The thief on the cross !?

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Barney

Why do you present what you wrote as mine in post 117? Are you that unstable and insecure? Your arguments don't hold up so you must mix my words with yours.

So, concerning your last statement, again, get another Bible. Do you hold to the apocrypha as Scripture?

Stranger

You can believe what you want about me, just understand that the only opinion about me that matters to me among people on the planet is my own. I've already told you that I don't have a Jerusalem Bible, the one I have is fine, I use the new world translation, it's better than any other Bible I've come across.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Abrahams bosom is a title of a place. No problem there. Just like 'in Christ' is a title of a place. Both are literal.

Stranger

That means your taking Abraham Bosom symbolically, not literally. So are you taking some parts literally and other parts symbolically?

 

[Harvest 1874]

I would agree with this but not with your next paragraph. The souls and spirits of the righteous dead (the justified ones) would be in Sheol/Hades until the resurrection of Christ. So Christ Himself (His soul and spirit) went to Hades (called "hell" in the KJB, which is very misleading), and so did the soul and spirit of the saved thief.

After three days and three nights, Christ took all the righteous dead (the OT saints) with Him to Heaven (more specifically the New Jerusalem in Heaven). Since Paradise is indeed in the New Jerusalem, that thief was in Paradise as promised by Christ. But within a matter of three days. And those righteous dead are called "the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:23).

Your assertion that immediately following his resurrection our Lord took all the righteous dead (along with the thief) up to heaven completely contradicts the divine testimony.

First of all we have the Lord's positive declaration that "no man has ascended up to heaven save he who came down from heaven..." (John 3:13) Not then, and not now.

Nor did our Lord ascend into heaven immediately following his resurrection for the testimony of the scriptures is that following his resurrection he first appeared to Mary (she at first believing him to be the gardener), but when she finally realized it was him she attempted to embraced him, but was told, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ” John 20:17

We know that his ascension did not take place for another 40 days.

“…to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.” (Acts 1:3- 11)

With just these few facts we have established that the Lord did not mean to say that the thief would be with him that very day in paradise.

Now it’s possible due to the widespread and repeated preaching’s of our Lord and the disciples that this thief, knew of his coming kingdom, however it’s highly doubtful that he understood there would be two phases of that kingdom, a heavenly and an earthly phase, this was hard enough for the disciples themselves to comprehend.

Therefore it is most probable that when the thief asks the Lord to remember him when he came into his kingdom, that he was referring to the earthly kingdom as was promised to the fathers.

Take special note of what the thief asked, he did not ask Jesus to remember him on the day they were crucified, but rather to remember him at a future time—"WHEN you come into your kingdom"

In teaching His disciples to pray, "Thy kingdom come; thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven," Jesus was showing that His kingdom was still future.

Our Lord’s reply to the thief was, ‘I’m telling you today, you will be with me in paradise (that is when I come into my kingdom)’.

The word paradise, meaning garden, is used in the Bible to refer to:

(A) The Garden of Eden, "the garden of God" (Gen 2:8- 15; Ezek 28:13), i.e., the perfect abode of Adam and Eve while sinless;

(B) God’s abode, in heaven (Rev 2:7);

(C) The earth after the kingdom has been set up, as and after its curse of sin and death is increasingly removed (Rev 22:1- 3, compare Gen 2:9, 10; 1 Cor 15:26), and it becomes increasingly (Dan 2:35) "like the garden of Eden" (Ezek 36:35), i.e., Paradise Lost becomes Paradise Regained, which new earth was seen in vision and prophesized together with the third, the new heaven- the spiritual control of Christ (2 Cor 12:1- 4; 2 Peter 3:6, 7, 12, 13; Rev 21:1- 3)- that will supplant the spiritual control of Satan, "the god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4; Gal 1:4; Eph 2:2)

Of the three Biblically- mentioned paradises,

(A) Was destroyed long before Jesus’ death, and

(C) Is still future; hence

(B) Alone existed when Jesus died; but on the third day thereafter as stated He had not yet gone there, nor did He go there until 40 days later.

Therefore the comma should have been placed after the word "today" in Luke 23:43, and NOT before it, as is done in many Bible translations

Placing the comma before the word "today" (thus: "I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise") would make Jesus a liar, for it would mean that He had promised the thief that he would be with Him in paradise on the same day they were crucified, when in fact He knew very well from the Scriptures that He was not going there that day, but on that day was to pour out His soul unto death (Isa 53:10, 12) and His soul was to descend into hell (hades- the death state- Acts 2:30- 32), from which He would not be raised until the third day (Luke 18:31- 33).

Placing the comma after the word "today" (thus: "I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise") creates no such difficulties, furthermore it shows that Jesus merely made the promise to the thief on that day, though the promise would not be fulfilled until Jesus would come into His kingdom?

Jesus appreciated the dying thief’s manifestation of reverence for God and true repentance for sins committed (Luke 23:40, 41), and therefore on that dark day graciously granted his request and gave him the comforting assurance that he would be with Him in paradise- the earthly phase of His kingdom- when it is established, for it is evident that the thief’s repentance, So close to the time of his death, did not give him time to be properly prepared for a place in the heavenly, spiritual phase of the kingdom?

God never promised that any would be rewarded immediately at death; rather, He showed that they would sleep in death (1 Kings 2:10; Dan 12:2; John 11:11- 14, 44; 1 Cor 15:6, 18, 20; 1 Thess 4:13- 17) and get their rewards at the time of Jesus’ Second Advent, in the resurrection awakening (John 14:3; Matt 16:27; Luke 14:14; 2 Tim 4:8; 1 Peter 1:7, 13)

 

[Harvest 1874]

Your further assertion that, “Christ took all the righteous dead (the OT saints) with Him to Heaven” that “those righteous dead are called "the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:23) is half right and half wrong.

It’s true the Old Testament saints (the Ancient Worthies) are the ones referred to as "the spirits of just men made perfect", made perfect by their faith and through the things they suffered for God, however their reward is not a heavenly inheritance but rather an earthly inheritance, nor have they been resurrected yet, "God having provided some better thing for us (the Church), that they without us should not be made perfect (because the blessings of all other classes is to come through the glorified Christ)." Heb. 11:40

Our thought would be that Paul refers to the ancient worthies and to the fact that their lives, their spirit of life, would be made perfect when in the resurrection they would come forth perfect beings, not imperfect beings as they went down. The majority of mankind will come forth to be gradually perfected, but the just men whose lives will then be perfect will have their grand share because their hearts were already tested in that previous time, and thus they will experience an instantaneous resurrection to human perfection.

“To the law and to the testimony! If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light (truth) in them.” Isa 8:20

 

[quietthinker]

We have (3) likes on the post "Above"?

You all agree and like?

Jesus Christ, God In The Flesh Was Using man's "Mythology"?

I find it interesting that Jesus does not use the methods we expect of him. He wasn’t the Messiah the Jews expected either.

At times Jesus healed with a word, at another time he made mud and put it on a blind mans eyes and then asked him to wash it off (participation). At another he allowed demons to posses pigs and get drowned and at yet another he turned water into wine so the party could continue.
The accounts we have does not allow us to put Jesus and God for that matter, in a box.

Soooo, did Jesus use this myth of the rich man and Lazarus to make a point? I think so.

Incidentally, because he named the begger by the name of Lazarus is no indication that it was Lazarus, the brother of Martha and Mary. The information we have about these men does not support them being the same person.

 

[Truth7t7]

I did answer that question by saying that the scriptures when Jesus is speaking concerning the rich man and Lazarus, that it is a parable, I said nothing about it being a myth or that Jesus used mythology in explaning spiritual matters.

I am of the understanding that in Jesus telling the story of Abraham and Lazarus he was using a well known myth to illustrate the finality of death in regards to choices. It was never intended as a description of the hereafter.

There are to many flaws to consider it literal and some of the questions it raises are these;

1. Are there other references to Abrahams bosom in the scriptures?
2. Are those in paradise in viewing of those hell and visa versa?
3. If each party can view the other how can heaven be without anxiety if one can see loved ones that are not saved writhing in flames?
4. Does God deliberately set up this scene so the wicked can suffer more by seeing the righteous? If so, this is not consistent with the God of Compassion the scripture puts forward!
5. How could drop of water on the tongue quench anyones thirst let alone one in a fiery environment?

We must be mindful to let the scripture interpret itself. By marrying myth with scripture we do ourselves a disservice and disable our minds from understanding how the dots of join.

Quickthinker made the claim as documented, Nobody Is Claiming "Barney" Stated Such.

I will ask the basic question again?

Do you believe "Jesus Used Mythology" in the Rich Man/Lazarus teaching?

 

[Truth7t7]

I find it interesting that Jesus does not use the methods we expect of him. He wasn’t the Messiah the Jews expected either.

At times Jesus healed with a word, at another time he made mud and put it on a blind mans eyes and then asked him to wash it off (participation). At another he allowed demons to posses pigs and get drowned and at yet another he turned water into wine so the party could continue.
The accounts we have does not allow us to put Jesus and God for that matter, in a box.

Soooo, did Jesus use this myth of the rich man and Lazarus to make a point? I think so.

Incidentally, because he named the begger by the name of Lazarus is no indication that it was Lazarus, the brother of Martha and Mary. The information we have about these men does not support them being the same person.

Jesus didn't use "Man's Mythology" as you claim, Jesus was God Manifest in the flesh, do you believe that was Mythology also?

 

[brakelite]

This thread is a stark exposition of the confusion and deception that has taken hold of God's people. Of course it is in other threads also, but this particular one because it mixes two seemingly disparate incidents; the story/parable of Lazarus and the thief on the cross. What is revealing is that in most peoples minds is a preconceived mindset that demands an incorrect conclusion to both...and that incorrect conclusion is shared in both stories. That mindset began in Eden, and is based solely on a sermon from Satan himself...a sermon believed and accepted by the people of God today in every way as much as if it were Jesus Himself preaching it. The main thrust of the sermon to Eve was "thou shalt not surely die". And the conclusion drawn is that man is immortal, thus goes straight to heaven or hell upon the death of his body. Even Jesus, because His "soul" or spirit supposedly went to 'paradise' that day, did not "surely die". The ramifications of this satanic deception has been seen throughout history and in many circles. Todays entire new age movement is based on it, all false religions reflect it, and "Christianity" is infused with it.

 

[Truth7t7]

This thread is a stark exposition of the confusion and deception that has taken hold of God's people. Of course it is in other threads also, but this particular one because it mixes two seemingly disparate incidents; the story/parable of Lazarus and the thief on the cross. What is revealing is that in most peoples minds is a preconceived mindset that demands an incorrect conclusion to both...and that incorrect conclusion is shared in both stories. That mindset began in Eden, and is based solely on a sermon from Satan himself...a sermon believed and accepted by the people of God today in every way as much as if it were Jesus Himself preaching it. The main thrust of the sermon to Eve was "thou shalt not surely die". And the conclusion drawn is that man is immortal, thus goes straight to heaven or hell upon the death of his body. Even Jesus, because His "soul" or spirit supposedly went to 'paradise' that day, did not "surely die". The ramifications of this satanic deception has been seen throughout history and in many circles. Todays entire new age movement is based on it, all false religions reflect it, and "Christianity" is infused with it.

Pretty simple, nothing New Age, Jesus God Manifest Let The Thief Know When He Crossed The Veil, He Would Be With Him.

You disregard the very clear scripture, "today you will be with me" Simple!

No need to go any father, "The Thief Is With Jesus"!

Luke 23:43KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[quietthinker]

Why

Jesus didn't use "Man's Mythology" as you claim, Jesus was God Manifest in the flesh, do you believe that was Mythology also?

Jesus was not a myth.
Context is either our friend or our enemy. We choose the allegiance we offer.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

But the rich man did not say send the Son. He said send Lazarus.

Stranger

Luke 16:24
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

How could Father Abraham “have mercy” on the rich man by sending one(Lazarus) to his five brethren?

Lazarus is a given name and surname. It is derived from the Hebrew אלעזר, Elʿāzār (Eleazar) meaning "God has helped".[1]

Gender Male
Word/name Hebrew
Meaning God has helped
Derived Eleazar
Related names Lazar

who is Eleazar?

John 1:18
[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[Harvest 1874]

JESUS is relating an illustration about a rich man and a poor beggar named Lazarus. The rich man represents the religious leaders who are favored with spiritual privileges and opportunities, and Lazarus pictures the common people who hunger for spiritual nourishment. Jesus continues his story, describing a dramatic change in the men’s circumstances.

“Now in course of time,” Jesus says, “the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom position of Abraham. Also, the rich man died and was buried And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in the bosom position with him.”

Since the rich man and Lazarus are not literal persons but symbolize classes of people logically their deaths are also symbolic. What do their deaths symbolize, or represent?

Jesus has just finished pointing to a change in circumstances by saying that ‘the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptizer, but from then on the kingdom of God is being declared.’ Hence, it is with the preaching of John and Jesus Christ that both the rich man and Lazarus die to their former circumstances, or condition.

Those of the humble, repentant Lazarus class die to their former spiritually deprived condition and come into a position of divine favor. Whereas they had earlier looked to the religious leaders for what little dropped from the spiritual table, now the Scriptural truths imparted by Jesus are filling their needs. They are thus brought into the bosom, or favored position, of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God.

On the other hand, those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor because of persistently refusing to accept the Kingdom message taught by Jesus. They thereby die to their former position of seeming favor. In fact, they are spoken of as being in figurative torment. Listen as the rich man speaks:

Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.” God’s fiery judgment messages proclaimed by Jesus’ disciples are what torment individuals of the rich-manclass. They want the disciples to let up on declaring these messages, thus providing them some measure of relief from their torments.

But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Lazarus correspondingly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish. And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you people, so that those wanting to go ove that those wanting to go over from here to you people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’”

How just and appropriate that such a dramatic reversal take place between the Lazarus class and the rich man class! The change in conditions is accomplished a few months later at Pentecost 33 C.E., when the old Law covenant is replaced by the new covenant. It then becomes unmistakably clear that the disciples are favored by God, not the Pharisees and other religious leaders. The “great chasm” that separates the symbolic rich man from Jesus’ disciples therefore represents God’s unchangeable, righteous judgment.

The rich man next requests “father Abraham” to send Lazarus “to the house of my father, for I have five brothers.” The rich man thus confesses he has a closer relationship to another father, who is actually Satan the Devil. The rich man requests that Lazarus water down God’s judgment messages so as not to put his “five brothers,” his religious allies, in “this place of torment.”

But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’” Yes, if the “five brothers” would escape torment, all they have to do is heed the writings of Moses and the Prophets that identify Jesus as the Messiah and then become his disciples. But the rich man objects: “‘No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’” God will not provide special signs or miracles to convince such. People must read and apply the Scriptures if they would obtain his favor. Luke 16:16, 22-31;

This is quite an interesting take on the parable my brother, we can agree on much of what has been said howbeit as Bible Students we see it slightly different and I hope to present our view as soon as I am able, but alas I have so many projects on the table right now that time is rather scarce. Nevertheless I can see that you are a student of God's Word who is in possession of the "spirit of a sound mind" able to see much of what has been hidden from the eyes of the world and the nominally professing church.

 

[quietthinker]

This thread is a stark exposition of the confusion and deception that has taken hold of God's people. Of course it is in other threads also, but this particular one because it mixes two seemingly disparate incidents; the story/parable of Lazarus and the thief on the cross. What is revealing is that in most peoples minds is a preconceived mindset that demands an incorrect conclusion to both...and that incorrect conclusion is shared in both stories. That mindset began in Eden, and is based solely on a sermon from Satan himself...a sermon believed and accepted by the people of God today in every way as much as if it were Jesus Himself preaching it. The main thrust of the sermon to Eve was "thou shalt not surely die". And the conclusion drawn is that man is immortal, thus goes straight to heaven or hell upon the death of his body. Even Jesus, because His "soul" or spirit supposedly went to 'paradise' that day, did not "surely die". The ramifications of this satanic deception has been seen throughout history and in many circles. Todays entire new age movement is based on it, all false religions reflect it, and "Christianity" is infused with it.

It is belief in the immortality of the soul that colours many of the theological positions held today. This is the root that fouls clean waters.
It is the heart of spiritualism the which in our day is being accepted as a higher consciousness. As you have rightly said, it is the base lie that satan told our first parents, even a cursory look at the story reveals that.

 

[Harvest 1874]

This thread is a stark exposition of the confusion and deception that has taken hold of God's people. Of course it is in other threads also, but this particular one because it mixes two seemingly disparate incidents; the story/parable of Lazarus and the thief on the cross. What is revealing is that in most peoples minds is a preconceived mindset that demands an incorrect conclusion to both...and that incorrect conclusion is shared in both stories. That mindset began in Eden, and is based solely on a sermon from Satan himself...a sermon believed and accepted by the people of God today in every way as much as if it were Jesus Himself preaching it. The main thrust of the sermon to Eve was "thou shalt not surely die". And the conclusion drawn is that man is immortal, thus goes straight to heaven or hell upon the death of his body. Even Jesus, because His "soul" or spirit supposedly went to 'paradise' that day, did not "surely die". The ramifications of this satanic deception has been seen throughout history and in many circles. Todays entire new age movement is based on it, all false religions reflect it, and "Christianity" is infused with it.

The thread was basically hijacked like so many others, nevertheless sometimes you have to follow the thread where it leads you. Of course the moderators could simply transfer the new line of discussion (The Rich man and Lazarus) to a new thread if that would help.

 

[Truth7t7]

It is belief in the immortality of the soul that colours many of the theological positions held today. This is the root that fouls clean waters.
It is the heart of spiritualism the which in our day is being accepted as a higher consciousness. As you have rightly said, it is the base lie that satan told our first parents, even a cursory look at the story reveals that.

The "Soul" is immortal, it is you who errors from the truth of scripture.

Matthew 10:28KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Enoch111]

Your assertion that immediately following his resurrection our Lord took all the righteous dead (along with the thief) up to heaven completely contradicts the divine testimony.

No it does not. The righteous dead were in Sheol/Hades until the resurrection of Christ. Ever since they are in Heaven (along with that thief who was saved). They are called "the spirits of just men made perfect".

And these all [the OT saints], having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect... (Heb 11:39,40)

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn [the Church], which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect [the OT saints], And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Heb 12:22-24)

Paul wrote the epistle to the Hebrews in c 64 AD. By then many Christians (including some apostles) had been martyred or died. He had already stated in Hebrews 11 that the OT saints should not be made perfect until the NT saints came into existence ("without us") following the crucifixion of Christ. So now Paul presents us with the occupants of the New Jerusalem by divine inspiration.

1. An innumerable company of angels
2. The Church (the NT saints)
3. God the Judge of all
4. The spirits of just [justified] men made perfect (the OT saints)
5. Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant
6. The blood of Christ in the heavenly Sanctuary

When did the OT saints go to Heaven?
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (Eph 4:8-10)

The OT saints were held "captive" in Sheol/Hades (which is in the lower parts of the earth) until the resurrection -- "when He ascended up on High". At that time the *gates* of Hades were metaphorically torn down by Christ and "He led captivity captive" by removing the saints from Sheol/Hades. Otherwise they could not have been "made perfect".

 

[brakelite]

Pretty simple, nothing New Age, Jesus God Manifest Let The Thief Know When He Crossed The Veil, He Would Be With Him.

You disregard the very clear scripture, "today you will be with me" Simple!

No need to go any father, "The Thief Is With Jesus"!

Luke 23:43KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The "Soul" is immortal, it is you who errors from the truth of scripture.

Matthew 10:28KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die...
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Genesis 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: (Let us not read int this more than necessary...God was speaking to the whole man, not just his body. Thus is is the whole man that dies...the wages of sin is death to the whole man).
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (It is the whole man that will eat of the tree of life in the new earth...it is the whole man that without the tree of life now, ie Jesus, which dies.)

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Quickthinker made the claim as documented, Nobody Is Claiming "Barney" Stated Such.

I will ask the basic question again?

Do you believe "Jesus Used Mythology" in the Rich Man/Lazarus teaching?

I've already texted several times that Jesus spoke to most of the crowds in parables. Mythology and parables not the same thing. I don't understand why you can't accept this answer.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

No need to go any father, "The Thief Is With Jesus"!

The thief is still dead and in Hades(common grave of mankind) The thief will be resurrected during the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ.

Luke 23:43KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Luke 23:43 should have the comma after the word "today" like this: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[Stranger]

You can believe what you want about me, just understand that the only opinion about me that matters to me among people on the planet is my own. I've already told you that I don't have a Jerusalem Bible, the one I have is fine, I use the new world translation, it's better than any other Bible I've come across.

Well, you used the Jerusalem Bible to support your statements. Which support is questionable, as the Jerusalem Bible contains the apocrypha also.

Stranger