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The Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by shutin45, Feb 24, 2009.

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  1. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (shutin45 @ Feb 26 2009, 02:01 PM)
    Dear Setfree and others, I'm going to give the main Scriptural references - two verses - that make it very hard to support a pretrib rapture:[sup]II Thessalonians 2:3
    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 26 2009, 03:15 PM)
    I explained this in the closed rapture thread # 32 and 34....
    You cannot just explain away God's word. you either accept it or reject it.
     
  2. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 26 2009, 03:00 PM)
    You cannot just explain away God's word. you either accept it or reject it.
    Well, thus far I reject your interpretation of it. I believe there is more evidence toward the rapture.To many questions not answered with scriptures for me to believe your way. If my Father has many mansions and Christ is going to prepare a place for me...I am going to be waiting with anticipation for his coming.And do not come back with the illusion of deception...because the anti christ is not coming in the clouds, and he is not going to put his foot on the sea and land. So I will not be deceived! Never know...by not believing in the rapture, you might be left behind because of your unbelief! The foolish virgins were not ready when the bridegroom came...When will the Old Testament saints be resurrected? Who is the church?
     
  3. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 26 2009, 03:52 PM)
    ....When will the Old Testament saints be resurrected? Who is the church?
    Looks like topics for a new thread, why don't you start one or two. [​IMG]
     
  4. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 26 2009, 04:52 PM)
    Well, thus far I reject your interpretation of it. I believe there is more evidence toward the rapture.
    The problem is I am not interpreting scripture just accepting it as written. To where you must explain it away to hold on to your false view.
     
  5. bullfighter

    bullfighter New Member

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    ///////////// can you till me what the woman and the heal and the snake thing is back in gen.The problem is I am not interpreting scripture just accepting it as written. To where you must explain it away to hold on to your false view.[/quote]
     
  6. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 26 2009, 05:23 PM)
    The problem is I am not interpreting scripture just accepting it as written. To where you must explain it away to hold on to your false view.
    I am not the one explaining away the rapture!! Jesus promised that he was preparing a place for me, and that he would receive me to himself..John 14:2,3 That is his word!The rapture is all through the Bible ...Enoch Gen5:42 Heb. 11:5 Elijah 2 Kings 2:1,11; Jesus Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11//
     
  7. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 26 2009, 08:01 PM)
    QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 26 2009, 05:23 PM)
    The problem is I am not interpreting scripture just accepting it as written. To where you must explain it away to hold on to your false view.
    I am not the one explaining away the rapture!! Jesus promised that he was preparing a place for me, and that he would receive me to himself..John 14:2,3 That is his word!The rapture is all through the Bible ...Enoch Gen5:42 Heb. 11:5 Elijah 2 Kings 2:1,11; Jesus Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11//Says who setfree? You and your mind is making everybody on this site sick. The Rapture does not exist in God's Words. You want to believe that? That is fine by me... but I am not going to let a soul like you mislead everybody else. Do you not realize what the punishment is going to be when you preach Satan's lies over God's Words. Hey if you want to be comfortable with this sort of crime, that's fine by me. Your soul, not mine. Your choice, not mine.This "mansion" you speak of have nothing to do with the Rapture as it doesn't exist. It is a dwelling place that takes at the Millennium Reign.However the true dwelling place takes place after the Millennium Reign.
     
  8. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 26 2009, 09:01 PM)
    I am not the one explaining away the rapture!! Jesus promised that he was preparing a place for me, and that he would receive me to himself..John 14:2,3 That is his word!The rapture is all through the Bible ...Enoch Gen5:42 Heb. 11:5 Elijah 2 Kings 2:1,11; Jesus Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11//
    No one doubts that Jesus will receive us into Himself the problem is that He is not going to do this before the Tribulation to whisk us away to heaven but as He is returning to earth to set up His Millennial reign.
     
  9. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 26 2009, 08:38 PM)
    I am not the one explaining away the rapture!! Jesus promised that he was preparing a place for me, and that he would receive me to himself..John 14:2,3 That is his word!The rapture is all through the Bible ...Enoch Gen5:42 Heb. 11:5 Elijah 2 Kings 2:1,11; Jesus Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11//Says who setfree? You and your mind is making everybody on this site sick. The Rapture does not exist in God's Words. You want to believe that? That is fine by me... but I am not going to let a soul like you mislead everybody else. Do you not realize what the punishment is going to be when you preach Satan's lies over God's Words. Hey if you want to be comfortable with this sort of crime, that's fine by me. Your soul, not mine. Your choice, not mine.This "mansion" you speak of have nothing to do with the Rapture as it doesn't exist. It is a dwelling place that takes at the Millennium Reign.However the true dwelling place takes place after the Millennium Reign.
    As always...accusation, assumptions without scripture!!!!
     
  10. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 26 2009, 09:38 PM)
    I am not the one explaining away the rapture!! Jesus promised that he was preparing a place for me, and that he would receive me to himself..John 14:2,3 That is his word!The rapture is all through the Bible ...Enoch Gen5:42 Heb. 11:5 Elijah 2 Kings 2:1,11; Jesus Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11//Says who setfree? You and your mind is making everybody on this site sick. The Rapture does not exist in God's Words. You want to believe that? That is fine by me... but I am not going to let a soul like you mislead everybody else. Do you not realize what the punishment is going to be when you preach Satan's lies over God's Words. Hey if you want to be comfortable with this sort of crime, that's fine by me. Your soul, not mine. Your choice, not mine.This "mansion" you speak of have nothing to do with the Rapture as it doesn't exist. It is a dwelling place that takes at the Millennium Reign.However the true dwelling place takes place after the Millennium Reign.
    There is a rapture Jordan, I could post the scriptures but I am sure you know them, however it is as I said at the post trib return of Christ not before the Tribulation. The ''Mansions'' we receive are our Heavenly immortal bodies that we go into the millennium with.2nd Corinthians 5:1-41 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Our earthly house is this body we have now, our heavenly house is the mansion referred to in John 14:2 is our resurrected immortal divine body, and the place Jesus is going to prepare for us is indeed after the millennium it is New Jerusalem.
     
  11. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 26 2009, 09:21 PM)
    No one doubts that Jesus will receive us into Himself the problem is that He is not going to do this before the Tribulation to whisk us away to heaven but as He is returning to earth to set up His Millennial reign.
    Where did Jesus go to prepare a place? HeavenWhere is he taking us to? HeavenWhen will this take place? ??? Beore the second comingIf we come back to earth WITH him where did we come from? HeavenNow who is explaining away scripture? Read John 14:1-4 and tell me it says different!
     
  12. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 26 2009, 10:30 PM)
    Where did Jesus go to prepare a place? HeavenWhere is he taking us to? HeavenWhen will this take place? ??? Beore the second comingIf we come back to earth WITH him where did we come from? HeavenNow who is explaining away scripture? Read John 14:1-4 and tell me it says different!
    Your 1st statement, ''where did Jesus go to prepare a place? Heaven''...... O.K. you are right.Your 2nd statement, ''where is He taking us to? Heaven''... This is an unbiblical statement nowhere in scripture does the Bible say Jesus is taking us to Heaven after receiving us into Himself.Your 3rd statement, ''when will this take place? before the 2nd coming''...this is not only unbiblical, but it is an anti biblical statement, the Bible makes it very clear that the receiving of the body of Christ, the rapture, the catching away of the living saints, or what ever you want to call it, takes place at the 2nd coming not before it.Your 4th statement ''If we return to earth with Christ, where did He come from? Heaven''...Yes this is true Jesus is coming from Heaven with the dead in Christ when He returns at the 2nd coming and we meet them in the air on their way to earth.
     
  13. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 26 2009, 09:26 PM)
    There is a rapture Jordan, I could post the scriptures but I am sure you know them, however it is as I said at the post trib return of Christ not before the Tribulation. The ''Mansions'' we receive are our Heavenly immortal bodies that we go into the millennium with.2nd Corinthians 1:1-41 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Our earthly house is this body we have now, our heavenly house is the mansion referred to in John 14:2 is our resurrected immortal divine body, and the place Jesus is going to prepare for us is indeed after the millennium it is New Jerusalem.
    You need to look up the Greek words for mansion and house...they are different!MansionMone: 3438 monhv Mone (mon-ay'); Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine from (3306) a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode to make an (one's) abode House..the only other time this is used is in Jude 6...this is speaking of our spiritual bodies!Oiketerion: 3613 oijkhthvrion Oiketerion (oy-kay-tay'-ree-on); Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter from a presumed derivative of (3611) (equivalent to (3612)) a dwelling place, habitation of the body as a dwelling place for the spirit If mansions referred to our heavenly bodies...they would be the same word!
     
  14. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    The only other place the greek word ''Mone'' is in John 14:23 which says if we love Christ and keep His commandment then He and the Father will make their abode in us. So we are literally a mansion for God Himself to dwell in. Further more there is no need to use the exact word to mean the same thing, you see I just used exact and same they both means the exact same thing. In one instance John is quoting Jesus and in the other Paul is writing to the Corinthians there is no reason for your false claim that they would have had to use the exact same word for it to have the same meaning. Jesus abodes in us now, and we will abode in our heavenly immortal resurrected body after the resurrection of the just.
     
  15. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    Well...until these can be answered with scripture...I will have to believe in the rapture.1. We are promised...I will also keep thee from [/b]the hour of temptation. (Rev. 3:10) We get the word exit from this Greek word! Ek: 1537 ejk Ek (ek); Word Origin: Greek, Preposition a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause out of, from, by, away from So where are we exiting too?2. We are not the object of God's wrath. (Rev. 6:16; 1 Thess. 5:9; Luke 21:36) If we are the body of Christ, why would he do harm to himself (Eph. 5:29; 32)3. We are to Escape (not endure) the trib.(Luke 21:36) How are we going to escape?4. Scripture tells us to look up( not out) for our redemption. (Luke 21:28)5. When war comes...the ambassadors are called home...We are Christ ambassadors (2 Cor. 5:20)6. Restrainer in 2 Thess 2:7 has to be removed before the anti-christ comes. Who is the only one stopping the mystery of iniquity? Only God(Holy Spirit) can stop sin!7. Twinkle of eye is how we will leave...not an extended activity!8. We will leave in the air...not earth.9. Woman is Israel in Rev. 12:5 not the church! The child (Body) is caught up(harpazo) to heaven.10. Marriage supper in heaven is before Rev. 19:11-14. When He comes to make war!Not only these but also some things to consider....*The lambstands in Rev. 1:20, they are the church. in Rev. 4:5 they are in heaven...how did we get there?*The 24 elders (24 priest in Daniel)..we are priest! they are identified as the redeemed in Rev. 5:9:10 and they worship before the lamb receives the scroll.....the tribulation begins when the scrolls unsealed.*70th week in Daniel is in detail in Rev. 6-19.Have you ever wondered?????Why Enoch was taken out the way he was before the flood? Could it be a picture of the rapture? Noah and his family.. could they be the tribulation saints that survived the tribulation to repopulate the millenium?Could those that perish be the ones that God will destroy at his coming??Yes! THis is a possible picture! Old conceals, New reveals!Have you ever wondered why Issac(Jesus) is out of the picture after Abraham was going to sacrifice him...until Abraham's(God) servant (Holy Spirit) brought rebecca(church/bride) home? Seems to be a pretty good picture of The wedding post!Have you ever wondered where Ruth is during the threshing floor scene? (Ruth 3:7-9)Why is Daniel absent from the firey funance? And one more thing the rapture was taught long before some are saying here...Ephraem of Nisibis sermon (306-373 A.D.) "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come..."Also many others in 1687,1738,1748,1763,1792...and the second century... Hyspolybis, a disciple of Irenaeuis.One of the biggest evidence would have to be the Imminency ( Jesus might return at any moment). That will have to be another post.
     
  16. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 26 2009, 10:46 PM)
    The only other place the greek word ''Mone'' is in John 14:23 which says if we love Christ and keep His commandment then He and the Father will make their abode in us. So we are literally a mansion for God Himself to dwell in. Further more there is no need to use the exact word to mean the same thing, you see I just used exact and same they both means the exact same thing. In one instance John is quoting Jesus and in the other Paul is writing to the Corinthians there is no reason for your false claim that they would have had to use the exact same word for it to have the same meaning. Jesus abodes in us now, and we will abode in our heavenly immortal resurrected body after the resurrection of the just.
    Just to add a little to the Greek words "monē" and "menō." They are the same word but a different part of speechJoh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode(G3438) with him.Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth(G3306) in me, he doeth the works. Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions(G3438): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. G3438μονήmonēmon-ay'From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.Part of Speech: noun feminine1) a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode2) to make an (one’s) abode3) metaphorically of the God the Holy Spirit indwelling believersTotal KJV Occurrences: 2abode, 1Joh_14:23mansions, 1Joh_14:2G3306μένωmenōmen'-oA primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.Part of Speech: verb1) to remain, abide1a) in reference to place1a1) to sojourn, tarry1a2) not to depart1a2a) to continue to be present1a2b) to be held, kept, continually1b) in reference to time1b1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure1b1a) of persons, to survive, live1c) in reference to state or condition1c1) to remain as one, not to become another or different2) to wait for, await oneTotal KJV Occurrences: 118abide, 27Mat_10:11, Mar_6:10, Luk_19:4-5 (2), Luk_24:29, Joh_12:46, Joh_14:16, Joh_15:4 (3), Joh_15:6-7 (3), Joh_15:10 (2), Act_16:15, Act_20:23, Act_27:31, 1Co_3:14, 1Co_7:8, 1Co_7:20, 1Co_7:24, 1Co_7:40, Phi_1:25, 1Jo_2:24, 1Jo_2:27-28 (2)abideth, 20Joh_3:36, Joh_8:35 (2), Joh_12:24, Joh_12:34, Joh_15:5, 1Co_13:13, 2Ti_2:13, Heb_7:3, 1Pe_1:23, 1Jo_2:6, 1Jo_2:10, 1Jo_2:14, 1Jo_2:17, 1Jo_2:27, 1Jo_3:6, 1Jo_3:14, 1Jo_3:24, 2Jo_1:9 (2)abode, 12Luk_1:56, Luk_8:27, Joh_1:32, Joh_4:39-40 (2), Joh_7:9, Joh_10:40, Joh_11:6, Act_18:3, Act_21:7-8 (2), 2Ti_4:20dwelleth, 10Joh_6:56, Joh_14:10, Joh_14:17, 1Jo_3:17, 1Jo_3:24, 1Jo_4:12, 1Jo_4:15-16 (3), 2Jo_1:2remain, 8Luk_10:7, Joh_15:11, Joh_15:16, Joh_19:31, 1Co_7:11, 1Co_15:6, Heb_12:27, 1Jo_2:24continue, 7Joh_8:31, Joh_15:9, 1Ti_2:15, 2Ti_3:14, Heb_13:1, 1Jo_2:24, Rev_17:10tarry, 6Mat_26:38, Mar_14:34, Luk_24:29, Joh_4:40, Joh_21:22, Act_18:20remaineth, 5Joh_9:41, 2Co_3:11, 2Co_3:14, 2Co_9:9, 1Jo_3:9remained, 3Mat_11:23, Act_5:4, Act_27:41tarried, 3Act_9:43, Act_20:5, Act_20:15abiding, 2Joh_5:38, 1Jo_3:15continued, 2Joh_2:12, 1Jo_2:19dwell, 2Act_28:16, 1Jo_4:13dwelt, 2Joh_1:39, Act_28:30endureth, 2Joh_6:27, 1Pe_1:25continueth, 1Heb_7:24continuing, 1Heb_13:14dwellest, 1Joh_1:38enduring, 1Heb_10:34present, 1Joh_14:25remaining, 1Joh_1:33stand, 1Rom_9:11QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 26 2009, 11:05 PM)
    ...Why is Daniel absent from the firey funance? ...
    He is in a different part of the country. Read the book!
     
  17. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (tomwebster @ Feb 26 2009, 11:25 PM)
    He is in a different part of the country. Read the book!
    I knew where he was! It was a thinking question!!!! We are not of this world, we are from another country! That is where we will be during the firey trials!!!!There are a number of passages in the New Testament which contain the idea that Jesus might return at any moment. In fact, apart from some of the Gospel writers, every single human author of the New Testament (writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) mentioned the nearness of the Lord's return. Before we examine those passages, let's quickly review the various views of the Rapture: According to the post-trib view, the Antichrist will sign a seven-year treaty with Israel (which will be the beginning of the seven-year Tribulation), then after three and a half years he will break that treaty, then three and a half years later Jesus will return to the earth at the Second Coming and all Christians will be Raptured at that time. According to the various mid-trib views, the Antichrist will sign a seven-year treaty with Israel (which will be the beginning of the seven-year Tribulation), then after three and a half years he will break that treaty, then all Christians will be Raptured sometime from that point until the end of the Tribulation, then Jesus will return to the earth at the Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation. According to the pre-trib view, all Christians will be Raptured at any moment when Jesus returns for the Church, then some time will pass (seconds, hours, days, months, or years), then the Antichrist will sign a seven-year treaty with Israel (which will be the beginning of the seven-year Tribulation), then after three and a half years he will break that treaty, then three and a half years later Jesus will return to the earth at the Second Coming. In the post-trib view and the various mid-trib views (above), notice that the Rapture will still be years away even after the Tribulation begins. Therefore, the effect of the post-trib view and the various mid-trib views is to cause us to expect the coming of the Antichrist before we expect the coming of Christ and the Rapture. This means that the pre-trib view is the only view of the Rapture which causes us to be eagerly watching and waiting for the Lord's coming for the Church at any moment, as described in the following passages: "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed." (Romans 13:10-11) Notice that the apostle Paul wanted his readers to understand the present time. What did Paul specifically want them to understand? That the hour had come for them to "wake up" and realize that their salvation (their transformation from mortality to immortality at the Rapture, as in 1 Corinthians 15:50-53) was nearer than ever before. This attitude of "waking up" and being expectant is not realistic under the mid-trib and post-trib views, because with those views Paul would have had to say something like, "When the Antichrist signs a treaty with Israel, then you'll have several years before you need to "wake up" and begin expecting your ultimate salvation from mortality to immortality." Paul considered the Lord's coming for the Church (what we call "the Rapture") to be near, not years away after a number of events have taken place (such as the activities of the Antichrist). Only the pre-trib view of the Rapture allows for the expectant attitude which Paul described in the above passage. There are other scriptures...I will take one at a time.
     
  18. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 27 2009, 12:05 AM)
    Well...until these can be answered with scripture...I will have to believe in the rapture.1. We are promised...I will also keep thee from [/b]the hour of temptation. (Rev. 3:10) We get the word exit from this Greek word!
    This is not the best you can do is it? Ohh yeah it is, it is all pretribbers have to hang their hat on, well real short. In Revelation 3:11 Jesus tell us to hold to what we have until He returns. so would Jesus tell us we are going to be raptured in verse 10 and then tell us to hold fast until the post trib 2nd coming in bverse 11? No He wouldn't so what up?John 17:15 should explain it.....I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.God does not need to remove us from the earth to keep us from the day of temptation or any other form of evil.
     
  19. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 27 2009, 10:04 AM)
    This is not the best you can do is it? Ohh yeah it is, it is all pretribbers have to hang their hat on, well real short. In Revelation 3:11 Jesus tell us to hold to what we have until He returns. so would Jesus tell us we are going to be raptured in verse 10 and then tell us to hold fast until the post trib 2nd coming in bverse 11? No He wouldn't so what up?John 17:15 should explain it.....I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.God does not need to remove us from the earth to keep us from the day of temptation or any other form of evil.
    He does not need to remove us...but he choses too. You only reply to part of my post...but ignore the ones you do not know the answers too.
     
  20. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 27 2009, 11:24 AM)
    He does not need to remove us...but he choses too. You only reply to part of my post...but ignore the ones you do not know the answers too.
    All the rest of them were to ridiculous to give an answer to. The fact that you put some of them on your list meanss you are already to indoctrinated to listen to anyone anyway. for instance.....QUOTE
    4. Scripture tells us to look up( not out) for our redemption. (Luke 21:28)
    When you read this we are already knee deep into the tribulation when we are told to look up for our redemption draws near.Luke 2116 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.19 In your patience possess ye your souls.20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. You see when the Tribulation has started and these thing that will not happen until we are deep into the tribulation begin to take place, THEN and only then do we know our redemption is drawing near. It is impossible for anyone to get a pretrib view from this. So like I said for this verse to be on your list just shows how far off you really are.
     
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