Go to the Greek texts! Whether the Novum Testamentum or the Textus Receptus or any other old Greek manuscript of First Corinthians you care to name, there isn't a version of 1 Cor. 10:9 that doesn't have Χριστόν.
"The word was a god"?
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Go to the Greek texts! Whether the Novum Testamentum or the Textus Receptus or any other old Greek manuscript of First Corinthians you care to name, there isn't a version of 1 Cor. 10:9 that doesn't have Χριστόν.
Yes indeed, the truth and nothing but the truth. (John 17:17) To separate or sanctify those with this truth, those that believe in the son and his Father, the only true God. Separate these believers from the world from those that think the Son is also God and not the true Son of God, and for only those that believe in this truth. Amen.
THE TRUTH that many cannot and will not believe in. @dhh712 as you say, with my addition...I will die on a hill composed of lies and the traditions of men, in vain. So sad.
(Joh 17:3) And this is eternal life, that they know you (the Father in John 17:1), the only true God, and Jesus Christ (the Son of God, the Father) whom you have sent. (ESV)
(Joh 17:11) And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father (his God and mine), keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. (ESV)
What simple truth is not clearly understood here?! How can so many people deliberately want to sc&#$ this all up with lies, it is beyond me?
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BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
The scriptures regarding John 1:1 the end of that verse says in some version of the Bible that, "the word was God." In some other versions it says concerning the end of John 1:1 that, "the word was divine." In other versions it says, "the word was a god."
The reason some translations translate the end of John 1:1 as, "the word was divine" or, "the word was a god," is because it would contradict the preceding clause in John 1:1, which says that the Word was with God. In John 1:1 there are two occurrences of the Greek noun the•os'(god). The first occurrence refers to the Almighty God, with whom the Word was("and the Word [lo•gos] was with God [A form of the•os']). This first the•os' is preceded by the Greek word ton (the), a form of the Greek definite article that points to a distinct identity, in this case Almighty God ("and the Word was with [the] God"). On the other hand, there is no article before the second the•os' at John 1:1. So a literal translation would read, "and god was the word." Yet there are versions of the scriptures that translate the Second the•os' (A predicate noun) as "divine," "godlike," or "A god." These translator of the sciptures understand that the Greek language of the scriptures(new testament) is koine Greek and in John 1:1 it had a definite article ("the") before the first occurrence of the•os'(god). The koine Greek language didn't have indefinite articles("a" or "an"). So when a predicate noun is not preceded by the definite article, it may be indefinite, depending on the context.
The Journal of Biblical Literature says that expressions "with an anarthrous [ no article] predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning." As the Journal notes, this indicates that the lo'gos(god) can be likened to a god. It also says of John 1:1: "The qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent that the noun [the•os'] can not be regarded as definite."
So John 1:1 highlights the quality of the Word, that he was "divine," "godlike," "A god," but not Almighty God. This harmonizes with the rest of the scriptures, which shows that Jesus, here called "the Word" in his role as God's Spokesman, was an obedient subordinate sent to earth by his Superior, Almighty God.
Well said Barney. And I have to admit I was a little ignorant of what I believed was the JW explanation of John 1:1c especially. I always though it was rigidly linked to 'a god 'or another person.
I especially like your last paragraph summary. I prefer and only accept the quality or attribute of the word (logos) as being divine, that the divine voice or expression of God Almighty being now in Jesus. then and today.
dhh712
Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter what you call it, APAK. I call your beliefs lies of the devil and you call mine lies of the devil. That's pretty standard for those who having opposing beliefs. What matters is what the truth is. We'll find that out shortly, won't we. And I'll stand and die on that hill. If it's in vain, well, I guess that's too bad for me isn't it. Whatever lies you may name it, I will worship Jesus the Christ the only Living God. For me to live is Christ and to die is gain. And that will happen very, very soon. You can feel sorry for me if you wish to, that is your right; it is nice to see that some people still have sympathy for others.
teamventure
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John 8:23-24 “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.
According to scripture, the two go together. If you if you do not believe Jesus is God you will die in your sins.
How's that for no scripture?
teamventure
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John 10:30 “The Father and I are one.”
John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.“
Colossians 2:9-10 “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.“
John 5:18 “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.“
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.“
John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.“
John 8:57-58 “The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”
John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.“
Colossians 2:9-10 “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.“
John 5:18 “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.“
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.“
John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.“
John 8:57-58 “The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
It’s good that you are actually presenting scripture in your post - I like that.
However the scripture you quoted does not support the notion that Jesus is God.
That “he” that Christ was referring to was this:
“…I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” (John 8:12)
Furthermore stating that God had sent him.
“I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.” (John 8:18)
If you do not believe that Jesus is the Light of the world whom God has sent you shall die in your sins.
Nothing about believing he was God.
teamventure
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Posting scripture is one thing, believing scripture is another. (See post 88)
You don't believe so you walk in darkness.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
At John 10:30 where Jesus said, the Father and are one. Jesus wasn't saying that he and God were the same person, if that's the point you're trying to make with this scripture.
At John 17:21, 22, he prayed to God that his disciples “may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, . . . that they may be one just as we are one.” Was Jesus praying that all his disciples would become a single entity? No, obviously Jesus was praying that they would be united in thought and purpose, as he and God were.( 1 Corinthians 1:10). This is what Jesus meant when he said, the Father and I are one.
At 1 Corinthians 3:6, 8, Paul says: “I planted, Apollos watered . . . He that plants and he that waters are one.” Paul did not mean that he and Apollos were two persons in one; he meant that they were unified in purpose. The Greek word that Paul used here for “one” (hen) is neuter, literally “one (thing),” indicating oneness in cooperation. It is the same word that Jesus used at John 10:30 to describe his relationship with his Father. It is also the same word that Jesus used at John 17:21, 22. So when he used the word “one” (hen) in these cases, he was talking about unity of thought and purpose.
Regarding John 10:30, John Calvin (who was a Trinitarian) said in the book Commentary on the Gospel According to John: “The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is . . . of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father.”
Right in the context of the verses after John 10:30, Jesus forcefully argued that his words were not a claim to be God. He asked the Jews who wrongly drew that conclusion and wanted to stone him: “Why do you charge me with blasphemy because I, consecrated and sent into the world by the Father, said, ‘I am God’s son’?” (John 10:31-36) No, Jesus didn't claim he was God, but said he was the Son of God. So anyone trying to claim that Jesus is saying he and God are the same person at John 10:30 are not listening to Jesus who said he wasn't God nor was he trying to say he was God he spoke the truth that he is the son of God.
At John 1:18 this scripture isn't saying Jesus is God either. The most reliable manuscripts say Jesus who is the only begotten Son of God, is the only gotten god, at John 1:18. Jesus having a close relationship with his Father, who is God, doesn't mean Jesus is God it means that Jesus has a very close relationship with his Father not that the scriptures are claiming he is the Father.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Greek Kingdom Interlinear....
“9 μηδὲ Neither ἐκπειράζωμεν may we be testing out τὸν the κύριον, Lord, καθώς according as τινες some αὐτῶν of them ἐπείρασαν, tested, καὶ and ὑπὸ by τῶν the ὄφεων serpents ἀπώλλυντο. they were destroying selves.”
Like I said some translate “the Lord” and others use “kyrios”......
At the time Deuteronomy 6:16 was written “the Christ” Jesus did not exist. Anointing was done to set the anointed one on a specific path. Kings in Israel were anointed at their coronation. Prophets were also anointed.
In Hebrews 11:26, Moses is called “the Christ” (anointed one) because he acted as God’s commissioned representative to his people.....so deeming someone as “anointed” was not always referring to Jesus, who was a ”Christ” but not the only “Christ”. A “prophet like Moses” was foretold and the scriptures identify Jesus as that prophet. (Deuteronomy 18:15; Acts 3:22-23; Acts 7:37; John 5:46)
Original word studies fill in details that most people are never taught. They seem to get muddled as if the Greek term “Christ” (Χριστόν or κύριον) always means Jesus.
Before his baptism Jesus was just plain Jesus, known as “the son of Joseph the carpenter”.....it was at his baptism that Jesus became “the Christ”. It was then that he was anointed with Holy Spirit, as his disciples were later at Pentecost.
Can you address the points already covered.....?
"The word was a god"?
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
88
“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” (John 17:20-21)
We are all one with Christ and God. That does not make us God.
This translation is suspect. Let see how the mighty King James Bible renders it:
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” (John 1:18)
That is the tried and true rendering.
Again, we are all one in the Godhead (see above). That does not make us God.
Equal with God as his Christ, the Son of God.
“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)
The word was manifest in Christ. The word didn’t come from himself, but the word of God manifested itself in Christ through his flesh as a living embodiment of God’s person: God doing the works in Christ.
This verse expressly says that Jesus was the Son “from the Father”.
Yes, “I am” as eternally existing with God the Father. Not the “I AM” from the Old Testament.
“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” (John 17:20-21)
We are all one with Christ and God. That does not make us God.
This translation is suspect. Let see how the mighty King James Bible renders it:
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” (John 1:18)
That is the tried and true rendering.
Again, we are all one in the Godhead (see above). That does not make us God.
Equal with God as his Christ, the Son of God.
“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)
The word was manifest in Christ. The word didn’t come from himself, but the word of God manifested itself in Christ through his flesh as a living embodiment of God’s person: God doing the works in Christ.
This verse expressly says that Jesus was the Son “from the Father”.
Yes, “I am” as eternally existing with God the Father. Not the “I AM” from the Old Testament.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
You think I am in darkness because I don’t believe Jesus is God?
Stop imagining what scripture is saying and coming to faulty, unscriptural, conclusions.
“Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.” (John 12:44-46)
I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Therefore I am saved and walk in light and God dwells in me:
“Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:15)
So then, you aren’t hearing me, but only your false doctrine and twisted assumptions.
Therefore you are not hearing Christ:
“He that heareth you heareth me” (Luke 10:16)
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BARNEY BRIGHT
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We have to understand that at Colossians 2: 9-10 where it says, In Jesus all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily, we have to agree with what Colossians 1:19 says which is telling us that it was Jesus Father and God who caused him to have this fullness of the divine quality. This divine quality was given to Jesus by his Father and God.
At Colossians 2:9 the word in the Greek rendered “divine quality” is theotes, and this is the only use of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures. The same is true of a similar Greek word, theiotes, which appears only at Romans 1:20, and which is accurately rendered “Godship,” as follows: “For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.”
The way these two words, theotes(divine quality) and theiotesGodship) have been rendered has given rise to the charge that the translators let their religious beliefs
has given rise to the charge that the translators let their religious beliefs influence them. That charge is true, but they did not do so wrongly, or unduly. The meaning that is to be given to these two Greek words depends upon what the entire Bible has to say about YHWH God and Jesus Christ.
There is basis for translating these words either as “Deity,” “Divinity” or “Godhead” and so attributing personality to them, or as “Divine Nature,” “divine quality,” “Godship,” and having them merely denote qualities. Thus those who believe in the trinity will attach personality to these words, whereas those who do not will render them as qualities in view of the way God and Christ are described in the Scriptures and so as to harmonize the words with the rest of God’s Word.
It's perfectly right in rendering these words the way these translators did is apparent from what Greek authorities have to say about these Greek words. Thus Parkhurst’s A Greek and English Lexicon (1845) defines theiótes as “Godhead” (page 261) and theótes as “Deity, godhead, divine nature” (page 264). Note the definition “divine nature” as well as “Godhead.”
Liddell and Scott’s A Greek-English Lexicon, in its new ninth edition, completed in 1940 and reprinted in 1948, Volume I, defines the two terms in the light of ancient usages apart from the Scriptures. Theiótes it defines as “divine nature, divinity” (page 788). Theótes it defines in exactly the same way, as “divinity, divine nature,” and then cites as an example Colossians 2:9. In this connection it shows that the similar Greek expression, dia theóteta, means “for religious reasons” (page 792).
So the translators are fully justified in rendering Colossians 2:9 to show that Christ has in him all the fullness, not of God himself, the Deity, the Godhead, but of the divine quality dwelling bodily, and this in behalf of the spiritual body of Christ, so that this body of Christ’s followers is possessed of a fullness by means of him: “It is in [Christ] that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily. And so you [Christians] are possessed of a fullness by means of him, who is the head of all government and authority.”(Colossians 2:9, 10)
At Colossians 2:9 the word in the Greek rendered “divine quality” is theotes, and this is the only use of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures. The same is true of a similar Greek word, theiotes, which appears only at Romans 1:20, and which is accurately rendered “Godship,” as follows: “For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable.”
The way these two words, theotes(divine quality) and theiotesGodship) have been rendered has given rise to the charge that the translators let their religious beliefs
has given rise to the charge that the translators let their religious beliefs influence them. That charge is true, but they did not do so wrongly, or unduly. The meaning that is to be given to these two Greek words depends upon what the entire Bible has to say about YHWH God and Jesus Christ.
There is basis for translating these words either as “Deity,” “Divinity” or “Godhead” and so attributing personality to them, or as “Divine Nature,” “divine quality,” “Godship,” and having them merely denote qualities. Thus those who believe in the trinity will attach personality to these words, whereas those who do not will render them as qualities in view of the way God and Christ are described in the Scriptures and so as to harmonize the words with the rest of God’s Word.
It's perfectly right in rendering these words the way these translators did is apparent from what Greek authorities have to say about these Greek words. Thus Parkhurst’s A Greek and English Lexicon (1845) defines theiótes as “Godhead” (page 261) and theótes as “Deity, godhead, divine nature” (page 264). Note the definition “divine nature” as well as “Godhead.”
Liddell and Scott’s A Greek-English Lexicon, in its new ninth edition, completed in 1940 and reprinted in 1948, Volume I, defines the two terms in the light of ancient usages apart from the Scriptures. Theiótes it defines as “divine nature, divinity” (page 788). Theótes it defines in exactly the same way, as “divinity, divine nature,” and then cites as an example Colossians 2:9. In this connection it shows that the similar Greek expression, dia theóteta, means “for religious reasons” (page 792).
So the translators are fully justified in rendering Colossians 2:9 to show that Christ has in him all the fullness, not of God himself, the Deity, the Godhead, but of the divine quality dwelling bodily, and this in behalf of the spiritual body of Christ, so that this body of Christ’s followers is possessed of a fullness by means of him: “It is in [Christ] that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily. And so you [Christians] are possessed of a fullness by means of him, who is the head of all government and authority.”(Colossians 2:9, 10)
teamventure
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You are trying to come up with an explaining away of the obvious context of scripture that says Jesus is God. It has been stated plainly in scripture so that people like you can't say you had an excuse on judgement day.
teamventure
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Knowing all the rebuttals to the obvious context of scripture means that you are that much deeper in darkness.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
So you deny the scripture?:
“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God” (1 John 5:1)
The word of God is my rule in all matters of faith.
Your opinion on the matter means nothing.
“…yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings” (Romans 3:4)
I’m justified in my sayings by scripture.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
At John 5:18 it says, “This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.“
Jesus didn't break the Sabbath just because the Jews(Pharisees) believed Jesus had broken the Sabbath and Jesus wasn't trying to make himself equal with God either just because these Jews (Pharisees) believed he was. After the Jews(Pharisees) accused Jesus of trying to make himself equal with God Jesus said at John 5:19: Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.” So Jesus defended himself against this false charge, by saying what he said to the Jews at John 5:19. Here at John 5:19 by what Jesus said to the Jews Jesus showed them not only was he not trying to make himself equal to God but he was telling them for a fact that he wasn't equal with God. Just as it was those unbelieving Jews, who claimed that Jesus had broke the Sabbath, but were wrong, it was the unbelieving Jews who were wrong about Jesus making himself eual to God.
Jesus didn't break the Sabbath just because the Jews(Pharisees) believed Jesus had broken the Sabbath and Jesus wasn't trying to make himself equal with God either just because these Jews (Pharisees) believed he was. After the Jews(Pharisees) accused Jesus of trying to make himself equal with God Jesus said at John 5:19: Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.” So Jesus defended himself against this false charge, by saying what he said to the Jews at John 5:19. Here at John 5:19 by what Jesus said to the Jews Jesus showed them not only was he not trying to make himself equal to God but he was telling them for a fact that he wasn't equal with God. Just as it was those unbelieving Jews, who claimed that Jesus had broke the Sabbath, but were wrong, it was the unbelieving Jews who were wrong about Jesus making himself eual to God.
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