The Ten Commandments—What happened?

[mjrhealth]

Might I suggest the old covenant was never intended to exclude Gentiles? Therefore whatever provisions and conditions that were attached to the OC applied to Gentiles as much as Israel. The issue was Israel only seldom extended those privileges to Gentiles... They weren't offered the choice.

Oh where do you get all this nonsense from,

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Why would the Jews be jealous of foolish people who insist on,

Act_15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Is that your life to Tempt God if it where possible.

 

[Brakelite]

Oh where do you get all this nonsense from,

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Why would the Jews be jealous of foolish people who insist on,

Act_15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Is that your life to Tempt God if it where possible.

So you are saying the OC was meant to exclude Gentiles? It was strictly only for Jews?

 

[mjrhealth]

So you are saying the OC was meant to exclude Gentiles? It was strictly only for Jews?

I thought you where a studied person??

 

[Brakelite]

I thought you where a studied person??

Answer the question.

 

[mjrhealth]

Answer the question.

What has the old to do with us, cant you read, doesnt your religion have all the answers,

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Do you still prefer teh old??? Will you always strive with God

 

[Brakelite]

Marks said...

The new covenant was always intended to include the gentiles. That was a mystery which Paul revealed. But the Law was never given to the gentiles.

Much love!

And I didn't disagree.... But by way of conversation and broadening the discussion a little too get perspective, I responded...

Might I suggest the old covenant was never intended to exclude Gentiles? Therefore whatever provisions and conditions that were attached to the OC applied to Gentiles as much as Israel.

To which you replied in your usual knee jerk manner...

Oh where do you get all this nonsense from,

So I asked,

So you are saying the OC was meant to exclude Gentiles? It was strictly only for Jews?

And now you are running around in ever decreasing circles trying not to answer the question. Be careful or you'll run into yourself. I don't think what I said is all that controversial.
Were Gentiles excluded from the old covenant? Simple question.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The content of this thread so far virtually proves that the only commandment Christians object to today is the 4th.

The attitude behind objecting to the Fourth Commandment implies the total attitude towards God in Person ultimately. The Second Commandment, for instance, is trampled upon just like the Fourth is; and so the Third-- unbelievers in disobedience and the spirit of haughtiness and pride use the Name of the LORD in vain by calling the spirit in their depraved inner self the Holy Spirit of God. And so one could go on and show how, if one Commandment is despised, everyone is despised. The difference only is that the first Four Commandments are not recognised or admitted as being despised and abused and corrupted by a Church which has put ITSELF in the place of God and WORSHIPS MAN instead of God.

 

[mjrhealth]

Marks said...

And I didn't disagree.... But by way of conversation and broadening the discussion a little too get perspective, I responded...


To which you replied in your usual knee jerk manner...

So I asked,

And now you are running around in ever decreasing circles trying not to answer the question. Be careful or you'll run into yourself. I don't think what I said is all that controversial.
Were Gentiles excluded from the old covenant? Simple question.

I answered you dont like what it says, did you read it, It says, because you havnt tasted the new wine, do you know what thats is,

Remeber penetcost,

These men sound like they are drunk with new wine,

Do you remember what the bridegroom said when he tasted the water that Jesus had changed, you saved teh best wine till last. So why is it you prefer the old wine, the law to teh new wine teh spirit, because teh law is all about the flesh the law is all about you earning you righteousness, the new wine the Spirit is all about Grace and His righteousness, which no man can earn. You are denying His righteousness for your own,

As I said, how long will you strive with God.

 

[Giuliano]

When I was growing up in mid-20th century America, the ten commandments were the standard of morality for Christians. My Southern Baptist grandmother often asked me to mow her lawn (about an acre). But she would never allow me to do it on Sunday.

Lately, I'm hearing more and more about a doctrine which states that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross and that the Holy Spirit has replaced them. I recently asked my very aged father about this and he said that he'd never even heard of such a thing.

What happened?

I don't know about the expression "Ten Commandments." That is the result of a poor translation in the KJV, and the term took off and has pervaded much of Christianity. The text says, "the ten sayings." There are many other commandments, not just ten. The Jews give the number at 613. The Orthodox Church correctly refers to these ten sayings as the Decalogue -- or ten words.

Great confusion exists, I think, since most Christians cannot view the Old Testament without imposing the beliefs of their churches. Can we discuss the matter first from the perspective of the people who received these ten sayings?

Israel was brought out of Egypt and led to Mount Sinai. God had not commanded them to do anything. He had not created a Levitical priesthood. God spoke to them all at Sinai. Moses understood everything perfectly since his mind was "unassuming." He was humble, he did not think he knew things when he didn't, so his mind was open and could duplicate the concepts when God spoke. Joshua came in second. Remember, he was further up the mountain than anyone else, and his understanding was better. The seventy were higher than most others, and it was these seventy which acted as Sanhedrin later since their understanding was better than most. The rest of the people contained "priests" -- and mind you, there was no Levitical priesthood! Who were the priests? At the time, the head of each family acted as a priest. I'll return to this matter later.

When Israel heard the Voice of God, they could not discern much of the intelligence in it. It shook them up. They heard a threatening sound like a trumpet which got louder and louder. There were ten things they all could understand: The ten sayings. The rest was gibberish to most of them. Indeed many of those laws look like gibberish to us today -- because we look at them wrong -- we are hung up on the letter and not the spirit -- we fail to discern how all those 613 are somehow about loving God or loving our fellow man. We Christians are as dim-witted as the people of Israel. We can see the love in some of them but not in others; yet Jesus told us the law was all about love.

Israel could not understand the Torah Or -- the Law of Light. They were then given the written Torah, using the language of men. Jews to this day will tell you they do not understand the Torah. They study it in order to have it written on their hearts -- to find the love in it. They also say when Messiah comes, everyone will understand the Torah perfectly -- and the "letter" will fade away.

Then when Moses came down from the mountain, he found Israel practicing idolatry in the matter of the Golden Calf. Moses asked who was on the LORD's side. The tribe of Levi was. That is how the priesthood got transferred from the heads of households to the Levites. The first born male still "owed" something to God for being the first born; but since they were disbarred from performing it, they could square matters by paying money (Numbers 3).

Not only do the "ten words" stand, I say every Word that came from the mouth of God still stands, and man shall live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Now jumping forward to the time of Jesus, we find him telling people to obey whatever the Sanhedrin commanded. Why? The Sanhedrin was composed of men who had the time, opportunity and disposition to study the Torah. Most people could not. Most people could not be expected to understand what all the written commandments meant. Some things were cultural. To understand some laws, you need to understand the cultural context of the time they were given. Times change, culture changes; and thus the Torah Or (the real Law, the Law of Light) needed to be interpreted for each generation. That was what the Sanhedrin did.

For example, take the matter of the death penalty in the time of Jesus. The Jews had negotiated with the invading Romans and agreed to give up using the death penalty. Only Rome was allowed to put someone to death. That was fine by Mosaic Law -- the Sanhedrin was within its rights to say that and to forbid Jews from executing anyone. Some will say, "But the law of Moses says to put some people to death." So it does, but the purpose of the Law was to preserve life. The Roman army was about to massacre the Jewish people. For the Sanhedrin to insist on retaining the right to execute people would have meant the death of countless thousands of innocent people. Thus they suspended that part of the Mosaic code.

When people brought that woman accused of adultery to Jesus, they were tempting him to disobey the Sanhedrin. They were also tempting him to say she was worthy of being put to death without two good witnesses. And where was her partner in crime? So they were tempting Jesus not only to disobey a ruling of the Sanhedrin but also the law of the Romans. Then they could have turned him over to Rome who would have executed him.

Do not think then that Jesus was despising the Law of Moses. He was obeying in spirit. Let us not confuse the "letter" or "literal" with the spirit of the law.

 

[justbyfaith]

<<Resurrection Sunday>> is the most horrific blasphemy, the very essence of Antichrist HERESY !

<<Paul also taught us the spirit of the law when he informed us that "every day is the sabbath'.>> Blasphemy! YOU QUOTE PAUL!

<The Holy Spirit/law written upon our heart guides us to keep the spirit of the law. The letter of the law is for the immature>> Another BLASPHEMY!

I find this interesting. How are these things blasphemy?

"EVERY prophecy", that is, every WORD OF SCRIPTURE, "is Holy Spirit OF GOD breathed". <<the spirit of the law>> and <<the letter of the law>> is identical and the very same WORD OF GOD. But YOU put them in opposition and contradiction and CONFUSION OF THE DEVIL.

Actually, Paul wrote to us that we are no longer bound by the letter but that we will be obedient to the spirit of the law because we have the Holy Spirit (Romans 7:6). So, there is a difference.

 

[marks]

Would there not be an intrinsic moral value to simply obeying God because you recognise His authority over you?

Might I suggest the old covenant was never intended to exclude Gentiles? Therefore whatever provisions and conditions that were attached to the OC applied to Gentiles as much as Israel. The issue was Israel only seldom extended those privileges to Gentiles... They weren't offered the choice.

Only Israel was standing there at Mount Horeb, Only Israel covenanted with God to keep His Law. God only offered this covenant to Israel, and to the point of identifying the 12 tribes individually, and that the Promised Land was to be divided between them.

The only gentiles who were included were those who were "naturalized" into Israel. Those who lived among them, and lived as them.

Other than this, is there another way gentiles were or are included in the Old Covenant?

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Only Israel was standing there at Mount Horeb, Only Israel covenanted with God to keep His Law. God only offered this covenant to Israel, and to the point of identifying the 12 tribes individually, and that the Promised Land was to be divided between them.

The only gentiles who were included were those who were "naturalized" into Israel. Those who lived among them, and lived as them.

Other than this, is there another way gentiles were or are included in the Old Covenant?

Much love!

If you are a recipient of the New Covenant, then the law is written on your heart and in your mind (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4).

That Gentiles will be judged by the law is evident in Romans 3:19-20. All the world will be counted guilty before God because of the law.

 

[BarneyFife]

The attitude behind objecting to the Fourth Commandment implies the total attitude towards God in Person ultimately. The Second Commandment, for instance, is trampled upon just like the Fourth is; and so the Third-- unbelievers in disobedience and the spirit of haughtiness and pride use the Name of the LORD in vain by calling the spirit in their depraved inner self the Holy Spirit of God. And so one could go on and show how, if one Commandment is despised, everyone is despised. The difference only is that the first Four Commandments are not recognised or admitted as being despised and abused and corrupted by a Church which has put ITSELF in the place of God and WORSHIPS MAN instead of God.

Tough talk, but I can't say that I disagree, at least, in principle. I don't think I'd go so far as to say that all who are mistaken on the subject are God-haters, but is disheartening to see how the post-modern church has largely become something resembling a spiritual "Summer Of Love." Obviously, the levels of knowledge and conviction vary among us all. And the worst thing of all is the cry of "judging" and "legalism" that always is heard at the mere mention of a commandment, especially if that commandment is the 4th. If you created a thread called "Lying is against God's law" all you would get would be AMENs. No one would be quoting "We are not under the law, but under grace." Can you imagine what Christ might have said if He had elucidated on lying the way He did on murder and adultery?

 

[marks]

If you are a recipient of the New Covenant, then the law is written on your heart and in your mind (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4).

None of these passages say this thing which you say, that gentiles "have the Old Covenant written onto their hearts to keep all it's statutes and precepts", or however you would word it.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord.


10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people:

This is God's covenant with Israel and the house of Judah. This is not to gentiles.

15 And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; [then saith he,] 17 And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

From the OT . . .

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Here again this is directed specifically towards Israel.

7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:

This says that the flesh cannot obey God's law. This does not teach God has written the OT Law on our hearts.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

If you then equate "the righteousnes of the law being fulfilled in us" to mean that we are written upon with the covenant made at Sinai between God and Israel, then yes, I'd agree that's what this is saying.

I think what it means is that the righteousness that the Law points to is found in us, in Christ.

Much love!

 

[Giuliano]

Only Israel was standing there at Mount Horeb, Only Israel covenanted with God to keep His Law. God only offered this covenant to Israel, and to the point of identifying the 12 tribes individually, and that the Promised Land was to be divided between them.

The only gentiles who were included were those who were "naturalized" into Israel. Those who lived among them, and lived as them.

Other than this, is there another way gentiles were or are included in the Old Covenant?

Much love!

Let me give an answer to this. God is not a dictator. Israel agreed to the covenant. Both sides in a covenant have obligations and rights. Thus it was binding on them in a way not binding on people who didn't agree to it. If Israel transgressed the terms, God had the right to interfere with them in a way He didn't with Gentiles who still had free will in the matter. Once you say, "Yes," to God, you made your choice, and He has the right to insist you keep your end of the bargain -- the way a husband had the right to make demands on a wife.

Seventy souls went down into Egypt; and a few generations later, they numbered (counting only the adult males) 600,000.

Genesis 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.​

With 12 sons to begin with, how many sons would each need to have in three more generations in order to get to 600,000? Each man would have needed to have over 30 sons for several generations. It seems clear to me there was mixing with other people in Egypt.

We are told there were Gentiles with them, who had left Egypt with them. Indeed Pharaoh's daughter Bithiah left with them. Those Gentiles got added to Israel when they agreed to take the vow at Sinai. It is even more complicated: There were souls at Sinai not in bodies who took the vow -- they took the vow and would be born later into Israel.

Deuteronomy 29:10 Ye stand this day all of you before the Lord your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the Lord thy God, and into his oath, which the Lord thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the Lord our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
​

The New Covenant also means the person who agrees to it gives God authority. Violating the terms of the new covenant is more severe. If the person genuinely made covenant with Jesus (and perhaps not all have who think they have), he expects them to obey God's Eternal Law, the Law of Light, which Israel could not understand. Gentiles should not need the written laws of Moses; but if they break the Eternal Law of Love, they can be chastised severely.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[marks]

It is even more complicated: There were souls at Sinai not in bodies who took the vow -- they took the vow and would be born later into Israel.

Pre-existant souls affirmed this covenant alongside the incarnate people, I've never heard this idea before.

Regarding the 4th generations, remember that the Bible uses 'generation' a few different ways. There is more to the passage . . .

12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, a horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be sojourners in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 and also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 But thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet full.

We're told that in the 4th generation they would come back again, but it also says that they would be afflicted there for 400 years.

They were not afflicted at first, it was only after Joseph was dead, and the Pharaoh was dead, and they were forgotten about. Then came 400 years of slavery. If you figure Joseph's grandchildren those who begin to be afflicted, you've got 2 generations from the 70 who went to Egypt, then maybe 20 childbearing generations during the slavery, that is, based on the generation who perished in the desert, those over 20 years old.

Then Moses is born. And when Moses is 80 years old, in the fourth generation of 20 years, God led them from Egypt.

So starting with 70, and approx. 26 generations, how many would that be?

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

This is God's covenant with Israel and the house of Judah. This is not to gentiles.

The New Covenant is not for Gentiles?

I beg to differ:

Eph 3:6, That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Let me point this out:

Heb 8:8, For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9, Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

 

[marks]

The New Covenant is not for Gentiles?

I beg to differ:

Eph 3:6, That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Let me point this out:

Heb 8:8, For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9, Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The passages you are quoting address Israel, that's what I'm saying.

"This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days." This is addressed to Israel, and you are applying it to Gentiles. Is there another passage?

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

This occurred in Jerusalem, the many thousands of believing Jews were ALL zealous to keep the Law. But what got Paul in trouble? It was trying to "prove" to these Christian Jews that he, Paul, the Apostle to the gentiles, still taught keeping the Law. Because it had become known that he didn't. He adamantly opposed any thought of justification or maturity by keeping the Law. "You have fallen from grace!"

And of course James and Peter and the others had affirmed in Acts 15 that the Law of Moses was not being imposed over the gentiles.

The Jews in Jerusalem who became Christians were zealous to keep the Law, while the gentiles were not considered under the Law.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Gentiles are indeed recipients of the New Covenant, and there is no disputing this.

Paul wrote that the righteousness of the law would be fulfilled in those who walk according to the Spirit rather than the flesh (Romans 8:4).

He also wrote that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God (Romans 8:7).

Is it so far-fetched that the New Covenant would be applied to Gentiles?

For it is the New Covenant wherein the Lord provides that the law will be written on the hearts and in the minds of New Covenant believers.

That Gentiles are a part of the New Covenant is evident in Ephesians 3:6.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is a righteousness of God apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21).

This is because when we receive the Holy Ghost through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone (Galatians 3:14), we will begin to bear the fruit of the Spirit; against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23).

So then, there is no law that we will violate if we are bearing the fruit of the Spirit.

But this righteousness does not come through attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts (Galatians 2:16).

It comes through believing in Jesus and becoming a new creature in Him (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)).