bbyrd009
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The thief on the cross !?
- Thread starter twinc
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bbyrd009
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1Samuel28:19
The LORD will also hand Israel over to the Philistines along with you. Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me, and the LORD will hand Israel's army over to the Philistines."
(the now dead Samuel--one "accepted by God"--being channelled through the Witch of Endor, to Saul--"rejected by God")
don't you know tomorrow never comes - except for those who wait for the Lord - for sure this will happen exactly as stated when tomorrow comes - twinc
Marymog
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twinc,
There are 7.5 billion souls on this earth. Do you honestly believe they have all heard of Jesus?
What about these souls: Uncontacted peoples - Wikipedia
IHS....Mary
those who have not will[Jn 10:16] - btw how is the great mystery to mostly those who insist on throwing out the baby with the bath water - it is no mystery to me and some others who correctly interpret scriptures and what the Church proclaims - twinc
Marymog
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Hi twinc,
Your theory is that AFTER they (those who never heard of Jesus) die they will be told of Jesus? After death they will be given a chance to repent and believe?
You and who else correctly interprets Scripture?
IHS...Mary
you do not even interpret me correctly so what about scriptures even pleading inspiration via the Holy Spirit does not seem to help - death is only for Christians - so non Christians after a period in Limbo will be born again as little Christian/Catholic children who will simply simply believe as required - twinc
what matters is the correct interpretation = but scripture says a day is as a thousand years in the eyes of the Lord, so lets see it thru His eyes not yours - twinc
I am seeing it through his eyes. The Holy Spirit dwells in me remember, the very Spirit of the living God...
I am seeing it through his eyes. The Holy Spirit dwells in me remember, the very Spirit of the living God...
how do you make that out as in you but not in the first Pope [1 Peter 3:18] or in me - twinc
Here's a good example of the word "Today" being used to describe something that has been made available to all but not accepted by all because of unbelief, evidenced by disobedience.
Hebrews 4
Therefore, while the promise of entering His rest still remains and is freely offered today, let us fear, in case any one of you may seem to come short of reaching it or think he has come too late. 2 For indeed we have had the good news [of salvation] preached to us, just as the Israelites also [when the good news of the promised land came to them]; but the message they heard did not benefit them, because it was not united with faith [in God] by those who heard. 3 For we who believe [that is, we who personally trust and confidently rely on God] enter that rest [so we have His inner peace now because we are confident in our salvation, and assured of His power], just as He has said,
“As I swore [an oath] in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”
[this He said] although His works were [a]completed from the foundation of the world [waiting for all who would believe].
4 For somewhere [in Scripture] He has said this about the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this, “They shall not enter My rest.” 6 Therefore, since the promise remains for some to enter His rest, and those who formerly had the good news preached to them failed to [grasp it and did not] enter because of [their unbelief evidenced by] disobedience, 7 He again sets a definite day, [a new] “Today,” [providing another opportunity to enter that rest by] saying through David after so long a time, just as has been said before [in the words already quoted],
“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 [This mention of a rest was not a reference to their entering into Canaan.] For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak about another day [of opportunity] after that. 9 So there remains a [full and complete] Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has once entered His rest has also rested from [the weariness and pain of] his [human] labors, just as God rested from [those labors uniquely] His own. 11 Let us therefore make every effort to enter that rest [of God, to know and experience it for ourselves], so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience [as those who died in the wilderness]. 12 For the word of God is living and active and full of power [making it operative, energizing, and effective]. It is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating as far as the division of the [c]soul and spirit [the completeness of a person], and of both joints and marrow [the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and judging the very thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And not a creature exists that is concealed from His sight, but all things are open and exposed, and revealed to the eyes of Him with whom we have to give account.
The thief on the cross believed Jesus and therefore, had the opportunity to enter the kingdom as a believer by grace through faith in Jesus. For there is no other way that a man can be saved and he was talking to the very one that can redeem his very soul...Shalom
Hebrews 4
Therefore, while the promise of entering His rest still remains and is freely offered today, let us fear, in case any one of you may seem to come short of reaching it or think he has come too late. 2 For indeed we have had the good news [of salvation] preached to us, just as the Israelites also [when the good news of the promised land came to them]; but the message they heard did not benefit them, because it was not united with faith [in God] by those who heard. 3 For we who believe [that is, we who personally trust and confidently rely on God] enter that rest [so we have His inner peace now because we are confident in our salvation, and assured of His power], just as He has said,
“As I swore [an oath] in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”
[this He said] although His works were [a]completed from the foundation of the world [waiting for all who would believe].
4 For somewhere [in Scripture] He has said this about the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this, “They shall not enter My rest.” 6 Therefore, since the promise remains for some to enter His rest, and those who formerly had the good news preached to them failed to [grasp it and did not] enter because of [their unbelief evidenced by] disobedience, 7 He again sets a definite day, [a new] “Today,” [providing another opportunity to enter that rest by] saying through David after so long a time, just as has been said before [in the words already quoted],
“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 [This mention of a rest was not a reference to their entering into Canaan.] For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak about another day [of opportunity] after that. 9 So there remains a [full and complete] Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has once entered His rest has also rested from [the weariness and pain of] his [human] labors, just as God rested from [those labors uniquely] His own. 11 Let us therefore make every effort to enter that rest [of God, to know and experience it for ourselves], so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience [as those who died in the wilderness]. 12 For the word of God is living and active and full of power [making it operative, energizing, and effective]. It is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating as far as the division of the [c]soul and spirit [the completeness of a person], and of both joints and marrow [the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and judging the very thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And not a creature exists that is concealed from His sight, but all things are open and exposed, and revealed to the eyes of Him with whom we have to give account.
The thief on the cross believed Jesus and therefore, had the opportunity to enter the kingdom as a believer by grace through faith in Jesus. For there is no other way that a man can be saved and he was talking to the very one that can redeem his very soul...Shalom
Copperhead
Well-Known Member
Have you not read the book of Romans? It answers that early on in the book. Folks are judged based on the revelation of God they are given. And the creation itself declares God.
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Copperhead
Well-Known Member
And did you know why Yeshua stated "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."? It is relatively simple if one knows the Torah (Law).
In the Torah, if one is guilty of murder, then the next of kin can execute vengeance on the murderer. Not like the State executes judgement we have today.
But if one is found guilty of manslaughter, or unintentional death of someone else, that person can flee to a city of refuge and remain there until the death of the High Priest and is protected from the next of kin's vengeance.
Yeshua, by stating "they know not what they do" is declaring that all of us, including the ones who nailed Him, are not guilty of murder, but of manslaughter. So our only protection from the next of kin (YHVH the Father) is to flee to a city of refuge (the Messiah) who is our High Priest who never dies, and we are protected from the wrath of the Father. If we don't flee to our city of refuge (Messiah) for protection, then the Father will execute vengeance on us.
Every detail of the Torah speaks of the Messiah!
The thief on the cross fled to the city of refuge by accepting the Yeshua was the true Messiah and put his faith in Him. That is why Yeshua said the thief would be with Him in paradise. A faith like that of Abraham saved him.
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Sorry, but paradise is NOT heaven. It's important to reconcile Jewish and Christian understanding, and it can't be done with "Bible alone" theology. "Paradise of the Fathers" is Jewish oral tradition which is where the Thief on the Cross went that day.
I don't mean to stir up controversy here, but facts are facts. The Jews believed in purgatory but they did not use that word.
Compare Luke 16:19-31 with Luke 23:43. In Luke 16, Jesus speaks of the poor man Lazarus being taken up to the "Bosom of Abraham." However, despite what is commonly presumed, this cannot be Heaven, since souls did not enter Heaven at this time (not even according to Jewish theology), but awaited Jesus' death, Resurrection, and Ascension for this. Until the Lord opens the gates of Heaven ("I go to prepare a place for you"), it was not possible for humanity to enter into the Presence of God. Rather, the God-man needed to do this first in order to make a place for humanity before the Throne of the Father. Rather, this "Bosom of Abraham" in Luke 16 is what Jewish oral tradition refers to as "the Paradise of the Fathers" --the Garden of Eden, which was withdrawn from the earth.
Now, ... To show that this is the case, one only need to look at Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the Good Thief, " **This day** you will be with me **in Paradise.** " Notice, here, that Jesus does not say, " ...in Heaven." ...And this is because, as we all know, Jesus did NOT go to Heaven THAT DAY. Rather, Jesus spent 3 days in the tomb! ...Not rising until Sunday morning. ...And we know from Scripture (e.g. 1 Peter 3:19 & 4:6) that Jesus' soul spent **that day** AMONG THE DEAD in Sheol. ...And, as John 20:17 hammers home for us, EVEN ON SUNDAY MORNING, Jesus had STILL "not yet ascended to the Father." So, the "Paradise" Jesus is talking about in Luke 23 is **absolutely** not Heaven itself. Rather, He is talking about the Paradise of the Fathers, and he is promising the Good Thief (a justly-condemned Jewish criminal) that, far from being condemned to Gehenna, he will be with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the righteous patriarchs (models of Judaism) in the Paradise of the Fathers. And this would have been enough for this Jew to die in peace --saved from hell, yet not fully-sanctified so as to immediately enter Heaven.
I don't mean to stir up controversy here, but facts are facts. The Jews believed in purgatory but they did not use that word.
Compare Luke 16:19-31 with Luke 23:43. In Luke 16, Jesus speaks of the poor man Lazarus being taken up to the "Bosom of Abraham." However, despite what is commonly presumed, this cannot be Heaven, since souls did not enter Heaven at this time (not even according to Jewish theology), but awaited Jesus' death, Resurrection, and Ascension for this. Until the Lord opens the gates of Heaven ("I go to prepare a place for you"), it was not possible for humanity to enter into the Presence of God. Rather, the God-man needed to do this first in order to make a place for humanity before the Throne of the Father. Rather, this "Bosom of Abraham" in Luke 16 is what Jewish oral tradition refers to as "the Paradise of the Fathers" --the Garden of Eden, which was withdrawn from the earth.
Now, ... To show that this is the case, one only need to look at Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the Good Thief, " **This day** you will be with me **in Paradise.** " Notice, here, that Jesus does not say, " ...in Heaven." ...And this is because, as we all know, Jesus did NOT go to Heaven THAT DAY. Rather, Jesus spent 3 days in the tomb! ...Not rising until Sunday morning. ...And we know from Scripture (e.g. 1 Peter 3:19 & 4:6) that Jesus' soul spent **that day** AMONG THE DEAD in Sheol. ...And, as John 20:17 hammers home for us, EVEN ON SUNDAY MORNING, Jesus had STILL "not yet ascended to the Father." So, the "Paradise" Jesus is talking about in Luke 23 is **absolutely** not Heaven itself. Rather, He is talking about the Paradise of the Fathers, and he is promising the Good Thief (a justly-condemned Jewish criminal) that, far from being condemned to Gehenna, he will be with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the righteous patriarchs (models of Judaism) in the Paradise of the Fathers. And this would have been enough for this Jew to die in peace --saved from hell, yet not fully-sanctified so as to immediately enter Heaven.
Copperhead
Well-Known Member
That would be mostly correct. Paradise at that time was what was called "Abraham's bosom". It was a location that the righteous went and were comforted and taken care of until the future resurrection. The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus details that. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was some sort of purgatory thing. Those that went to the condemned side, that remains the same even today. That part will be cast into the outer darkness in the future along with Satan, False Messiah, etc.
Oh sorry twinc, I have the tendency of switching off when folks are being deliberately rude to me...
