONLY talking about the Rapture get that across?Quote:"I'm ONLY talking about the rapture in the following: Christians at SOME point in time will be taken up, gathered together. Commonly referred to as the Rapture. Again, pre-post trib NOT being addressed here."Thanks Jordan for that other greek word that might be more applicable - harpazo. Really, I didn't say rapio was in the Bible.My last few posts have been only due to specific words saying the rapture wasn't Biblical. If it had been made clearer that we were talking timing still - pre/post trib, I wouldn't have written all that anyway [​IMG] . Also - I'm saying this in the spirit of love - in order to help, if when someone writes and specifically addresses each point/concern in someones post, the response did so to it would help communications. Sometimes it seems posts are rapidly scanned due to preconceived notions and possible judgements (or other reasons) which limits information exchange and leads to confusing or non-pertinent replies. That just slows getting to the Truth [​IMG] !!And this may please most of y'all, logged on to say it last night, but words chosen others sidetracked me..............I have concluded that since we will not be called away whatever, til after the son of perdition is revealed, as written in II Thessalonians, then we cannot be raptured pre-trib. [sup]II Thessalonians 2:3[/sup]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [sup]4[/sup]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. So, no question, that's the anti-Christ, and that day shall not come until he's revealed, which is 3.5 years into the Tribulation Period so.......Yeah, yeah, y'all told me so, BUT the words chosen, not answering specific questions, and incorrect Verse references in replies put up barriers to or slowed exchanges.Sorry Setfree. I'll not judge or alienate a Brother or Sister for believing differently though. I'm still there for ya - all of ya for that matter.Because there is a chance that Matthew 24:40 and 41 are bad being taken, which I'll elaborate from using a post I found online:Quote words of man, but I think you'll overlook this one Christina [​IMG]
    • "Matthew 13:24-30, "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
    Jesus then explains this...
    • Matthew 13:36-39, "Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."
    Have you ever seen a actual TARE? It's not just any weed. This is what I used to think for years. A tare looks just like wheat! In fact it looks exactly like wheat. Until harvest that is. The wheat is plump and filled with its fruit, but the tares are scrawny and thin. In fact, inside the tares is a small back seed that if eaten causes sleepiness no less! This parable fits perfectly with todays world. SO MANY people claim Christ as Lord. Literally billions of people on this planet "look" like Christians. Soon however, the harvest will be ready and those of us called to tarry through the time of Jacob's trouble will experience first hand how scrawny and thin those "Christians" really are. They will be the ones that join with Rome to have us jailed, persecuted and even killed. There is one verse in the Word of god that directly addresses the so called "Secret Rapture" in such a way that it appears to say the Lord knew this lie would be embraced in these last days."Therefore the main and very clear reference I'm left with is the one from II Thessalonians. We'll be here to see the anti-Christ. Therefore, a post-trib rapture. I wasn't easily moved to this either.I was SOOO torn because I don't care about myself going through that. Let them behead me because I won't worship the anti-Christ. Let me starve because I'll not take the mark of the beast. I'll not be misled or moved by the evil one calling down fire in imitation of what God did for Elijah(?) when he confronted the "prophets" of baal..........BUT........My beloved Wife and our Babies!!! My Siblings and Parents!!! Beloved In-Laws!!! Friends!!!OH the heaviness of my heart..................Pray for me Y'all.Jim
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Exactly the problem is that when people say Rapture they are talking Pre-trib Post mid is almost never talked about So when we hear Rapture 99% of the time it is Pre -trib they are talking about ... And Rapture doctrine is about being flown away some where else ... To avoid the tribulation this is what is never taught we all experience the tribulation but have no fear God says he will protect his own just as he did at Passover in Egypt when the angel of death appears read my Tribulation truth the tribulation isnt about killing any one ... No one is flying anywhere we are chaged into spirit bodies to rise to meet Christ at his coming but he is coming here to reign and rule on earth this is not what a Rapture... doctrine teaches thats why we say it isnt in the Bible Meeting Christ as comes here is not the same as being flown away to some mystical place that no one can seem to name
     
  4. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    If we are all raptured, changed at the end of the tribulation and all the follower of satan are destroyed..satan in bound for a 1000 years....... Who are we going to reign over with Christ?
     
  5. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 25 2009, 03:02 PM)
    If we are all raptured, changed at the end of the tribulation and all the follower of satan are destroyed..satan in bound for a 1000 years....... Who are we going to reign over with Christ?
    The problem with your thinking... God is not going to kill anybody's soul until the Millennium Reign is over. He is going to kill those souls at the Great White Throne Judgment... AKA Judgment Day... We are going to be forced back into our spiritual body, which is our original body. God does not need human bodies at His Millennium Reign.
     
  6. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 25 2009, 03:07 PM)
    The problem with your thinking... God is not going to kill anybody's soul until the Millennium Reign is over. He is going to kill those souls at the Great White Throne Judgment... AKA Judgment Day... We are going to be forced back into our spiritual body, which is our original body. God does not need human bodies at His Millennium Reign.
    Jordan, you might be "forced" into your spiritual body but I am looking forward to leaving this corruptible flesh body and putting on my spiritual body again. Take your Strong's and follow the word "harpazō" back to the root word "nâsâh."QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 25 2009, 03:02 PM)
    If we are all raptured, changed at the end of the tribulation and all the follower of satan are destroyed..satan in bound for a 1000 years....... Who are we going to reign over with Christ?
    setfree, I am working on a Scripture study that will answer this question for you. It will be posted in a different topic in the Deeper Bible study area. I might not get it finished and posted until after a meeting I need to leave for shortly. Hang tight!
     
  7. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 25 2009, 03:07 PM)
    The problem with your thinking... God is not going to kill anybody's soul until the Millennium Reign is over. He is going to kill those souls at the Great White Throne Judgment... AKA Judgment Day... We are going to be forced back into our spiritual body, which is our original body. God does not need human bodies at His Millennium Reign.
    See you can not answer a question without a put down....So what happens with satan and his followers at the end of the tribulation...before the millennium? We are going to be forced back into our spiritual bodies?????????????and our spiritual bodies are our original bodies?????How will they have infants during the millennium in spiritual bodies? How will they die at 100 years old if they do not have mortal bodies? I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more. Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed [or, "the sinner who reaches a hundred will be considered accursed," according to the NIV footnote, and according to other translations]. They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the works of their hands. They will not toil in vain or bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by the LORD, they and their descendants with them. Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD." (Isaiah 65:19-25) Again, if we are all raptured/changed at the second coming/the end of tribulation, Satan is bound for 1000 years, and his followers are destroyed...who will we reign over with Christ? To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations -- 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery' -- just as I have received authority from my Father." (Revelation 2:26-27) When will this take place?If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!" (1 Corinthians 6:1-3) QUOTE (tomwebster @ Feb 25 2009, 03:32 PM)
    setfree, I am working on a Scripture study that will answer this question for you. It will be posted in a different topic in the Deeper Bible study area. I might not get it finished and posted until after a meeting I need to leave for shortly. Hang tight!
    Thank you! Because if I am wrong I would love to be shown!
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (tomwebster @ Feb 25 2009, 03:32 PM)
    QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 25 2009, 03:07 PM)
    The problem with your thinking... God is not going to kill anybody's soul until the Millennium Reign is over. He is going to kill those souls at the Great White Throne Judgment... AKA Judgment Day... We are going to be forced back into our spiritual body, which is our original body. God does not need human bodies at His Millennium Reign.
    Jordan, you might be "forced" into your spiritual body but I am looking forward to leaving this corruptible flesh body and putting on my spiritual body again. Take your Strong's and follow the word "harpazō" back to the root word "nâsâh." ...Tom, you ain't getting my point. I am really looking forward to leaving my flesh body also... the point I'm getting is, We (the world) are going to be back in our original body (spiritual body) regardless if unbelievers, Christians and Jews or anybody else who does not believe in God's Words, ... regardless if they wanted to have a choice to stay in their flesh body... To stay in our flesh body or go into our spiritual body is not our choice. God says we will go into that spiritual body...That's the kind of "forced" I was talking about. [​IMG]
     
  9. shutin45

    shutin45 New Member

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    Christina [​IMG]Hey Sis. I saw your question and would like to answer it, but I don't understand it.Christina wrote:"shutinlet me ask you a question does the Bible speak of three coming of Christ ??"Please clarify, and I'll gladly answer!I'm still concerned about loved ones going through the Tribulation Period. Scripture talks of martyrs etc. from those times, so doesn't that mean some - possibly Christians - will suffer or be killed?Later Brethren..........Jim
     
  10. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    John 16:33 - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
     
  11. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    If anyone has studied the tradition of the Jewish wedding..it will bring light to a lot of scriptures concerning the rapture...The Jewish marriage system of the first century involved several stages, and all of these stages were "foreshadowings" of the marriage of Christ and the Church: In the first century, the father of the groom made all of the arrangements for the marriage, and there was a bride-price that had to be paid. After the covenant of marriage was made, the man and woman were considered to be "set apart" for each other, and they were regarded as husband and wife. For example, Matthew 1:18-19 says that Mary was pledged (but not yet married) to Joseph, and Joseph considered divorcing her when he learned that she was pregnant. The book, Manners and Customs in the Bible (Victor H. Matthews, p.72-73), describes the Jewish custom of paying a bride-price. This book explains that David had to slay Goliath (1 Samuel 17:25) and present 100 Philistine foreskins to King Saul (1 Samuel 18:25) as the bride-price for Saul's daughter. David paid the bride-price in the form of blood and death. God the Father has made all of the arrangements for His Son's wedding, and Jesus paid the bride-price with His own blood. This is the background for the statement which the apostle Paul made to the church at Ephesus: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy" (Ephesians 5:25-26) The first step in the marriage ceremony of Christ and the Church was completed at the cross after Jesus came to His bride's "house" (the earth) and established this "new covenant." Another step in an ancient Jewish marriage was the "fetching of the bride." Here's how it worked: "After the marriage covenant was established, the groom left his bride at her home and returned to his father's house, where he remained separated from his bride for approximately 12 months. This afforded the bride time to gather her trousseau and prepare for married life. During this period of separation, the groom prepared a dwelling place in his father's house to which he could bring his bride later. At the end of the period of separation, the groom came usually at night to take his bride to live with him. The groom, best man, and other male escorts left the groom's father's house and conducted a torch-light procession to the home of the bride. Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the time of his coming. As a result, the groom's arrival was preceded by a shout, which forewarned the bride to be prepared for his coming." (Maranatha Our Lord, Come! , Dr. Renald E. Showers, p.165) Just as a first-century Jewish bride and groom were separated for a period of time before the wedding, Jesus and His bride have been separated for a period of time. Just as a first-century Jewish bride was "set apart" for her husband and had no idea when he would return to "fetch" her, the New Testament says that the Church is "set apart" for Christ, and we don't know when Jesus will return to "fetch" us. Concerning the "fetching of the bride" in a first-century Jewish marriage, notice how this sheds new light on a well-known passage of Scripture: "In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." (John 14:2-3) Jesus is preparing the new home for His bride, and in the above passage He promised to return to "fetch" us and take us back to His house with Him. Notice in the above passage that the Lord's bride (the Church) is so important to Him that He will come to "fetch" her Himself. He will not send anyone else (such as His angels) to get us, He will come for us personally. The Greek word which is translated as "take" in the above passage is the same word which is used in Matthew 1:20 and 1:24 when Joseph "took" Mary home as his wife. Notice that when Jesus comes to "fetch" us, He is not coming to be where we are (the earth), but instead He will "take" us so that we may be where He is (heaven, where He has prepared a place for us). Therefore, this is a "coming" of the Lord in which He will not actually be coming to the earth, so it is not the Second Coming of Christ. This "fetching of the bride" is what we call "the Rapture": "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) This passage says that the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, and then we will meet Him in the air and be with Him forever. Notice that Jesus will not simply drop us off in heaven and then return to the earth, because the above passage says that we will be with Him forever. The above passage describes the Rapture, and it exactly fits with what Jesus promised us in John 14:2-3 (above). Christ will come unexpectedly to "fetch" His bride, and we will be "caught up" to meet our bridegroom in the air, and then He will take us back into heaven to the place which He has prepared for us. So the pre-trib Rapture will be the fulfillment of this step in the marriage ceremony of Christ and the Church.
     
  12. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 25 2009, 04:02 PM)
    If we are all raptured, changed at the end of the tribulation and all the follower of satan are destroyed..satan in bound for a 1000 years....... Who are we going to reign over with Christ?
    The restored Jewish nation will enter into the millennium in mortal bodies. As Christ is returning the saints will be raptured, and at this point after the rapture but before the fire falls the Jews will realize that Christ is the true Messiah and repent therefore even though they will not receive immortal bodies in the rapture they will not be destroyed in the fire with the rest of the unbelievers.Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.Romans 11:25-36 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
     
  13. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 26 2009, 10:32 AM)
    The restored Jewish nation will enter into the millennium in mortal bodies. As Christ is returning the saints will be raptured, and at this point after the rapture but before the fire falls the Jews will realize that Christ is the true Messiah and repent therefore even though they will not receive immortal bodies in the rapture they will not be destroyed in the fire with the rest of the unbelievers.Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.Romans 11:25-36 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    So there will only be Jews in their motal bodies?Another step in the ancient Jewish marriage system was the wedding ceremony. The wedding of Christ and the Church will take place in heaven after we are Raptured and after the judgment seat of Christ: "Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)" (Revelation 19:7-8)The bride's righteous acts (which were done on earth) were purified at the judgment seat of Christ, and all of her unrighteous acts were burned away. By her righteous actions and behaviors while on earth, the bride had made herself ready for the purification at the judgment seat of Christ. The final step in the ancient Jewish marriage system was the wedding feast: "After the marriage was consummated, the groom came out of the bridal chamber and announced the consummation of the marriage to the members of the wedding party waiting outside (Ps. 19:5; Jn. 3:29). Then, as the groom went back to his bride in the chamber, the members of the wedding party returned to the wedding guests and announced the consummation of the marriage. Upon receiving this good news, the wedding guests remained in the groom's father's house for the next seven days, celebrating with a great wedding feast. During the seven days of the wedding feast, the bride and groom remained hidden in the bridal chamber (Gen. 29:21-23, 27-28) for "the seven days of the huppah." Afterwards, the groom came out of hiding, bringing his bride with him, but with her veil removed so that everyone could see who she was." (Maranatha Our Lord, Come! , Dr. Renald E. Showers, p.165) With this in mind, notice that the following passage mentions the wedding of the Lamb, and then the wedding supper of the Lamb, and then the Second Coming: "Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) Then the angel said to me, Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!'" And he added, "These are the true words of God." At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty." (Revelation 19:7-15) In the above passage we see the wedding of the Lamb, and the announcement of the wedding feast, and the Second Coming of Christ. Just as a first-century Jewish bride and groom remained hidden for a period of time, Christ and the Church will remain "hidden" in heaven during the Tribulation period. Just as a first-century Jewish bride and groom came out of hiding together after the seven days were over, Christ and the Church will come out of "hiding" together at the Second Coming (above). In the above passage, notice that the bride is described as wearing fine linen, bright and clean (the Greek word for "bright" has the meaning of "radiant white"), which symbolizes the righteous acts that we did while we were on the earth. Now notice what the "armies of heaven" are wearing in the above passage as they follow Jesus out of heaven down to the earth. They are wearing fine linen, white and clean, which is what the bride was wearing just a few verses earlier. God does not do anything haphazardly or without reason, so there is a reason why God showed this to the apostle John. This indicates that since we are the bride of Christ, we are also the armies of heaven. Therefore, we will come down from heaven (out of "hiding") with Jesus at the Second Coming, just as a first-century Jewish bride and groom came out of hiding together after the wedding feast. In fact, notice that we will not become the armies of heaven because we are the armies of heaven on earth right now, as Ephesians 6:10-18 and other passages make clear. Since we will come down out of heaven with Jesus at the Second Coming, this means that the Rapture will take place before the Second Coming. These were the basic stages of an ancient Jewish marriage (as described by various Bible scholars). For a more detailed and fascinating description of ancient Jewish marriage traditions and their parallels with the Church, see Ancient Jewish Marriage Traditions and Their Fulfillment in Jesus the Messiah .
     
  14. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 26 2009, 11:40 AM)
    So there will only be Jews in their motal bodies?
    I do think it is possible that some Gentiles will refuse to receive the mark of the beast, and not accept Christ until He is returning after the rapture and be spared destruction (there seems to be some mention of human Gentiles during the Millennium in the O.T.) However I am not positive of that. I do know that God will keep His covenant with Israel , and bring them into the Millennium saving them in one day.As far as the rest of your post and the wedding in heaven and the Jewish wedding comparesons are extra biblical propaganda needed by pretribbers to support their false belief because scripture does not.Pretrib ''Theologians'' teach that Jesus comes before the tribulation, secretly in the clouds, to snatch the church from the earth, and take us to Heaven. So that we will miss the tribulation period, spending it in Heaven, celebrating the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. While the unbelievers are left behind to suffer the wrath of God here on earth. Sounds real nice, only problem is, the Bible never teaches that Jesus comes before the tribulation. It doesn't say there will be a secret return of Christ at all. It never teaches us that we go to Heaven after the resurrection and/ or ''rapture'' of the just. The Bible does not say that we will miss the tribulation period, nor does it say when or where the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place. You will not find any aspect of the pretrib teaching in scripture.
     
  15. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 26 2009, 10:32 AM)
    The restored Jewish nation will enter into the millennium in mortal bodies. As Christ is returning the saints will be raptured, and at this point after the rapture but before the fire falls the Jews will realize that Christ is the true Messiah and repent therefore even though they will not receive immortal bodies in the rapture they will not be destroyed in the fire with the rest of the unbelievers.Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.Romans 11:25-36 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    Where does scriptures saying that some will go to the Millennium Reign with their sinful nature. I only notice that God says ALL. (I Corinthians 15:51-52) ALL means ALL and not SOME. This is just amazing... another doctrine of men! To say some is to make God a liar.
     
  16. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 26 2009, 11:15 AM)
    Where does scriptures saying that some will go to the Millennium Reign with their sinful nature. I only notice that God says ALL. (I Corinthians 15:51-52) ALL means ALL and not SOME. This is just amazing... another doctrine of men! To say some is to make God a liar.
    These that enter the millennium will be saved individuals, but will have their mortal bodies....their has to be someone that populated the millennium and also someone for Christ his bride to reign over. Right?QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 26 2009, 10:55 AM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=69953][/url]
    As far as the rest of your post and the wedding in heaven and the Jewish wedding comparesons are extra biblical propaganda needed by pretribbers to support their false belief because scripture does not. Sounds real nice, only problem is, the Bible never teaches that Jesus comes before the tribulation. It doesn't say there will be a secret return of Christ at all. It never teaches us that we go to Heaven after the resurrection and/ or ''rapture'' of the just. The Bible does not say that we will miss the tribulation period, nor does it say when or where the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place. You will not find any aspect of the pretrib teaching in scripture.
    Can you show me from what I posted with scriptures that it is only propaganda? Also in Rev. 19:9 " And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb, And he saith unto me, These are the true saying of God. John says that he heard this going on in heaven. Rev. 19:1John 14: 1-4 Says that Jesus is preparing a place for us in heaven...when will we be with him in heaven? I thought we were going to reign with him on earth????
     
  17. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 26 2009, 12:15 PM)
    Where does scriptures saying that some will go to the Millennium Reign with their sinful nature. I only notice that God says ALL. (I Corinthians 15:51-52) ALL means ALL and not SOME. This is just amazing... another doctrine of men! To say some is to make God a liar.
    Revelation 20 4-6 makes it clear that all who take part in the first resurrection cannot be affected by the 2nd death, yet ant the end of the millennium you see that many will turn from God and side with satan, and they will be destroyed and take part of the 2nd death. Who do you think these people are if they are not people in the millennium in there mortal bodies or with a sinful nature? Or is it you who would make God a liar?QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 26 2009, 12:38 PM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=69957][/url]
    These that enter the millennium will be saved individuals, but will have their mortal bodies....their has to be someone that populated the millennium and also someone for Christ his bride to reign over. Right?Can you show me from what I posted with scriptures that it is only propaganda? Also in Rev. 19:9 " And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb, And he saith unto me, These are the true saying of God. John says that he heard this going on in heaven. Rev. 19:1John 14: 1-4 Says that Jesus is preparing a place for us in heaven...when will we be with him in heaven? I thought we were going to reign with him on earth????
    Nothing in these scripture you have given say that the marriage of the Lamb or marriage supper is in Heaven.
     
  18. shutin45

    shutin45 New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 25 2009, 06:11 PM)
    John 16:33 - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
    Thanks Jordan for that Scripture and for any prayers anyone may've said for me.I'm better today.In Christ,Jim
     
  19. shutin45

    shutin45 New Member

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    Dear Setfree and others, I'm going to give the main Scriptural references - two verses - that make it very hard to support a pretrib rapture:[sup]II Thessalonians 2:3[/sup]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Isn't that the anti-Christ? The next Verse seems to be saying so: [sup]4[/sup]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.Only the anti-Christ will do this after his "strange act" and other events that take place during the Tribulation Period. Even pre-tribs know that, so if that day will not come until then, it's after the Tribulation Period starts, and our being taken away is therefore after pre-trib.What contrary Scriptural references are there for those us who want to know the Truth?Sometimes when I need answers or guidance, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY...I feel close to God and I feel I'm not quenching the Spirit due to sin - commission or omission - in my life, I earnestly pray and then open my Bible to where I hope the Holy Spirit is guiding.Such led me to that Verse in II Thessalonians and I was convicted to change my belief. I wonder if other Christians have tried that? While God only does whatever for whoever based on His reasons, He may do that for others. I've thought given the sorry good-for-nothing sinner that I was (and will still be, but NOT easily) , and limited to using a computer to fellowship/learn due to social phobia, and the fact that I'm the least of any, that there was little He could have for me to do. I think what He does via the Bible thing, revelations from TV Evangelists that at unusual times coincidentally confirm what I'm doing, and positive feedback from my Brethren are His way of telling me I'm doing what he wants. It's NOT an ego thing, but a confirmation. My point? I hope He'll do the Bible thing for others that NEED SUCH. It's amazing and will put you on your knees in thankful or trembling prayer. Praise the Lord!!!So, in closing, what Scriptural way around such a clear guide to timing is there? IN PURSUIT OF THE TRUTH!!! NOT just because of my belief [​IMG] Let us reason together on this in a manner that is pleasing to our Lord (following Biblical guidance for such will please Him), that won't raise communication barriers (BUT...be thankful and blessed by negative things - they can help us grow and show Christian love), and that will help us learn more of His word [​IMG] .I hope you all have a blessed weekend!!In Christ,Jim
     
  20. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    There are two many differences in the two coming for them to be one and the same!The scriptures that show the 2cd coming...Daniel 2:44-45;7:9-14; 12:1-3Zech. 14:1-15Matt. 13:41; 24:15-31; 26:64Mk. 13:14-27; 14:62Luke 21:25-28Acts 1:9-21; 3:19-211 Thess. 3:132 Thess. 1:6-10; 2:82 Peter 3:1-4Jude 14-15Rev. 1:7; 19:11-20:6; 22:7, 12, 20These scriptures show the raptureJn. 14:1-31 Cor. 15:1-531 Thess. 4:13-18Rom. 6:191 Cor. 1:7-8; 16:22Phil. 3:20-21Col. 3:41 thess. 1:10, 2:19; 5:9 ; 5:232 Thess. 2:1,31 Tim. 6:142 Tim. 4:1Titus 2:13Heb. 9:28James 5:7-20 Pet. 1:7, 131 Jn. 2:28-32Jude 21Rev. 2:25; 3:10Notice the difference...Rapture / 2cd coming Translation of believers / No translation of believersTranslation saints go to heaven / translated saints return to earthEarth in not judged / Earth judgedimmenent/any moment/signless / follows definite signsnot in Old Testament prophecy / Predicted in Old Test.Believers only / Affects all men on earthBefore the day of wrath / concludes day of wrathno reference to satan / Satan is bound at endComes for his own / Comes with his owncomes in air / Comes to earthHe claims his bride / Comes with his brideOnly his own see him / Every eye sees himGreat trib. begins / Millinium beginsChurch believers/ raised / The Old Test. saints not raised til after Mill. (Daniel 12)QUOTE (shutin45 @ Feb 26 2009, 01:01 PM)
    Dear Setfree and others, I'm going to give the main Scriptural references - two verses - that make it very hard to support a pretrib rapture:[sup]II Thessalonians 2:3
    I explained this in the closed rapture thread # 32 and 34....
     
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