The Reality of the Millennial Kingdom

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VictoryinJesus

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By understanding about Christ's enemies is not cursing them. If you think it is, then you have a very skewed understanding about those very verses you quote.

Now look at the parable of the tares Jesus gave in Matthew 13 and try to tell me those 'tares' represent God's children.

What? I’m confused. We are to bless and not curse. Agree. Did we disagree and I missed it? Opposite of: Acts 23:11-14 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. [12] And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul. [13] And they were more than forty which had made this conspiracy. [14] And they came to the chief priests and elders, and said, We have bound ourselves under a great curse, that we will eat nothing until we have slain Paul.
 

Trekson

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Uh huh. I'm waiting for the 'immortal' part. You know, that declaration that all humans are immortal, even the wicked?
If ones spirit isn't immortal than one would not be resurrected, there would be no sense in it. What would be the point of raising a person up just to condemn them eternally to the state they were already in? I will concede that God is the only one who can destroy the immortal soul.
 

Trekson

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the ten horns and beast hate her. All man’s power and kingdoms come against her.

I don't see why you say the whore would be bigger than the US. Sounds like a ten nation Islamic confederacy to me and they already hate us.
 

Trekson

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The 'goats' on His left hand (Matt.25) are the nations of unsaved that He and His elect will reign over during the 1,000 years. It will include deceived brethren who fell away also. That is the "resurrection of damnation"; those are still in a liable to perish state. Christ's elect, the first resurrection (meaning first resurrection unto eternal Life through Jesus), will be teaching them the difference between the clean and unclean, etc. That goes on during the whole 1,000 years.

The goats on the left hand are immediately cast into the lake of fire vs. 14 only the Gentile sheep enter into the millennium and while many may not be saved they will be deemed worthy to enter into the millennial era because they passed the parameters of judgment vss. 35-40. The 144,000+ have already been set apart to enter the millennial era.
 

VictoryinJesus

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I don't see why you say the whore would be bigger than the US. Sounds like a ten nation Islamic confederacy to me and they already hate us.

Revelation 18:22-24
[22] And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be , shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; [23] And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

-24] And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Luke 11:50-51
[50] That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; [51] From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Matthew 23:29-32
[29] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, [30] And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. [31] Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. [32] Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
 

Trekson

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If you believe that God needed Jesus to die to make you acceptable to Him it is bc you are still confused, still in the world, and still under the law, so help me God

Even born again, in our human state we are still unworthy of God. The ONLY thing that makes us acceptable to God is the Blood of Christ covering us. That is all God needs to see. If he doesn't see that, then no matter how good we may have been, we will still be on our way to hell.
 

Trekson

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Revelation 18:22-24
[22] And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be , shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; [23] And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

-24] And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Luke 11:50-51
[50] That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; [51] From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Matthew 23:29-32
[29] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, [30] And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. [31] Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. [32] Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

If any nation could be said they are ruling the world (even in a limited scope) it would be the US, as we are now. Another clue is Rev. 18:11. At present we are the largest importer of the world's goods. If you really wanted to study this compare Rev. 17 & 18 with Jer. 50 &51. Could that change at some point? Yes, and if it does I will revisit my conclusion again. At some point this nation will start killing Christians, I have no doubt about it. There are many too many liberals who would like to see that happening already!! Once they deem us crazy and a threat to the nation's safety (Hillary already made this claim at the world summit in Brazil back in the 90's) for our destructive beliefs, then the GT will begin upon His church. When this happens is when the martyr's under the throne (5th seal) will begin to pile up.
 

Naomi25

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How many millions more Christians have to die before you see this is untrue.
First...it is hardly going to effect the death rate of Christians world over if I change my mind on what the bible says on this matter. That rests solidly in God's hand, for God's purposes...regardless if Satan is bound or not at this time. God is Sovereign.

Secondly...if I am wrong, if Christ did NOT say that:

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

Or if this is not true:

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. -Ephesians 1:20–21

Or if Rev 20 is not specific about this fact:

And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. -Revelation 20:2–3

Then how about you attempt to prove it biblically?

By faith, yes but in reality, NO. People still die, people still sin and Satan is still at work in the world. The deception isn't about going to war with the saints. The devil's deceptions are everything in the world that points people away from Christ. This won't become a reality until after the millennium, after the GWTJ and after the new heavens and new earth. Death won't be defeated until folks stop dying.

But, don't you claim that in the Millennium, the time that Satan will be 'bound' and Christ will be sitting on his earthly throne, that there will still be death? Something about the 'unbeliever reaching 100 shall die'. And there still will be revolt against Christ? People banding together at the end against him. In essence, it's not that different from what we have now.

You say that "deception isn't about going to war with the saints". But...what does Revelation say?

The Defeat of Satan
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. -Revelation 20:7–10

It's also interesting that you say "death won't be defeated until folks stop dying". 1 Cor 15 tells us when that is, actually...the defeat of death. It's at Christ's return...his "parousia"...παρουσίᾳ. And that is not at the end of your Millennium...fits with mine, however.

When Jesus is speaking "My kingdom is not of this world", He is not speaking of its location. He is saying that it is not of human origin but from God. It is dependent on God and our relationship to him, So Christ's kingdom is wherever His servants are that put their trust and faith in God (within us) and this will continue into and through the millennial era.

These things are not mutually exclusive, in fact, I would say it's almost the point. Of course we know that the Kingdom is from God and dependent on our relationship with him. That was the purpose of the temple curtain being torn. In a very real way this spiritual relationship we have with Christ at our head IS the Kingdom, him ruling forever.
However, that does not change the very clear words of Christ...he did not come to set himself up as an earthly King...that was not why he came:

Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself. -John 6:15

And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, -Daniel 2:44

At his triumph on the cross and his subsequent resurrection and ascention, Christ ushered in the Kingdom that would never end. It can never be destroyed because it rests on his victory and it will stand forever because it does not rest on the fickleness of this world. Having a 1000 year reign, only having that end with rebellion is not exactly what is in view here. Sure, Christ wins easily, but the Millennium then "ends" and we move on to the eternal state. That Kingdom still 'ends'. Scripture tells us that Christ's Kingdom NEVER ends. Either he has a spiritual, heavenly Kingdom now that he won with his victory that will stretch on into eternity, secure in his victory, or else we run into trouble that the text doesn't give us much leave to....

That is untrue, it is explained within the context by the obvious clues concerning her identity. Knowledge of scripture tells you that this is relating to Joseph's dream. The context tells you: She is with child, (Mary or symbolic for Israel but because of the 12 stars which in the dream, the 11 stars counted for Joseph's brothers add Joseph and you get 12. The 12 sons are where the tribes of Israel comes from so logic dictates the woman must be Israel), she delivers a child who the devil wants to destroy. We know this child is Jesus, so again, it is either Mary or symbolic of Israel. The child will rule the nations with a rod of Iron. (Undeniably Christ). The woman flees into the desert for 3 1/2 yrs. Was this Mary going into Egypt? No. Verse 14 of Rev. 12 makes the implication that this is not a single person and is at a time when there are airplanes.

Ok. So...you guys go back into the OT searching for other texts to explain the symbolism? So...let me ask you....how, exactly, are you ANY different from us? That's exactly what we do. To a T.
Except the airplane. Don't know where you get that from. None of that in the OT, and certainly no lenience given in the text to allow for that, literal interpretation or otherwise.

No wobbling with very much a rhyme and reason for accepting Rev. as literal.

Except, apparently, when you see demonic beings as helicopters. Yep, staying true to the literal hermeneutic there. I'm sure we can find those in the OT as well.

Christ doesn't return at the end of each event as shown in another thread. Are the events similar? Yes, but they differ from source, scope and intensity. While we have had all those things since the beginning of time, there will come a time when they shall literally become the beginning of the end.

You know how the gospels all differ slightly? Why's that? Its because they're all from different opinions. Different angles. And yet, we still consider them reliable. In fact, we consider them reliable because they're slightly different. It'd be dodgy if they were exactly the same.
The same can be said for Revelation. Each time the visions 'cycle' they change slightly. Why? Because we are seeing them from a different angle. It gives us slightly different information.
But, it doesn't change the fact that many of the occurances are far too similar to brush off. As I've just mentioned in another post, they are either the same events, or cataclysmic occurances happen, only to "magically" un-happen so they can happen again later.
And I don't see any biblical evidence suggesting a sensible answer for this within the 'literal' hermeneutic.
 

Enoch111

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Secondly...if I am wrong, if Christ did NOT say that: Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36
It is really interesting how the naysayers misapply this verse by taking it out of context. So what is the context, and why is this verse totally out of context when discussing Christ's future Millennial Kingdom?

1. Who was being addressed? Pontius Pilate, governor of Judea, and representative of the emperor Tiberius Caesar of Rome.
2. Pilate had asked Jesus if He was the king of the Jews, since that would have an impact on the rule of Rome over Judea.
3. Jesus asked Pilate how he came to be asking this question.
4. Pilate became condescending and asked "Am I am Jew?" Then went on to say that the leaders of Israel had delivered Christ to him, and he needed to know what Christ had done (presumably to rouse the rabble against Rome since the Jewish leaders were the ones pitting Christ against Caesar).
5. It was in this context that Jesus of Nazareth said that His Kingdom was not of this world. And He went on to say that had His Kingdom been an earthly kingdom AT THAT TIME, the Jews could not have delivered Him to Pilate.
6. Why did Jesus say this? Because (1) He had been rejected as King-Messiah by the Jews, and (2) that was a part of God's perfect plan so that Christ be crucified for the sins of the whole world.

Now the naysayers simply take this out of context and claim that Jesus was denying that He would ever have a Kingdom on earth. And that is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. There are literally dozens of Scriptures in the Bible that confirm without the shadow of a doubt that Christ will rule this earth as King of kings and Lord of lords in the future. We can take just one passage from Daniel to confirm this, since it is very descriptive.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13,14)
 

CoreIssue

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Currently Christ's kingdom is a spiritual one encompassing the saints in heaven and those on the earth, spiritually.

In the MK Christ will rule the earth physically

In eternity the kingdom of God, New Jerusalem, will descend upon the new earth and all its inhabitants, not glorified will live with God in it for eternity.

What is interesting is we are not told where Saints that were neither church or Israel will live. But whether within the city or out on the new earth it will be paradise.
 

Naomi25

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It is really interesting how the naysayers misapply this verse by taking it out of context. So what is the context, and why is this verse totally out of context when discussing Christ's future Millennial Kingdom?

1. Who was being addressed? Pontius Pilate, governor of Judea, and representative of the emperor Tiberius Caesar of Rome.
2. Pilate had asked Jesus if He was the king of the Jews, since that would have an impact on the rule of Rome over Judea.
3. Jesus asked Pilate how he came to be asking this question.
4. Pilate became condescending and asked "Am I am Jew?" Then went on to say that the leaders of Israel had delivered Christ to him, and he needed to know what Christ had done (presumably to rouse the rabble against Rome since the Jewish leaders were the ones pitting Christ against Caesar).
5. It was in this context that Jesus of Nazareth said that His Kingdom was not of this world. And He went on to say that had His Kingdom been an earthly kingdom AT THAT TIME, the Jews could not have delivered Him to Pilate.
6. Why did Jesus say this? Because (1) He had been rejected as King-Messiah by the Jews, and (2) that was a part of God's perfect plan so that Christ be crucified for the sins of the whole world.
You list what is happening at the time, but miss the point of what Christ is saying entirely.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

Jesus is saying this: IF his Kingdom were of this world, his followers would indeed fight for him, because there is no doubt that he is King of Kings. That he tells his followers not to fight, that his Kingdom is NOT of this world, echos several other things that he told them. Things such as:

To unbelievers he said:

So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. -John 8:22–23

To believers he said:

If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. -John 15:19

They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. -John 17:16

What is the difference between being "of this word" and "not of this world"? It has to do with Christ's Kingdom...the kingdom of God...that which came with Christ and will be ultimately consumated at his second coming:

“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” -Matthew 3:2

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. -Matthew 12:28

And what does the Bible tell us about the Kingdom as it stands now?

He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.” He told them another parable. “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.” -Matthew 13:24–33

It tells us that it is a very present reality, starting small, but growing to an amazing size, even with 'weeds' among it, until the "harvest" at the end of the age.
This, and the other verses tell us a few things: The Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom that Christ is now ruling and reigning over (Eph 1:20) is both a heavenly and spiritual Kingdom that makes it's presence known here on earth. The presence here, however, is made known by making Christ's followers sure that they are "strangers" in this world. We are not "of this world", at home with it's sinful, fallen ways. Our home is with Christ, and he is not of this world, nor is his Kingdom.

Now the naysayers simply take this out of context and claim that Jesus was denying that He would ever have a Kingdom on earth. And that is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. There are literally dozens of Scriptures in the Bible that confirm without the shadow of a doubt that Christ will rule this earth as King of kings and Lord of lords in the future. We can take just one passage from Daniel to confirm this, since it is very descriptive.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13,14)
Here's the problem. Jesus is already the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Eph 1:20), and that has nothing to do with me 'naysaying' anything. If you can find and show any verses that tell me Christ IS NOT seated far above all rule and power and authority, I invite you to show it....
 

Trekson

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First...it is hardly going to effect the death rate of Christians world over if I change my mind on what the bible says on this matter. That rests solidly in God's hand, for God's purposes...regardless if Satan is bound or not at this time. God is Sovereign.

Secondly...if I am wrong, if Christ did NOT say that:

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36 Explained already

Or if this is not true:

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. -Ephesians 1:20–21 Not really relevant to the conversation.

Or if Rev 20 is not specific about this fact:

And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. -Revelation 20:2–3 In the future

Then how about you attempt to prove it biblically? It has been proven to you over and over again, you just don't want to accept. If you want the truth proven biblically, it's simple. Just read it as literal. If what you are reading makes sense, don't seek another sense and if it doesn't than just focus on the particular passage.



But, don't you claim that in the Millennium, the time that Satan will be 'bound' and Christ will be sitting on his earthly throne, that there will still be death? Something about the 'unbeliever reaching 100 shall die'. And there still will be revolt against Christ? People banding together at the end against him. In essence, it's not that different from what we have now.

When you read all about the millennial kingdom and you can't see the difference perhaps you are being blinded by some evil (non Satan?) related entity.

You say that "deception isn't about going to war with the saints". But...what does Revelation say?

The Defeat of Satan
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. -Revelation 20:7–10

Heavy sigh, while Satan's ultimate goal is to war against Christ and His followers, Satan is will be deceiving the earth in much the same way as he is doing now. Repeating the lie from the garden, creating unrest and dissatisfaction, bringing new sins and temptations into the world, re-creating the same type of liberalism we see going on today, pointing people away from Christ with false messages, false prophets and false teachers. This isn't going to be a momentary appearance. I think this will go on for centuries or more until the devil gets enough followers to go to war again.

It's also interesting that you say "death won't be defeated until folks stop dying". 1 Cor 15 tells us when that is, actually...the defeat of death. It's at Christ's return...his "parousia"...παρουσίᾳ. And that is not at the end of your Millennium...fits with mine, however.

Death will be defeated for the individual believers in Christ but not for the world in general. As Rev. 20:14 declares, death won't really be defeated until after the millennium and the GWTJ.

These things are not mutually exclusive, in fact, I would say it's almost the point. Of course we know that the Kingdom is from God and dependent on our relationship with him. That was the purpose of the temple curtain being torn. In a very real way this spiritual relationship we have with Christ at our head IS the Kingdom, him ruling forever.
However, that does not change the very clear words of Christ...he did not come to set himself up as an earthly King...that was not why he came:

Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself. -John 6:15

And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, -Daniel 2:44

Christ did not come to be an earthly king at that time. However, he will fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies the Jews were expecting at that time, at His second coming, including being anointed King over all the Earth!

At his triumph on the cross and his subsequent resurrection and ascention, Christ ushered in the Kingdom that would never end. It can never be destroyed because it rests on his victory and it will stand forever because it does not rest on the fickleness of this world. Having a 1000 year reign, only having that end with rebellion is not exactly what is in view here. Sure, Christ wins easily, but the Millennium then "ends" and we move on to the eternal state. That Kingdom still 'ends'. Scripture tells us that Christ's Kingdom NEVER ends. Either he has a spiritual, heavenly Kingdom now that he won with his victory that will stretch on into eternity, secure in his victory, or else we run into trouble that the text doesn't give us much leave to....You're confusing individuals with the world in general and no the kingdom will not "end" it just moves.

Ok. So...you guys go back into the OT searching for other texts to explain the symbolism? So...let me ask you....how, exactly, are you ANY different from us? That's exactly what we do. To a T.
Except the airplane. Don't know where you get that from. None of that in the OT, and certainly no lenience given in the text to allow for that, literal interpretation or otherwise.

The OT helps us to understand prophecy but it in no way defines it. We don't go "looking" for symbolism as in most cases, the NT defines the symbolism of the OT. If you are trying to base everything from the OT, you will never see the truth. Do you really think there is going to be a giant eagle taking away 144,000+? Sometimes you just gotta use the brains God gave us. Until fairly recently, no one could understand how the whole world at once could see what was happening with the two witnesses, but with the tech we have, that is now certainly understandable. As you said, how else is John going to describe things that he has no clue about? Only by using words and descriptions that are within his vocabulary. Part of the knowledge that will increase in Dan. 12, is just this type of thing.

Except, apparently, when you see demonic beings as helicopters. Yep, staying true to the literal hermeneutic there. I'm sure we can find those in the OT as well.

You know how the gospels all differ slightly? Why's that? Its because they're all from different opinions. Different angles. And yet, we still consider them reliable. In fact, we consider them reliable because they're slightly different. It'd be dodgy if they were exactly the same.
The same can be said for Revelation. Each time the visions 'cycle' they change slightly. Why? Because we are seeing them from a different angle. It gives us slightly different information. Or, it could be that they literally change in scope, size and origin as stated earlier.
But, it doesn't change the fact that many of the occurances are far too similar to brush off. As I've just mentioned in another post, they are either the same events, or cataclysmic occurances happen, only to "magically" un-happen so they can happen again later.
And I don't see any biblical evidence suggesting a sensible answer for this within the 'literal' hermeneutic.

Well how about just plain common sense than. Can the same volcano erupt more than once? Is it possible that we could experience one earthquake followed by a stronger earthquake? Is it possible that a tsunami in one part of the world looks a lot like a tsunami in another part of the world. Is it possible for only part of the world to witness an eclipse? If part of the world doesn't see it, does that mean it never happened? Could a forest fire grow in size and become uncontrollable. When God says in Dan. 12 that our knowledge will increase and that concerns our understanding of prophecy as well, personally I believe it. Finally, when John is describing things that can only be understood with knowledge that we in the future now have, maybe it's time to realize that everything John is talking about is in the future and not has been happening for over 2000 yrs.?!
 

bbyrd009

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Even born again, in our human state we are still unworthy of God. The ONLY thing that makes us acceptable to God is the Blood of Christ covering us. That is all God needs to see. If he doesn't see that, then no matter how good we may have been, we will still be on our way to hell.
An awesome testimony for the Cult of Sol Invictus, but thank God there is no fear in love

And the signs are multiple, and plain/evident, too, and cannot be hidden; "born again" becomes a profession that one may make about themselves at will, regardless of their actions, hence to "even the born-again are unworthy," so now Elohim are "unworthy," so of course a Norse/Angle concept of "hell" is accepted that cannot be Quoted anywhere-except in English of course--not to mention that the Scripture which obviously suggests a completely diff picture must be ignored, as you are doing right now wadr, on and on.

God is horrified and not swayed by your belief in a human sacrifice to appease Him, rather than in obeying His Commandments, wadr, sorry.
I desire mercy, and not sacrifice
All go to the same place
You and your sons will be here with me
If you dig a pit for someone else, you end up in it yourself
Daughters of Jerusalem, do not find love until you are ready
 
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bbyrd009

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Even born again, in our human state we are
The ONLY thing that makes us acceptable to God is
That is all God needs.
If he doesn't see that, then no matter how good we may have been, we will still be on our way to hell.
you are making awfully confident statements about things that you should be much less sure of imo, to say the least, and you might note um, all of the Scripture you cannot even acknowledge, maybe? Or something like that? Iow you are evincing and God forbid even forwarding/teaching concepts that you will not even examine with Scripture when invited? So wadr I will not reply, to you, except to the Scriptures now, specifically the ones you don't like ok, or those that you currently believe address them.
 

bbyrd009

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from a guy who calls himself "Enoch"
ok
pardon me if I missed an imo or something, but the parts you declined to Quote are not Koran either, ok.

If you believe that God needed Jesus to die to make you acceptable to Him it is bc you are still confused, still in the world, and still under the law, so help me God
More nonsense from you. Where do you come up with these foolish ideas?

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools (Rom 1:22)
you did name yourself Enoch, right
:D
 

Davy

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The fact that their are false Jews is a very "meat" topic, which goes into many things. Saying someone will not understand much of God's word because they do not understand one very mature Christian topic is a little too much trolling, we are to build each other up not just smash people down to make ourselves feel smart or right. Like Paul said, he has more works then anyone will ever have probably, but if it is not done in love then it is void. The early Church had one or two letters from one of the disciples and perhaps once in their life they would have one of the disciples visit them, they did not have the entire Bible or all the answers, but they still knew God and were Christians.

Our Lord Jesus explained the parable of the tares when His disciples asked Him. It's not difficult to read. So it's not like it was that hidden...

Matt 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, "Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;


39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV
 

Davy

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Yes, and we are to not judge another man’s servant. Point is, you are right I don’t know who these workers of iniquity are. God’s Word says you will know them by their fruit. And tells us the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit. Is anyone hopeless? That is all I meant. Whose to say someone will not see God and be as Paul...a testimony that glorifies God?

Please don't claim this subject is judging people, otherwise you are claiming our Lord Jesus Himself who taught it already has judged those men to condemnation in the lake of fire. He has not done so yet, and neither have I. So please learn the proper way to use that term judge.

Apparently you don't understand the parable of the tares of the field.

In real horticulture, a tare is a weed that looks just like wheat while growing. You can't tell the difference between it and the real wheat while growing. But at harvest time, fully grown, the tare grows a black looking bud making it distinguishable from wheat. Then the tares can be separated and thrown into the fire.

Our Lord Jesus was using that as an example for the devil's children that the devil sowed for this world, i.e, the devil's own elect. Those tares are different than someone who is sinning or doing evil that is in ignorance. Those are the crept in unawares of Jude 1 which were 'ordained' to the condemnation during this world of working against The Father and His Son. As Peter and Jude described them, they have a brute beast nature in them, ordained to work evil, vessels made to be destroyed. The revealing about them began in the Old Testament.

Those are in contrast to the unbelieving Jew like Saul before Christ converted him. Just as many Gentiles that held to Baal in past centuries does not mean they all were 'tares', likewise it is with unbelieving Jews, they are not all false Jews born of the Canaanites. Did you not know that king Herod himself was an Idumean, born of the seed of Esau and not Israel? He tried to murder baby Jesus by ordering all the firstborn killed of that time. That's an example of a tare that crept in, because he was known as a Jew, but that because God gave Israel to destroy the nation of Edom, and many of the Idumeans then crept into Judea and became religious Jews.

When our Lord Jesus came to die on the cross, He did offer His Salvation to all who would believe, but this matter of the creeping in did not change. And it's not just something that happened among the Jews throughout their history. It also happened among all the 12 tribes of Israel (see Judges 3). And the ten tribes would eventually make up a large portion of the western Christian nations.

This is why in Zechariah 14, the last verse reveals that after Christ's return when He begins literal reign over all nations on earth, then there will no more be the Canaanites in the house of God.
 

Davy

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What? I’m confused. We are to bless and not curse. Agree. Did we disagree and I missed it? Opposite of: Acts 23:11-14 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. [12] And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul. [13] And they were more than forty which had made this conspiracy. [14] And they came to the chief priests and elders, and said, We have bound ourselves under a great curse, that we will eat nothing until we have slain Paul.

You implied just revealing the 'tares' in the parable of the tares of the field is like cursing them. It is no such thing. Our Lord Jesus gave the explanation of that parable and told us the tares represent the children of the wicked one, the devil, and that he sowed them. If such a revelation hurts your ears, then it shows you're not meant to understand that parable of the tares.
 

Davy

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The goats on the left hand are immediately cast into the lake of fire vs. 14 only the Gentile sheep enter into the millennium and while many may not be saved they will be deemed worthy to enter into the millennial era because they passed the parameters of judgment vss. 35-40. The 144,000+ have already been set apart to enter the millennial era.

In Matthew 25, our Lord Jesus did not include His Revelation about His 1,000 years reign over the nations, which are those goats on the left hand. So it is error to skip His Revelation about the wicked in favor of just stopping at Matthew 25 short summary with their being thrown into the fire. Furthermore, as He showed Zechariah in Zechariah 14, He revealed the continued existence into His future millennial reign of those left of the nations that come up against Israel on the last day of this world. So those in His day hearing Matthew 25 would have already understood those goats don't immediately go into the lake of fire at His return on the day of the Lord.
 

Davy

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Revelation 18:22-24
[22] And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be , shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; [23] And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

-24] And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Luke 11:50-51
[50] That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; [51] From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Matthew 23:29-32
[29] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, [30] And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. [31] Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. [32] Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

The Babylon Harlot of Revelation is a "great city" as written at the end of Revelation 17.

It is pointing to the beast kingdom of Rev.13 being ruled over all nations and peoples from that "great city". It represents the Antichrist's future headquarters on earth.

Our Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul well warned us about that coming Antichrist. He is coming to Jerusalem to play Messiah (per Matt.24:23-26), which is what Paul warned with his sitting in the temple of God (a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem), and claiming to be God (per 2 Thessalonians 2).

Thus the Babylon Harlot, a "great city", will be Jerusalem in false worship again in the last days prior to Christ's return.