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The testimony of the Waldenses

Discussion in 'Testimonial Forum' started by brakelite, May 22, 2019.

  1. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    The following is am except from J A Wylie's comprehensive and enlightening historical account of the Waldensian Christians of Europe. If you do not know of these people, or your understanding of them is limited to a few random negative commentaries, then read on, and perhaps you may, hopefully you will, and read the whole book, and awaken to some historical realities that could just change your life, and your appreciation of the power and purposes of God for mankind.

    THE Waldenes stand apart and alone in the Christian world. Their place on the sufrace of Europe is unique; their position in history is not less unique; and the end. appointed them to fulfill is one which has been assigned to them alone, no other people being permitted to share it with them. The Waldenses bear a twofold testimony. Like the snow-clad peaks amid which their dwelling is placed, which look down upon the plains of Italy on the one side, and the provinces of France on the other, this people stand equally related to primitive ages and modern times, and give by no means equivocal testimony respecting both Rome and the Reformation. If they are old, then Rome is new; if they are pure, then Rome is corrupt; and if they have retained the faith of the apostles, it follows incontestably that Rome has departed from it. That the Waldensian faith and worship existed many centuries before Protestantism arose is undeniable; the proofs and monuments of this fact lie scattered over all the histories and all the lands of mediaeval Europe; but the antiquity of the Waldenses is the antiquity of Protestantism. The Church of the Reformation was in the loins of the Waldensian Church ages before the birth of Luther; her first cradle was placed amid those terrors and sublimities, those ice-clad peaks and great bulwarks of rock. In their dispersions over so many lands–over France, the Low Countries, Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Moravia, England, Calabria, Naplesthe Waldenses sowed the seeds of that great spiritual revival which, beginning in the days of Wicliffe, and advancing in the times of Luther and Calvin, awaits its full consummation in the ages to come.
     
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  2. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    They definitely were light bearers that stood firm.
     
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  3. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    A great many groups and movements that sought and found the Christian experience of God existed before what is now called the "reformation" took place. The Cathars or Albigensians were such a group that the RC's called "the great heresy"...because they were so successful in certain regions of Europe.

    Revivals of holiness and truth have sprung up from time to time. But the truth is always finally overcome and disappears...since everyone hates the truth.

    But you can't keep the truth at bay forever.

    What bothers me is that so few understand how the history of the church can be sifted in order to build a better framework for the church. But that is human nature. Human nature is opposed to the things of God...and man likes having the last say in things...and religion is no exception.
     
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  4. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    What I understand is that in many [or most?] the new groups of believers there was a man or small group of men who were really seeking and led by God. They started well, but perhaps the main problem for most of them was that once the initial leadership passed away [died] the people remaining tended to establish the basics in concrete instead of growing. The end result for us we see around us in the multitude of church groups claiming to have the best or the most correctly explanation of God's truth. But.. growth for the most part is really lacking... and I am NOT speaking of the number of bodies who belong or attend regularly.

    "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

    The only absolute is God Himself and who has attained to the absoluteness in their faith or their knowledge or their anything that is worthwhile.

    Neither did the Catholics nor the Waldensians have it all together in God. But probably the latter did better if for no other reason than because of adversity and their reasons for being apart was because what they wanted to do according to what they believed. There was an established organization for "Christianity" which I do not believe would allow those people [the Waldensians] to live in peace unless they bent in all things the way that that organization wanted them to bend. Politics would one good word to put to it. It was not only a Catholic thing. It was a man thing. The problems in Catholicism [the organization] were certainly seen first in other much older worlds of men [as per the OT without doubt]. Jesus did not change the hearts of all men... because most men effectively refused to be changed... even though Jesus made real change toward God a possibility.
     
  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Using your line of thinking, how do you support the Pentecostal movement since it did not exist until around 1900?
     
  6. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    That movement unfortunately like probably every other movement that started with God eventually splintered into different groups because fallible men were involved and allowed their own carnal desires to lead them or divert them when they should not have. This kind of thing has been happening since men began living outside of Eden right up to the present date. God recognizes better than we do that men will do this kind of thing. God all knowing and always fair, chastises when appropriate and helps when someone asks not amiss and corrects when it is allowed. Pointing out which men or groups of men have made mistakes will not fix those mistakes nor in most cases prevent others from falling into the same or similar seemingly bottomless pits.

    Don't only name and point fingers at the Pentecostals, but while you at it... to be fair name and point fingers at all of those who have erred. However... if it really edifies no one why should we condemn anything that God has not already condemned?

    Why not gather instead all of the good we are able to see in all of those same groups? Do you presume that none of them ever had a good thought or took a good action according to God?
     
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  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    If you wish me to be more direct, a lot of colts have come into existence in the last 500 years in the US.

    Many of the utopian societies are gone.

    Shakers are down to one small community.

    If you wish me to be more direct, a lot of colts have come into existence in the last 500 years in the US.

    Many of the utopian societies are gone.

    Shakers are down to one small community.

    If you wish me to be more direct, a lot of colts have come into existence in the last 500 years in the US.

    Many of the utopian societies are gone.

    Dancers, Laughers and one's along that line are gone.

    Jehovah witnesses are still around.

    So are Mormons.

    Pentecostals have grown into many configurationsFrom there beginning around 1900.A religion whose origins are in the occult and spiritism.

    The common thing with all of these is they never existed in history before.

    You cannot gather good From cults. That is very humanistic thinking.
     
  8. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    You don't gather good or evil from groups or churches or even the ones you would call cults. It is the individuals that put out good or evil. This why the scripture reads that God looks at the heart... and groups really do not have a heart!

    "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." Matt 12:35
     
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  9. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Jeremiah 17:9 New International Version (NIV)
    9 The heart is deceitful above all things
    and beyond cure.
    Who can understand it?

    Matthew 12:35 New International Version (NIV)
    35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.
     
  10. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    The NIV version of Matthew said essentially the same thing as the KJV. The verse from Jeremiah is speaking of the carnal heart of a man following his own ways rather than God's. I don't disagree with what they say...
     
  11. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    It does not say, heart or following his own way. It says the heart.

    In the other verse does not even reference heart.

    God does not judge our heart. He judges our faith and adherence to his revelation.
     
  12. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes:o_O
     
  13. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Does not change the facts.
     
  14. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    You did not communicate anything!
     
  15. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    I think you guys need to read some more from Wylie's book. The Waldenses were not some fly-by-night cult that came and then disappeared into the ether. They were light years ahead of any group you could name today for courage, patience under persecution, and commitment to the gospel. No one is in their league. To even consider them a cult, or to think they were some minor blip on the religious landscape like some passing stalk of grass dishonours not just them, but the God who led and protected them over so many centuries. It was in fact the reformation itself that to a great extent became their undoing. At last, they cried, someone who is thinking the way we do...but they did not recognise that those who were just emerging from the Papal darkness brought with them so much Papal baggage. Yet they were genuine heroes of post apostolic faith, which is why Rome could not tolerate them, particularly as they lived on their doorstep. Today, the non-Catholic world is very much tolerated by Rome. Not because Rome has softened her stance against heresy, but because the vast majority of non-Catholic Christians have now compromised the heritage left them by such as the Waldensians, even now repudiating what truths were fought for by the reformers, even to the extent where anyone wanting to cleave to Bible truth has to fight the reformation all over again. Only this time it isn't just Catholics who oppose Bible truth...so called Protestants and non-denominational folk do also.
    And modern Christendom "celebrates" ecumenism and thinks it is in the middle of revival because of a few random nonsense charismatic/Pentecostal emotional displays of fanaticism and excitement. They go to a Hillsong concert and "feel-good" for an hour or so and think it God's blessing then go back to their normal selfish pleasure seeking lives until the next "high". And on top of that complain of being persecuted because their brand of religion is criticised. SMH.
     
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  16. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    I most assuredly did.

    I proved God does not judge by the heart.
     
  17. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    I have the Bible, why would I study a denomination?

    There were large groups of people Rome did not tolerate.

    The man from the Seventh-day Adventist cult speaks.
     
  18. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    If you were speaking as someone informed CI, you could be a good mouthpiece. However, your lack of information on many issues addressed in these forums and your willingness to shoot your mouth off leaves the reader, at least this one shaking my head.
     
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  19. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Coming from a man with nothing meaningful to contribute.
     
  20. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Says the SDA
     
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