The thief on the cross !?

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BARNEY BRIGHT

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If this was actually a parable, what exactly was it illustrating? Every parable illustrated a spiritual truth or truths.

This was definitely NOT a parable, since it provided insight into the afterlife, and the fate of the righteous and the unrighteous in Sheol/Hades. That actual personages are mentioned strengthens that belief even more. That Christ Himself went to Hades while His body was entombed is even more evidence that this was not a parable.

JESUS is relating an illustration about a rich man and a poor beggar named Lazarus. The rich man represents the religious leaders who are favored with spiritual privileges and opportunities, and Lazarus pictures the common people who hunger for spiritual nourishment. Jesus continues his story, describing a dramatic change in the men’s circumstances.

“Now in course of time,” Jesus says, “the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom position of Abraham. Also, the rich man died and was buried And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in the bosom position with him.”

Since the rich man and Lazarus are not literal persons but symbolize classes of people logically their deaths are also symbolic. What do their deaths symbolize, or represent?

Jesus has just finished pointing to a change in circumstances by saying that ‘the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptizer, but from then on the kingdom of God is being declared.’ Hence, it is with the preaching of John and Jesus Christ that both the rich man and Lazarus die to their former circumstances, or condition.

Those of the humble, repentant Lazarus class die to their former spiritually deprived condition and come into a position of divine favor. Whereas they had earlier looked to the religious leaders for what little dropped from the spiritual table, now the Scriptural truths imparted by Jesus are filling their needs. They are thus brought into the bosom, or favored position, of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God.

On the other hand, those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor because of persistently refusing to accept the Kingdom message taught by Jesus. They thereby die to their former position of seeming favor. In fact, they are spoken of as being in figurative torment. Listen as the rich man speaks:

Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.” God’s fiery judgment messages proclaimed by Jesus’ disciples are what torment individuals of the rich-manclass. They want the disciples to let up on declaring these messages, thus providing them some measure of relief from their torments.

But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Lazarus correspondingly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish. And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you people, so that those wanting to go ove that those wanting to go over from here to you people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’”

How just and appropriate that such a dramatic reversal take place between the Lazarus class and the rich man class! The change in conditions is accomplished a few months later at Pentecost 33 C.E., when the old Law covenant is replaced by the new covenant. It then becomes unmistakably clear that the disciples are favored by God, not the Pharisees and other religious leaders. The “great chasm” that separates the symbolic rich man from Jesus’ disciples therefore represents God’s unchangeable, righteous judgment.

The rich man next requests “father Abraham” to send Lazarus “to the house of my father, for I have five brothers.” The rich man thus confesses he has a closer relationship to another father, who is actually Satan the Devil. The rich man requests that Lazarus water down God’s judgment messages so as not to put his “five brothers,” his religious allies, in “this place of torment.”

But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’” Yes, if the “five brothers” would escape torment, all they have to do is heed the writings of Moses and the Prophets that identify Jesus as the Messiah and then become his disciples. But the rich man objects: “‘No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’” God will not provide special signs or miracles to convince such. People must read and apply the Scriptures if they would obtain his favor. Luke 16:16, 22-31;
 

Stranger

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The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.”

The Jerusalem Bible includes the apocrypha as Scripture also. You need to get another Bible.


I've said nothing about mythology in anything I text. I said what Luke 8: 10 said, that Jesus spoke in parables or illustrations. The rich man and Lazarus is a parable an illustration, not an actual event. Jesus wasn't telling a story that actually happened.

Though Jesus used parables, it doesn't mean everytime He spoke He spoke a parable. And, concerning (Luke 8:10), Jesus is addressing the mystery form of the the Kingdom of God which was now coming instead of the Kingdom of God as preached at the beginning. And He then labeled the parable, a parable. (Luke 8:11) "Now the parable is this:"

There is no reason the story of the rich man and Lazarus should not be understood as a real story and not a parable. A personal name, Lazarus, given to a real person. And how interesting that Christ did not give the name of the rich man.

Stranger
 
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brakelite

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Jesus did not go to Paradise that day. He was in the grave. Therefore whatever Jesus meant when He said the thief would be there with Him at some future time, we can be certain it wasn't that day.
 

VictoryinJesus

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There is no reason the story of the rich man and Lazarus should not be understood as a real story and not a parable. A personal name, Lazarus, given to a real person. And how interesting that Christ did not give the name of the rich man.


Luke 16:24
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

How odd he asked for Lazarus specifically. He cried: Father God, have mercy on me, and send the Son!!

Luke 16:31
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Pre-crucifix)

Lazarus also being the one ‘raised from the dead’.

John 11:4
[4] When Jesus heard that , he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

No connection? I’m not saying there was no Lazarus. Only that within the scripture God has written and orchestrated there are no accidents.

Another:
John 11:44
[44] And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

John 20:6-7
[6] Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, [7] And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
 

Truth7t7

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How can you explain dead people congregating?
A figure of human speech, sorta like Rev 20:4

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
 

Truth7t7

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I've said nothing about mythology in anything I text. I said what Luke 8: 10 said, that Jesus spoke in parables or illustrations. The rich man and Lazarus is a parable an illustration, not an actual event. Jesus wasn't telling a story that actually happened.
You avoided the direct question, I will ask it again?

Do you believe "Jesus Used Mythology" in the Rich Man/Lazarus teaching?

quietthinker said:
I am of the understanding that in Jesus telling the story of Abraham and Lazarus he was using a well known myth to illustrate the finality of death in regards to choices. It was never intended as a description of the hereafter.
 

Truth7t7

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I am of the understanding that in Jesus telling the story of Abraham and Lazarus he was using a well known myth to illustrate the finality of death in regards to choices. It was never intended as a description of the hereafter.

There are to many flaws to consider it literal and some of the questions it raises are these;

1. Are there other references to Abrahams bosom in the scriptures?
2. Are those in paradise in viewing of those hell and visa versa?
3. If each party can view the other how can heaven be without anxiety if one can see loved ones that are not saved writhing in flames?
4. Does God deliberately set up this scene so the wicked can suffer more by seeing the righteous? If so, this is not consistent with the God of Compassion the scripture puts forward!
5. How could drop of water on the tongue quench anyones thirst let alone one in a fiery environment?

We must be mindful to let the scripture interpret itself. By marrying myth with scripture we do ourselves a disservice and disable our minds from understanding how the dots of join.
We have (3) likes on the post "Above"?

You all agree and like?

Jesus Christ, God In The Flesh Was Using man's "Mythology"?
 

Truth7t7

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Jesus did not go to Paradise that day. He was in the grave. Therefore whatever Jesus meant when He said the thief would be there with Him at some future time, we can be certain it wasn't that day.
Jesus Christ Maintained The Same Spiritual Body After Death As The Thief, When The Bible States He Was With Jesus, No Further Interpretation Needed.

Luke 23:43KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
 
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brakelite

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Jesus Christ Maintained The Same Spiritual Body After Death As The Thief, When The Bible States He Was With Jesus, No Further Interpretation Needed.

Luke 23:43KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
So you agree with the trinity...Jesus, the Son of God didn't die. Just a human sacrifice.
 

Truth7t7

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So you agree with the trinity...Jesus, the Son of God didn't die. Just a human sacrifice.
I don't know what tree you barking up brake?

I believe Jesus Christ Was fully God The Son in a human body.

This human body Of Jesus physically died as did the thiefs.

You disregard the very clear scripture, "today you will be with me" Simple!

No need to go any father, "The Thief Is With Jesus"!

Luke 23:43KJV
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
 

Helen

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In this you err my friend we are not basing our understanding of the text simply upon the punctuation of the sentence, much more importantly is what does the whole testimony of the Word of God say upon the subject.

What do the scriptures teach us in regards to salvation, how and by what means is it accomplished, how and when we were justified, when and where precisely the presentation of the merit of Christ sacrifice took place, when does the times of restitution take place, when and to whom is the kingdom, paradise restored to be given, all of these factors must first be considered before we jump to any hasty conclusions. If something seems amiss and does not harmonize with the whole testimony of God, it’s a sure bet that something is wrong.

The Word of God as a whole supersedes man's attempts at placing punctuation where he imagines it to go.

Good post.
I agree...whenever any of us came to Christ we are IN a new day. It's not just "a day".
In God, it is always TODAY!!

At salvation we came out of time...into timeless....
God is always NOW.


NOW is the Day of salvation...

Isa 49
"For He saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold,now is the day ... "

Heb. "TODAY if you will hear His voice..."
It's always today, and we can always hear His voice if we get quiet enough to hear...
When we leave this world we don't as such enter a new day...it's just a brighter continuation of this glorious Day that we are now in...with Him.

That's how I see it. :)
 
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Stranger

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Luke 16:24
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

How odd he asked for Lazarus specifically. He cried: Father God, have mercy on me, and send the Son!!

Luke 16:31
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Pre-crucifix)

Lazarus also being the one ‘raised from the dead’.

John 11:4
[4] When Jesus heard that , he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

No connection? I’m not saying there was no Lazarus. Only that within the scripture God has written and orchestrated there are no accidents.

Another:
John 11:44
[44] And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

John 20:6-7
[6] Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, [7] And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

But the rich man did not say send the Son. He said send Lazarus.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Jesus did not go to Paradise that day. He was in the grave. Therefore whatever Jesus meant when He said the thief would be there with Him at some future time, we can be certain it wasn't that day.

Jesus said 'today'.

Stranger
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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The Jerusalem Bible includes the apocrypha as Scripture also. You need to get another Bible.




Though Jesus used parables, it doesn't mean everytime He spoke He spoke a parable. And, concerning (Luke 8:10), Jesus is addressing the mystery form of the the Kingdom of God which was now coming instead of the Kingdom of God as preached at the beginning. And He then labeled the parable, a parable. (Luke 8:11) "Now the parable is this:"

There is no reason the story of the rich man and Lazarus should not be understood as a real story and not a parable. A personal name, zarus, given to a real person. And how interesting that Christ did not give the name of the rich man.

Stranger

Ok if you want to believe everyone literally fits on the literal bosom of Abraham, that's your choice. I myself know not to take everything that is said literally like that.
 

twinc

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Jesus did not go to Paradise that day. He was in the grave. Therefore whatever Jesus meant when He said the thief would be there with Him at some future time, we can be certain it wasn't that day.


here is where mixed up, messed up, fallible human interpretation claiming H/S inspiration and guidance - it is Tom Brown's body that lies in the grave but his soul/spirit goes marchinjg on - more later
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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The Jerusalem Bible includes the apocrypha as Scripture also. You need to get another Bible.

I don't have the Jerusalem Bible I was simply using that particular Bible to show that even some translaters of Scripture agree that the rich man and Lazarus was a parable.

By the way, I'm not going to be dogmatic like you and believe that just because a certain version of the Bible has errors in it, doesn't mean everything in that Bible is wrong. If I do that then I would have to stop reading the majority of Bibles including the KJV that so many people like.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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You avoided the direct question, I will ask it again?

Do you believe "Jesus Used Mythology" in the Rich Man/Lazarus teaching?

I did answer that question by saying that the scriptures when Jesus is speaking concerning the rich man and Lazarus, that it is a parable, I said nothing about it being a myth or that Jesus used mythology in explaning spiritual matters.
 

Stranger

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Barney

Why do you present what you wrote as mine in post 117? Are you that unstable and insecure? Your arguments don't hold up so you must mix my words with yours.

So, concerning your last statement, again, get another Bible. Do you hold to the apocrypha as Scripture?

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Ok if you want to believe everyone literally fits on the literal bosom of Abraham, that's your choice. I myself know not to take everything that is said literally like that.

Abrahams bosom is a title of a place. No problem there. Just like 'in Christ' is a title of a place. Both are literal.

Stranger