The thief on the cross !?

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DPMartin

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Really? This adds to a discussion and comes from a "christian"?


what everybody here cares about their honest opinion, don't they, you care about your honest opinion don't you? your honest opinion is ok but someone else's you might find offensive isn't correct?

don't you know that's how the censorship of Christianity is being accomplished in the free speech world?
 
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Triumph1300

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Quote:
DPMartin said:
you really are a nut job, you know this don't you? are you off your med's or something?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your post has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
You insult people because you disagree with them.
It means you have no decent response and you are lost for words.

You are defeated.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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what matters is the correct interpretation = but scripture says a day is as a thousand years in the eyes of the Lord, so lets see it thru His eyes not yours - twinc

We must remember that the way most people look at that word "today" in that scripture are by a man or group of men interpretation because the original inspired scripture had no punuation. Just because men interpret that scripture by their punuation doesn't mean that scripture agrees with that interpretation.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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how did he make it to Paradise - notice how scripture has been misinterpreted here to try and justify the wrong interpretations of other scriptures - twinc

Have you ever thought that the thief isn't in Paradise yet, but still is dead awaiting a ressurrection of the righteous and unrighteous
 

twinc

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Have you ever thought that the thief isn't in Paradise yet, but still is dead awaiting a ressurrection of the righteous and unrighteous


to enter heaven the thief must be born again of water and spirit[JN 3:5] - which he probably has been and is in heaven imho - twinc
 
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Truth

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no one seems to know - so here we go - imho - this day is as a thousand years in the eyes of the Lord - enough time for the likes of him and Nicodemus and other non Christians to be born again as Christians - twinc

I Didn't take time to read all 4 pages, But here we go, In my honest opinion, and every one has a right to my opinion!LOL. OK from what I read about those the Pass, It will be as if they took a nap, they will wake up and there they are, so If Jesus made a Promise, that today you will be, then it stands to reason that the Thief would only know that there was no time lost.
 
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Truth7t7

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Have you ever thought that the thief isn't in Paradise yet, but still is dead awaiting a ressurrection of the righteous and unrighteous
I believe those that have died in faith are present in Abraham's bosom?

To be absent from the body, present with the Lord, sounds like paradise?

I agree the thief is waiting on the Last day resurrection, and glorified body.
 

quietthinker

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I believe those that have died in faith are present in Abraham's bosom?

To be absent from the body, present with the Lord, sounds like paradise?

I agree the thief is waiting on the Last day resurrection, and glorified body.

I am of the understanding that in Jesus telling the story of Abraham and Lazarus he was using a well known myth to illustrate the finality of death in regards to choices. It was never intended as a description of the hereafter.

There are to many flaws to consider it literal and some of the questions it raises are these;

1. Are there other references to Abrahams bosom in the scriptures?
2. Are those in paradise in viewing of those hell and visa versa?
3. If each party can view the other how can heaven be without anxiety if one can see loved ones that are not saved writhing in flames?
4. Does God deliberately set up this scene so the wicked can suffer more by seeing the righteous? If so, this is not consistent with the God of Compassion the scripture puts forward!
5. How could drop of water on the tongue quench anyones thirst let alone one in a fiery environment?

We must be mindful to let the scripture interpret itself. By marrying myth with scripture we do ourselves a disservice and disable our minds from understanding how the dots of join.
 

Truth7t7

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I am of the understanding that in Jesus telling the story of Abraham and Lazarus he was using a well known myth to illustrate the finality of death in regards to choices. It was never intended as a description of the hereafter.

There are to many flaws to consider it literal and some of the questions it raises are these;

1. Are there other references to Abrahams bosom in the scriptures?
2. Are those in paradise in viewing of those hell and visa versa?
3. If each party can view the other how can heaven be without anxiety if one can see loved ones that are not saved writhing in flames?
4. Does God deliberately set up this scene so the wicked can suffer more by seeing the righteous? If so, this is not consistent with the God of Compassion the scripture puts forward!
5. How could drop of water on the tongue quench anyones thirst let alone one in a fiery environment?

We must be mindful to let the scripture interpret itself. By marrying myth with scripture we do ourselves a disservice and disable our minds from understanding how the dots of join.
It's Your opinion Abraham's bosom is Myth, I believe it is a fact in presented scripture.

I disagree with your views, as you challenge God's truth in scripture with human reasoning, your opinion that is unfounded.

Luke 16:22-28KJV
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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I am of the understanding that in Jesus telling the story of Abraham and Lazarus he was using a well known myth to illustrate the finality of death in regards to choices. It was never intended as a description of the hereafter.

There are to many flaws to consider it literal and some of the questions it raises are these;

1. Are there other references to Abrahams bosom in the scriptures?
2. Are those in paradise in viewing of those hell and visa versa?
3. If each party can view the other how can heaven be without anxiety if one can see loved ones that are not saved writhing in flames?
4. Does God deliberately set up this scene so the wicked can suffer more by seeing the righteous? If so, this is not consistent with the God of Compassion the scripture puts forward!
5. How could drop of water on the tongue quench anyones thirst let alone one in a fiery environment?

We must be mindful to let the scripture interpret itself. By marrying myth with scripture we do ourselves a disservice and disable our minds from understanding how the dots of join.

I believe this story is a parable. You can't take it literally.I'm supposed to believe that all the righteous are supposed to literally fit on Abraham Bosom. Like I said the beggar and Rich Man story is a parable.
 

VictoryinJesus

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I am of the understanding that in Jesus telling the story of Abraham and Lazarus he was using a well known myth to illustrate the finality of death in regards to choices. It was never intended as a description of the hereafter.

There are to many flaws to consider it literal and some of the questions it raises are these;

1. Are there other references to Abrahams bosom in the scriptures?
2. Are those in paradise in viewing of those hell and visa versa?
3. If each party can view the other how can heaven be without anxiety if one can see loved ones that are not saved writhing in flames?
4. Does God deliberately set up this scene so the wicked can suffer more by seeing the righteous? If so, this is not consistent with the God of Compassion the scripture puts forward!
5. How could drop of water on the tongue quench anyones thirst let alone one in a fiery environment?

We must be mindful to let the scripture interpret itself. By marrying myth with scripture we do ourselves a disservice and disable our minds from understanding how the dots of join.

Please forgive me for intruding but, there is a lot there in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The obvious
gulf fixed (sin) separating the rich man from the Father (Abraham). The Spirit, as the rich man requested, is sent from the Fathers (Abraham’s) bosom. Luke 16:30-31 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. [31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The Son is sent by the Father to heal the breach (gulf) fixed between man and God. As the rich man couldn’t pass over to Abraham’s bosom. The only way is through the Son. “The restorer of the breach” “paths to dwell in”.

John 1:18
[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(Which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.)

The Son lowered himself to servant:

Luke 16:20-21
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, [21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Matthew 15:26-27
[26] But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. [27] And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Mark 7:27-28
[27] But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. [28] And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

How can a drop of water quench thirst?

John 4:10
[10] Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
 

Truth7t7

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Parable or not parable.
Take notice of what He said.
It could have a major effect on your live.
Absolutely, he called Abrahams bosom a myth?

I believe there is currently a spiritual place, where the righteous dead are congregated, Abraham' bosom is a glimpse of this truth.

Just as Hell is immediate torment upon death, so are the righteous in the Lord's comfort.
 
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quietthinker

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Please forgive me for intruding but, there is a lot there in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The obvious
gulf fixed (sin) separating the rich man from the Father (Abraham). The Spirit, as the rich man requested, is sent from the Fathers (Abraham’s) bosom. Luke 16:30-31 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. [31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The Son is sent by the Father to heal the breach (gulf) fixed between man and God. As the rich man couldn’t pass over to Abraham’s bosom. The only way is through the Son. “The restorer of the breach” “paths to dwell in”.

John 1:18
[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(Which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.)

The Son lowered himself to servant:

Luke 16:20-21
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, [21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Matthew 15:26-27
[26] But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. [27] And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Mark 7:27-28
[27] But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. [28] And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

How can a drop of water quench thirst?

John 4:10
[10] Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Yes, there is more in this story as you have stated. This is the case in all of Jesus's parables and we are to glean these insights for our growth. These stories are bottomless. They deliver messages afresh to even the most informed. Having said they deliver messages afresh does not mean they deliver messages that contradict but rather messages that compliment the whole tenant of scripture.

Jesus uses what men knew about to spread the Good News, for example, lepers and cripples and children and widows and so on. He still does that today when we share a testimony of God's dealings with us. In particular he used nature to direct peoples attention, the things that he had created.
He even used the myths of the day to get his message across. He did not intend them to be a thesis turned into doctrines. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a case in point. Why am I persuaded of this? Because the content of the story is not consistent with what the rest of the scripture has to say on this subject.

Jesus used stories people could relate to. The prodigal son for instance. We know this story as an analogy of the Fathers love for his children but also that of a penitent child and one could expand on that. It was not told as a literal story but as an illustration. It could however have been a real story.

He used stories that fishermen could relate to and stories that farmers both in husbandry and cropping could relate to. Stories that builders could relate to and employers and employees. Stories that the rich could relate to and the poor, even those familiar with and who believed in the various myths that circulated at that time, in fact all classes of society.
These stories where told under the greater umbrella of the message of the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven which of course is an interesting study in itself. He sent the seventy out with authority to tell the message of the Kingdom of Heaven way before his crucifixion. Have you ever wonder what they told the people?

It didn't matter what level of intelligence people had or what status or lack of it they had or how they understood what they understood, rightly or wrongly, he used it to further his God sent purpose.
 
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verzanumi24

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how did he make it to Paradise - notice how scripture has been misinterpreted here to try and justify the wrong interpretations of other scriptures - twinc

He didn't.....not yet. That was something that Jesus promised him that would take place in the second resurrection. Jesus was dead for three days and three nights after He said that. So Jesus was not in paradise.
 

Copperhead

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When looking at the Parable of Lazarus and the rich guy, we need to also keep something else in mind. Matthew 27:52 regarding the saints who were resurrected. Where were they after they died and before their resurrection? They are called "saints", unlike the resurrection of Lazarus by Yeshua, Jairus' daughter, etc.

Many of the early church writers who were familiar with the Apostles or their immediate disciples, seem to concur that these resurrected of Matthew 27:52 were those that were in Abraham's bosom and were resurrected immediately after Yeshua was and were taken to be with the Father. The account does not give us anything substantive to confirm or deny that. We can only assume they got these other details from the Apostles themselves.

Personally, I see them as the first fruits of the harvest. Not the first fruits of the resurrection, which is what Yeshua is, but the harvest of those redeemed by Yeshua. And that they were taken by Yeshua to the Father as per the requirement in the Torah regarding the first fruits of the harvest.

Yeshua told Mary near the tomb area, not to touch or handle Him as He had not yet ascended to the Father. As our High Priest, that would be in keeping with His taking the first fruits of the harvest to the Father: He had to remain ceremonially pure to accomplish that. We know it had nothing to do with His time here after His resurrection because He later told Thomas to put his hand into Yeshua's wounded side to prove that Yeshua had indeed risen.

So, where were the saints of Matthew 27:52 after they died and until they were risen? Could it be realistic that Lazarus was part of those resurrected saints?

Ephesians 4:8-9 (NKJV) Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
 
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quietthinker

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So, where were the saints of Matthew 27:52 after they died and until they were risen? Could it be realistic that Lazarus was part of those resurrected saints?

Scripture does not give us any information on this. If the scripture is silent on certain matters it is inappropriate that we cobble together a theory on the matter. If we do we are stand on forbidden ground.
 
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Copperhead

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Scripture does not give us any information on this. If the scripture is silent on certain matters it is inappropriate that we cobble together a theory on the matter. If we do we are stand on forbidden ground.

Well, I didn't "cobble" a theory and the scripture is not totally silent. I do know what the early church writers had to say about it. Until I read their stuff, I hadn't really been motivated to give it a lot of thought.

But, Dr. Norman Geisler did all the leg work for us on the Matthew 27 saints and what the early Church writers who knew the Apostles or knew their disciples had to say about the issue as well as many recognized Church writers that came later, so I don't need to pile on a lot of links and references that turn a post into a college thesis paper......

http://defendinginerrancy.com/early-fathers-resurrection-saints/

And as for the scripture, Yeshua pointed us to the harvest in many of His discourses. Leviticus 23 gives us the guidelines regarding the harvest. While my assertion may be rather rough and need some polishing (it is fairly recent on my part), it is hardly "cobbled together".
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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I believe this story is a parable. You can't take it literally. I'm supposed to believe that all the righteous are supposed to literally fit on Abraham Bosom. Like I said the beggar and Rich Man story is a parable.
Absolutely, he called Abrahams bosom a myth?

I believe there is currently a spiritual place, where the righteous dead are congregated, Abraham' bosom is a glimpse of this truth.

Just as Hell is immediate torment upon death, so are righteous in the Lord's comfort.

The great majority of the religious sects of Christendom hold that eternal torment in a burning hell is the destiny of the wicked. The words of Jesus recorded at Luke 16:19-31 regarding the rich man and Lazarus are among the proofs offered in support of this teaching. It is argued that these words tell of an incident, are a narration of what actually took place. A tract published by one who holds to this view asks: “Do you not think all who heard the Lord Jesus relate the story of the rich man and Lazarus, would naturally suppose He meant to teach conscious existence after death in happiness or woe?”

Granting, for the sake of argument, that his listeners did think it was an actual incident, that, far from proving that it was, proves just the opposite. How so? Because we are explicitly told that the reason Jesus spoke in parables or illustrations was—that people might understand?—no, but that they might NOT understand. Note his words: “To you [his disciples] it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of God, but for the rest, it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning.” (Luke 8:10, NW) Obviously, whatever meaning his listeners got from the illustration was bound to be the wrong one.

But some further object because Jesus did not indicate in so many words that this was an illustration. But is it necessary that Jesus do this every time when we have the plain statement that “without an illustration, he would not speak to them”? (Matt. 13:34, NW) The mere fact that names are given cannot be used as an argument against its being an illustration, in view of all the evidence that proves that to take it literally is to outrage reason and common sense and to contradict the rest of God’s Word.

Briefly, in this illustration, we first read of a rich man clothed in purple and fine linen who lived in magnificence and of a beggar named Lazarus who sat at his gate, full of ulcers, and who craved the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Each in course of time died. Lazarus was taken by angels to recline upon Abraham’s bosom whereas the rich man was buried, and in Hades suffered torment and from which place he saw Lazarus.—Luke 16:19-23, NW.

Note here that not one word is said about Lazarus’ has been a good man, about his having had faith and proving it by works; both of which are indispensable to gaining everlasting life. (Heb. 11:6; Jas. 2:14-26) When are mere wretchedness, poverty, and disease a guarantee of salvation?

Neither is there a word about the rich man’s having been wicked. By what kind of reasoning and by what principles of justice can it be maintained that simply because a man enjoyed the good things of this life to the full for threescore years and then he must suffer the agonies of a burning hell for billions times billions of years, yes, for eternity? Even fallen, imperfect man appreciates that justice requires that “the punishment fit the crime,” and certainly God is more just than man. Abraham, David, Solomon, Joseph of Arimathea, all had great wealth; does that fact doom them to eternal torment?

Further, Jesus in his arguments with the Jewish clergy evinced a fine sense of logic, second to none. Would he give such a dire warning on the wages of sin and not even mention sin, or tell of the rewards of faith and obedience and not even mention them? Had Jesus meant to warn his listeners about eternal torment he certainly would have stressed these points, but he did nothing of the kind.

Not only that, but we read that Lazarus was carried off to Abraham’s bosom. Are all those gaining salvation reclining on Abraham’s bosom? If we grant that this expression is a figure of speech, why insist that what befell the rich man be taken literally? It simply does not make sense to take one part of the account literally and another parallel part figuratively.

Making Jesus’ words regarding the rich man and Lazarus literal becomes even more untenable when compared with what the rest of God’s Word has to say regarding the penalty of sin and the condition of the dead. Adam was not warned of eternal torment, and upon sinning was simply and plainly told: “Dust you are and to dust, you will return.” (Gen. 3:19; 2:17, NW) Jehovah God didn't say, “Your body will return to the dust”; no, but YOU, Adam, will do so. There is no mistaking the plain testimony of the Scriptures: “The wages sin pays is death.”—Rom. 6:23, NW.


Are we not assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust? Why a resurrection if at death man receives his eternal reward? (Acts 24:15; John 5:28, 29, NW) When the brother of Mary and Martha, Jesus’ friend Lazarus, died, did Jesus comfort those women by assuring them that Lazarus was not dead? No, but with the assurance that he would rise from the dead. His sisters knew that he would “rise in the resurrection on the last day.” And when Jesus called him forth, did he call Lazarus down from Abraham’s bosom, from limbo or from a burning hell? No, but from the grave. Incidentally, had Lazarus been conscious in any such place we may be certain he would have told all his friends about the remarkable experience he had, for he had been dead four days. His very silence on this point is strong circumstantial evidence that he was unconscious.—John 11:22-44, NW.

Besides, how could we account for Abraham’s being in heaven in view of Jesus’ words: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man”? And did not Peter on the day of Pentecost point out to his listeners that David “both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day? Actually, David did not ascend to the heavens”? (John 3:13; Acts 2:29, 34, NW) None of God’s servants had a heavenly reward held out to them before the coming of Christ Jesus; that is why his apostles even after his resurrection were looking to an earthly kingdom.—Ps. 45:16; Acts 1:6-8.

Returning to the illustration: it next tells us of the rich man’s calling “Father Abraham” to send Lazarus to give him relief by a drop of water on the tip of his finger, upon which Abraham reminds him of the good things he enjoyed in his lifetime as compared with what Lazarus had; besides, there is a great chasm between, which makes it impossible for anyone to cross from one place to the other. The rich man then requests that Lazarus be sent to warn his five brothers, but he is told that they have Moses and the Prophets and that if they would not listen to these they would not listen to one raised from the dead.—Luke 16:24-31, NW.

According to the Scriptures, heaven and Hades (Sheol) are at opposite extremes. (Ps. 139:8; Luke 10:15) Could we imagine those in one place seeing those in the other and carrying on a conversation? And were the rich man in a burning hell would he ask for just a drop of water to cool his tongue? How much relief would that bring? Would it last to reach him? Could anyone get anywhere near a burning hell with just a drop of water? Obviously, this is a figure of speech even as is Abraham’s bosom, yes, and as are all the rest of Jesus’ words on that occasion.