rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Nope.
You need more verses.
Omission is lowest ground, because you are diminishing Gods word to fit your doctrine.
SMH
Three Raptures
- Thread starter Gordon
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You need more verses.
Omission is lowest ground, because you are diminishing Gods word to fit your doctrine.
SMH
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Your opinion in no way voids Gods word
Just unbelievable the omissions by you to prop up your extra biblical doctrine.
You do not know wat you are talking about.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Whew, what nonsense
Again, omitting verses.
What nonsense
Rev 14 has a GATHERING DURING THE GT. (2 actually)
That makes ,According to your doctrine of omissions, 1 thes 4 a lie, because you have the dead in Christ resurrected AFTER the living are gathered DURING THE GT in rev 14.
Just plain silly and so false.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
You strictly frame this in your error of your doctrine.
Later in rev 7 they are no longer under the alter, but in the general congregation of raptured saints in heaven DURING THE TRIB
WELL,i ALREADY DEBUNKED YOUR FALSE VIEW OF 1 THES 4rev 7
But here is even more:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
HUH????
According to your doctrine they are onLy spirits. But they have bodies, and eat in heaven. OOOPS
But no, the bible again is against you.
PSSSST...one reason we need bodies in heaven is to partake of wine,etc, AT THE WEDDING FEAST IN HEAVEN.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
You strictly frame this in your error of your doctrine.
Later in rev 7 they are no longer under the alter, but in the general congregation of raptured saints in heaven DURING THE TRIB
WELL,i ALREADY DEBUNKED YOUR FALSE VIEW OF 1 THES 4rev 7
But here is even more:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
HUH????
According to your doctrine they are onLy spirits. But they have bodies, and eat in heaven. OOOPS
But no, the bible again is against you.
PSSSST...one reason we need bodies in heaven is to partake of wine,etc, AT THE WEDDING FEAST IN HEAVEN.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
My job is to strictly post what is written IN CONTEXT with the rest of the bible.
You have skipped context in every dynamic of your defense of doctrine.
The verses I am bringing REFUTE DECISIVELY your doctrine.
That is my job.
Report the word.
You can harmonize it.
Or you can go AGAINST the word of God.
That is my job
Your job , sadly, is defending doctrine.
That is why you minimize and reframe the 144k ethnic Jews the bible describes in such detail, one would have to butcher it ,to reframe it.
When we teach the Bible rightly according to it's own words, then it's the Bible. When we teach something else, it's our own opinion.
Blindness to natural Jews, as well as all men, was complete at the cross. (11:32) None of them believed Him, when He said He would rise again on the third day. They were coming to attend to His dead body at the tomb, not to watch Him rise from the dead.
Blindness of natural Jews and all natural men remains in part on earth, because not all men are grafted into God's green olive tree: the Israel of God and body of Christ.
There has been and ever shall be only one Israel of God: those who by faith do the will of our Father in heaven. It was so in the OT, it is in the NT, and shall be during Jesus' reign on earth.
True. All natural Israelites, along with all natural men on earth, shall be saved by Jesus, if they are judged as sheep rather than goats, at the outset of His reign on earth.
They will not include those in the first resurrection of the church at the outset of His coming again.
Why do you have to lie about other people? It doesn't bring you any honor, and only makes your arguments less believable. I've never said such a thing. I have offered instruction on how to be most accurate with the words of the Bible, but I never said I am always doing that. I've been corrected many times, and I'm always glad for it, since knowing the truth of all things Bible is the goal.
The problem is with people that do not even try to correct any point a make to show it is flawed. That's what leads us to think it must be flawless. You're only confessing that you see no flaw in things I've said.
You've said so many times, but never once showed anything I've said to be an unreasonable argument.
All you do is ignore my points, and go on to repeat your own.
Which is fine. We can't force each other to observe honest rules of debate. However, the time is soon coming when you have nothing new to offer, and we'll end it. I don't argue just to argue.
True. And as an aside. Since Gentiles were a growing population in Judea, as they always were in Israel, then there's no proof no Gentiles were invited because of any general hatred for Gentiles. That's especially true if Jesus consented to come.
True. Though any significance of 6 earthen vessels is only allegorical or spiritual thinking on the part of the reader.
Unless of course there is some verse somewhere that makes it significant. Not everything in the Bible has to be 'spiritualized' into meaning something more than it naturally is. That too can be an exhausting intellectual exercise.
I have no clue what you're talking about.
I don't see what making the water wine at a wedding and drinking it has to do with Rev 14. If you have something, I'd be glad to hear it. And because of your highlighting JEWISH WEDDING, I'm sure it will be something all about the Jews.
I've already given plain verses to show that all the pure hearted saints in Christ Jesus, that do His word unto the end, are chaste as virgins following the Lord whithersoever He goeth.
As usual, you ignore it.
All believers in OT and NT, that do not the will of God, were and are adulterous wives and harlots.
So now the gentile church is the bride.
The problem of course is that Jesus Christ does not have a 'Gentile' church, nor 'Jewish' church.
Once again, only unbelief in the specific words and doctrine of the NT, can lead to such misstatements.
I find sometimes, that Christians are just as willing to further the notion that natural Jews by circumcision are still the chosen people of promise in the God of Israel. Such unbelieving Jews do it for natural and national pride, and believing Christians do it for personal interpretation of prophecy.
It does no good at all to tell people, whether Jew or Greek, that today they have some special promise from God, due to who they were born with. It hinders the whosoever gospel of Jesus Christ, and could prevent some being saved and judged righteous at His appearing.
Sounds good.
Ok. That pretty much does it for us. Nothing new here to consider, but just general accusations against those that disagree with you and show why.
If you were ever to actually take any given point of mine, and show in any way how it is a flawed argument, whether pertaining to Scripture or in logical reasoning, then I'd be more than glad to hear it. Unfortunately, you're not useful for that.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Completely false.
You have not accurately addressed the VERSES i posted.
You gloss over it then act like you made some point.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
The declaration over the wedding was " you saved the best for last"
The Jews, as pointed out in the Declaration of the wedding are the last to come in which is Affirmed in Revelation 14 as they are after the "dead in Christ are raised" .They cannot possibly be before the dead in Christ are Resurrected, but you have it exactly opposite , and exactly wrong, that you think somehow after the gathering, during the tribulation ,it is then the resurrection of those that sleep in Christ are erroneously resurrected.which is impossible
IOW IT HAD TO BE THE FIRST MIRACLE.
Clue...first and last are interchangeable in heaven
Since we both believe the other is acting dishonestly in the debate, we can start over one point at a time. We take a specific point from the other, and if we disagree, then address it specifically showing why that point is in error. The other can rebutt the specific challenge.
If you agree, I'll start.
You call Christ's body His 'gentile' church.
I say Jesus has not Gentile nor Jewish church on earth.
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
There are Greeks, Jews, Scythians, bond and free men on earth. But Jesus' church and body is not made up of any such group alone, to the exclusion of others born of the flesh.
Nor does Jesus make any difference in grace and His promises to man, that is in any way based upon natural birth.
Speaking of a 'gentile' church on earth, is not the body of Christ, but is of another church of believers.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Quote by Ghanda
"It does no good at all to tell people, whether Jew or Greek, that today they have some special promise from God, due to who they were born with. It hinders the whosoever gospel of Jesus Christ, and could prevent some being saved and judged righteous at His appearing"
The only way you could make a statement that wild ,is to misunderstand the word "covenant".That's why you can't get anywhere in unpacking God's covenant people versus the Gentile bride, which are also God's covenant people. He has a covenant with the Jews, and it tells you so clearly in Romans 11 that he has not cast them away he has removed them from the tree and they are blinded for a season .
It even says "until the time of the Gentile is completed" I don't know how you could possibly miss that and reframe it into something else. The 144,000 are so explicitly and VIVIDLY ethnic Jews, I can see how you would have a problem with
Talk about outside doctrinal opinion, that alone is red flags how you purposefully reframe it to fit doctrine
SMH
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
YES
IN CHRIST we are all one.
The ENTIRE POINT of the gt is God turning his attention to the Jews to get them to repent.
The church is INDIRECTLY part of the gt.
The Jews are his people.( the rebellious wife)
I know you are against the examples of the OT.
But more than once we see a king go after his wayward wife.
That is the Lord going after the Jews in the tribulation.
The 144k are messianic Jews.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
paul calls it the gentile church in rom 11
I wish you would read rom 11 without the replacement theology
This of course contradicts the faith that the natural Jews were the first to come into the body of Christ. The Gentiles began coming latter.
It also rejects the doctrine of neither Jew nor Greek being any 'better' in Christ than anyone else. It's contrary to the NT Bible that any birth by flesh makes anyone the best Christians.
Natural Jews do not make the best Christians, any more than natural Greeks or Scythians.
Now, if you are trying to say that it will be only Jews entering into Christ's body just before He returns, or at His return, then there is no hint of that in Revelation. There will be two witnesses preaching in Jerusalem, but nothing says they are God's only witnesses on earth. Nor does it say they only witness to Jews, as though Jerusalem at that time will be purged of all non-Jews.
Their dead bodies will be seen by nations, and so it's reasonable to believe their testimony will be also witnessed by nations.
All Christians in the first resurrection of the dead will be after the dead in Christ are raised.
True. No resurrected dead can be resurrected before they are resurrected from the dead.
That's simple logic.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. But if you mean the first resurrection of the church is at the time of the Lord's descent from heaven into the air, then that is true.
At that point all tribulation and wrath of man upon the righteous and just Christians will cease, because they will all be taken out of the way.
Then begins the tribulation and wrath of the Lamb upon the earth, until He descends from the air to slaughter all the armies gathered around Armaggeddon in Judea.
Yes. The Bible says that was the first miracle made by Jesus on earth.
What? There souls are interchangeable? They swap immortal bodies after the first resurrection?
I don't go by men's definitions of words that God uses in the Bible. I go by His definition of man's word by their use in His doctrine.
And the old covenant with Abraham's natural seed by outward circumcision is now dead.
It's error to try and interpret prophecy without NT doctrine, and twice as bad to try and teach NT doctrine and law from the Old covenant.
Once again. Christ has no gentile nor jewish bride, body, nor church.
Those clinging to the old covenant, rather than let it lie dead, are continuing to bring division into the body of Christ, whether Greek or Jew.
Had. (Heb 8) He nailed it to the tree along with the law of Moses.
You are Judaizing the church in order to teach your own prophecy.
True. The first saved apostles and disciples of Christ were natural Jews. Natural Jews are still being saved, and shall be unto the end of this age at second coming of Jesus.
Part of the reason God blinded all natural Israel, was so He could end the old covenant with the death of His Son, and bring in the new covenant with all flesh, whether Gentile or Jew.
The fullness of this time for all flesh to be grafted into His olive tree, whether Jew or Greek, will be at His return and the first resurrection of all His church of saints in the OT and the new.
It's impossible for Jesus to only resurrect 'gentiles', because it's impossible for His people to be only gentiles. The Jews were the first Christians, and they will be among the last alive and remaining at His coming again.
Already corrected this enough, with no challenge to any point of my argument from you.
God's attention is still on the Jews as at the first, including all mankind. His wrath will be upon all mankind, that are not risen to meet Him in the air.
God does not have any respect of persons today after the flesh. He convicts all sinners alike, and saves all repenting believers alike.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
This is one of the main reason the hereditary Jews so hated Jesus, because He was letting them know the time of their natural seed having any promise with God was coming to an end.
The baptist foreshadowed the same thing:
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
The church is the center of the gt and wrath of the beast upon the righteous saints. That is until they are taken out of the way to meet Him in the air at His return.
If the natural Jews are still His people, then outward circumcision is His covenant.
Judaizing.
I am against preaching the OT alongside the New, which perverts the New by the Old.
And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
The King has been doing so since His resurrection, including all wayward mankind.
Respect for the flesh is not the doctrine of Christ. Respect for Jews after the flesh is Judaizing the church.
The beast is going after Christians, and then the Lord is going after all left on earth.
They are Christians sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. In Rev 14 they are resurrected Christians.
The only place I read of 'Messianic Jews' is in the books and prophecies of man's will, not of the Bible.
Last edited:
You call it the gentile church. No Bible ever speaks of a gentile nor jewish church and body of Jesus Christ.
You insert you own will into the Bible to make it say something it does not.
Both Gentiles and Jews are coming into the church the same way by faith and obedience to God. Once in the church of Christ, they are no more gentile nor jew, but Christian.
Christian is now the name for the people of God on earth. Not Hebrew, Israeli, nor Jew. The children of Abraham with promise of Christ are now called Christians by God.
Respect for the flesh of jewish heritage divides the body of Christ into gentiles and jews. Such dividers don't see only Christians, but still see gentiles vs jews, even as the unbelieving jews still do.
I wholly reject your Judaizing division of the body of Christ.
For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
For one saith I am of gentiles; and another I am of jews; ye are carnal.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Sounds like u got it all figured out.
You refuted nothing I posted.
Nothing
You reframed every concept I brought forward.
SMH
Similar threads
