1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Reality of the Millennial Kingdom

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Trekson, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,604
    Likes Received:
    2,254
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    For real? How do we glaze right over the two commandments (Love God and neighbor) as if they are not even there and say He is Lord? So Paul only loved certain people? A select few of his flesh?

    How does Matthew 5:44-48 become void? “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

    John 14:15
    [15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    Romans 12:14
    [14] Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
     
    Trekson likes this.
  2. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    We won't need the earth. The earth will be for the living, not the immortal. Yes, we are new creatures but in the sense that we can begin each day anew, not that we have transformed into something different. All humans have an immortal spirit be they good or evil.
     
  3. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hi Davy, I think our difference lies in the often misconstrued belief that only sinners will be at the GWTJ. All human flesh that haven't known about or had the opportunity to hear about Christ will be judged at that time as well, also those good that died during the millennial era. The former will be judged by how they lived regarding the basic knowledge of good an evil that resides in all of us.
     
  4. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Then it's simply a matter of semantics. We are guilty and deserving of eternal death, perhaps it would be better worded if you said that, "Many false teachers claim that the church is responsible for the "act" of His crucifixion. The statement that His "blood" is upon all living souls believer or not is true.
     
  5. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Don't need a quote, The whole of scripture points to that reality.
     
  6. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,314
    Likes Received:
    784
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Hi Trekson. I don't have a lot of time at the moment to really get into a good, indepth debate (sadly!), but I'll try to find some time to squeeze in some comments!
    About this first paragraph....I have never said that the Millennium is not a "real" thing. I just think it's a current thing. Amillennialists believe the Millennium is a symbolic period of time where Christ is ruling in his Kingdom ("My Kingdom is not of this world - John 18:36", "he is seated far above all rule and authority and power and dominion - Eph 1:20). Yes, we believe that Satan is bound (Rev 20), very specifically against deceiving the nations for war against the saints, and that towards the very end of this Age that restriction will be lifted.
    But, we do see it as a very real thing. Is Christ not ruling right now? Did he not defeat sin, death and Satan on the cross and establish his Kingdom? This Kingdom may not be as exactly as you thought it would be, but I remind you, you would not be the first to be mistaken in that...the entire Jewish nation was mistaken in what they thought Messiah would establish in his first coming, and he had to tell them "my kingdom is NOT of this world". Where does that mean his Kingdom is? Where he is now seated perhaps? Where the bible tells us he is ruling above all powers? It may not fit into your slot of what this "Kingdom" should look like, but it's an entriely rational outcome from what Christ and scripture tells us.

    Well, as I've pointed out before to Enoch111, this hermeneutic fails. Dispensationalists say that's their rule that they follow...that they only look at something in Revelation as symbolic if that 'symbol' is then 'explained', but then they can't follow through. Is there a literal woman in the stars giving birth? No explination found in the text to give you a 'symbolic' out there, so there should be an actual woman, by Dispensational rule. Is there a sword coming out of Christ's mouth when he comes? No symbolic explination there, so by literal hermeneutic, there should be a sword. Dispensationalists automatically realise that so many of the symbols are actually symbols and interpret thusly. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying that one: it's against their own hermeneutic, and two: they ought to stop criticizing others for doing just that.
    The other thing I need to mention is this: Those of us who interpret Revelation 'symbolically' don't just pluck the symbols out of thin air so we can make them say whatever we want. While the explination of all the symbols may not be found in Revelation, most of them are, in fact, found throughout the bible, mostly in the OT. So, you'll find that we actually get our interpretation from there. So, while Dispensationalists wobble because of a broken hermeneutic causing them to snap back and forwards at odd times between literal and symbolic with no apparent rhyme or reason, those they critize are actually plumbing scripture for the meaning of the book.


    That's because we DON'T consider all of Revelation to be "one day of judgement". We consider Revelation to be a description of the time period between Christ's two advents. The book is recapitulative, it gives us several different view points of the same "play". Each time they get just a little more violent, just like birth pangs do, finally working up to the grand event itself.
    Just consider this, for a second, about all the judgements: when we look at the 4 horsemen, as we love to call them...thos things have been 'riding' throughout the world forever. War, conquest and unrest, famine, disease, death. It's the same list Christ gave in the Olivet Discourse of what would be the 'beginning of birth pangs'.
    But then after that, the judgements of the trumpets and bowls that fall upon the earth: in essence they are the same, bringing judgement down upon the earth in an 'anti-creation' type way, effecting land and the growing things upon it, seas, rivers and living things in them, then the sun and moon. Andthen at the end of each set of 7, we see Christ returning with 'earthquake, the sky darkening, hail' etc. Again, we see the description of this return in the Olivet Discourse.

    Anyway, that's just a incredibly brief summary of how we see it, and why we don't see all of it fitting into a single day!
     
  7. Mal'ak

    Mal'ak New Member

    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    10
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The fact that their are false Jews is a very "meat" topic, which goes into many things. Saying someone will not understand much of God's word because they do not understand one very mature Christian topic is a little too much trolling, we are to build each other up not just smash people down to make ourselves feel smart or right. Like Paul said, he has more works then anyone will ever have probably, but if it is not done in love then it is void. The early Church had one or two letters from one of the disciples and perhaps once in their life they would have one of the disciples visit them, they did not have the entire Bible or all the answers, but they still knew God and were Christians.
     
  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,541
    Likes Received:
    2,356
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    The Lord help us all if the Millennium is a *current thing*. Satan must be rolling on the floor laughing!
     
  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,541
    Likes Received:
    2,356
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    And I have clearly shown Naomi25 that all her arguments are false -- straw man arguments.
     
  10. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,314
    Likes Received:
    784
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    That depends remarkably on whether or not your definiton of the "Millennium" is built from what the scriptures say about that time period, of if it's built from a rather mistaken understanding of scripture and just assumptions.
    I've already pointed out that Rev 20 only specifies the Satan will be bound from 'deceiving the nations' during that period. You have not been able to show, biblically, otherwise.
    I've pointed out elsewhere that the bible speaks clearly of two ages: this age, and the age to come. This age is always things before the coming of Christ, and 'the age to come' are things eternal. This leaves no room for a Millennial age, and I've seen no biblical evidence put forward to suggest it.
    Any OT passages that have been put forward to support the 'future Millennial age' idea have either completely ignored the verses preceeding them that tell us outright that they are speaking of the new heavens and new earth, or it has been ignored how the NT takes and reinterprets many of the OT promises through Christ himself.
    Any way you look at it, it's easy for you to say "satan must be rolling on the floor", but I have yet to see you attempt to back that up with scripture rather than just rolling your eyes at me. You do realise that in such matters your opinion of me, and your opinion on the topic at hand fade into the background and scriptural evidence must take precedence?
     
  11. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,314
    Likes Received:
    784
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Shown how?!! With your disdain and dismissal? It must be that, and not biblical exegesis, because I haven't seen any of the latter!
    I'm quite happy to be shown wrong if indeed I am. But I won't be shown wrong by someone's claims and opinion alone. God's word must be front and centre or else it's just words on a page. Surely you must believe that as well? This is what confuses me the most with some people. Their insistance on being right about God's word, but their reluctance to use God's word to prove it!
     
    bbyrd009 likes this.
  12. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,391
    Likes Received:
    2,020
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    I have been a Christian for 40 years, have seen that statement countless times, but never once with a biblical text in support or confirmation.
     
  13. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
     
  14. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    20,318
    Likes Received:
    6,148
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    well, but His Will here is not the same, I don't think, as those who worked in the field for only an hour? They "hate" her but they "eat her flesh," etc, so imo "doing God's will" here should maybe be recognized as more like "reaping what they sow?"

    but I don't want to...tease you away from a valid point if you have one, either, which you still might.
    I have a pretty good idea why the guy, man, Matthew 20:10 Lexicon: "When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. (no ish anywhere, see), gets paid the same denarius as the one who worked all day, but I would just be reiterating a position anyway, namely that the parable reads completely differently--and also makes sense--when the Cult of Sol assumptions about it are removed, for instance none of these "workers" jobs is "to believe on him who sent them," the "rewards" so fervently hoped for by so many are surely misunderstood--not saying that there aren't any, but that they have surely misunderstood them, and etc..."11When they received it, they began to complain to the landowner" etc, so see, the kingdom is like this scenario in a certain way, yes, but this is I don't wanna say 'intentionally' but easily misleading imo.

    This is a parable about ppl who want to get paid, just like "those who eat her flesh" I guess, so as long as "God's Will" and "the kingdom of heaven" are seen to not be in view here, then i'd be interested to hear your point, but even in this understanding the two "hours" um, come to a different conclusion, let's say? or sure seem to?
     
  15. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    20,318
    Likes Received:
    6,148
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    strangely imo not by proving or trying to prove, but by witnesses I think? Me and perhaps another witnessing that your millennium now is valid, and even easily demonstratable in Scripture, etc.
     
  16. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    20,318
    Likes Received:
    6,148
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    but the spirit "goes back to God" wadr, and you and your sons will be here with me"
     
    Trekson likes this.
  17. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    20,318
    Likes Received:
    6,148
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    it certainly does, read with Two Eyes, I agree
     
  18. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,604
    Likes Received:
    2,254
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Of course it is just an opinion but the word tells us plainly (imo)God put in their hearts to fulfill His will...until the words of God be fulfilled. Revelation 17:16-17 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. [17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

    So is it not God’s will for them to consume her flesh, to burn her with fire, to hate her and make her desolate. ‘eat her flesh’ could be taken also as to consume her flesh (away), off of her until there is none left to cover her or to give. “Desolate”...

    Revelation 18:7
    [7] How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

    Does she see sorrow?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2019
  19. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    20,318
    Likes Received:
    6,148
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    I desire mercy, not sacrifice
    John 18:14
    Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jews that it would be better if one man died for the people.

    Under the law almost everything requires blood

    etc. It's everywhere, when you can see it imo
    wadr
     
  20. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    90
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    1 Thess. 5:23 - "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
    Within this context, the body G4983 is obvious, the spirit G4151 is the rational and immortal soul and the soul G5590 is our vitality, also explained as our "animal" sentience that feels physical events like pain, suffering, pleasure, not to be confused with emotions. These three things (spirit and soul and body) correspond exactly and respectively with H5315, H7307 and H2416. Our body is the home of the spirit and is "alive" in the sense of G5590.
     
Loading...