Timing of the abomination of desolation

[n2thelight]

Just look at that big body of fire. How would you like to be cast alive into that thing?
PS and don't forget that earthquake at the end there. It's mentioned in several verses in the Bible.

The desolation is not a condition,, rather a person

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

In the translation, "the desolate", it is a person, and should be translated "desolator". That desolator is the Antichrist. and is Satan himself. It is not a king in Europe, or the middle east, for Satan is the "star" that fell to the earth in Revelation 9:1, and he will be given the key, or the authority to the bottomless pit.

When the seventh trump sounds, the seventy weeks of years are over, and you will face the Lord Jesus Christ, either as a happy bride [the church], or in shame for chasing after the Antichrist.

 

[Timtofly]

You're the one that doesn't 'get it', because the Olivet discourse where Jesus told those in Judea to flee is CONNECTED TO THE "ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION" IDOL event, in the Book of Daniel! And that event did NOT happen in 70 A.D. by the Romans! So you claiming the 3.5 years prophecy that is for the END that Jesus pointed to and in the Book of Daniel, shows YOUR CLAIM TO MEN'S LEAVEN DOCTRINES OF PRETERISM, A FALSE DOCTRINE.

The 3.5 years is not in Josephus' writings. It is not in Mark. It is not in Luke. It is not in Matthew, and it is not even in Daniel 9. So stop making a Preterist point yourself. It is only in your mind that these passages are about preterism.

 

[Timtofly]

Tell the Judean Christians.

Do you have the quote from Josephus declaring these as Judean Christians? If not, why do you make stuff up to prove a false point?

You seem to be arguing strictly from a historist theological view point, pitting one theology against another. You do not even use Scripture to interpret Scripture. This tactic is worse than arguing points from Scripture.

You assume that those who fled were just Christians, if not then just point out the point in Scripture instead of labeling points that you have no proof ever even happened. You really are assuming more than any one else here. In fact calling them Judean Christians is also being dispensational futurist. You are assuming a new dispensation happened changing Judea into a place of Christians. No Scripture states Judea turned into an area of Christianity.

Matthew 24:15-16 is not a prophecy stating Judean Christians would flee, so there are no literal Judean Christians to even ask or make a point with. Your point is an assumption made up in your imagination, unless you actually have historical proof.

These verses were not simply prophetic. It was a conditional warning to any one living in Judea under a certain criteria. There is not a single record of historical fact that this criteria has been met. Since you claim you are not preterist but historist, before you can honestly argue with presumption, you should at least be able to produce your historical source.

As pointed out, historically some fled when they saw the armies. No one fled in 70AD. They all died. The historical point of fleeing literally had nothing to do with 70AD, period. Proof by association is not proof. Luke is the only one who mentioned anything in regards to any historical proof. And Josephus evidently at some point had access to what Luke wrote. That is a reasonable assumption. At least from those actual quotes given by Josephus.

 

[covenantee]

Do you have the quote from Josephus declaring these as Judean Christians? If not, why do you make stuff up to prove a false point?

You seem to be arguing strictly from a historist theological view point, pitting one theology against another. You do not even use Scripture to interpret Scripture. This tactic is worse than arguing points from Scripture.

You assume that those who fled were just Christians, if not then just point out the point in Scripture instead of labeling points that you have no proof ever even happened. You really are assuming more than any one else here. In fact calling them Judean Christians is also being dispensational futurist. You are assuming a new dispensation happened changing Judea into a place of Christians. No Scripture states Judea turned into an area of Christianity.

Matthew 24:15-16 is not a prophecy stating Judean Christians would flee, so there are no literal Judean Christians to even ask or make a point with. Your point is an assumption made up in your imagination, unless you actually have historical proof.

These verses were not simply prophetic. It was a conditional warning to any one living in Judea under a certain criteria. There is not a single record of historical fact that this criteria has been met. Since you claim you are not preterist but historist, before you can honestly argue with presumption, you should at least be able to produce your historical source.

As pointed out, historically some fled when they saw the armies. No one fled in 70AD. They all died. The historical point of fleeing literally had nothing to do with 70AD, period. Proof by association is not proof. Luke is the only one who mentioned anything in regards to any historical proof. And Josephus evidently at some point had access to what Luke wrote. That is a reasonable assumption. At least from those actual quotes given by Josephus.

I have at no time said anything about Josephus in connection with the Judean Christians' flight.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Keraz]

I have at no time said anything about Josephus in connection with the Judean Christians' flight.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

The problem is that you have not much idea of what you are trying to promote.
There is the fact of the Judean Christians escaping the Romans, before 70 AD when General Titus conquered Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed. Josephus describes this.
This partially fulfilled the prophesies Jesus gave in Matthew 24, but most remains unfulfilled. To happen in the forthcoming end times.

 

[covenantee]

The problem is that you have not much idea of what you are trying to promote.
There is the fact of the Judean Christians escaping the Romans, before 70 AD when General Titus conquered Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed. Josephus describes this.
This partially fulfilled the prophesies Jesus gave in Matthew 24, but most remains unfulfilled. To happen in the forthcoming end times.

You promote unfulfillment.

I don't.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You promote unfulfillment.

I don't.

Neither do I, though I haven't been following this thread. The Church Fathers believed that the AoD of Dan 9.26-27 was fulfilled in the generation of Jesus. The Roman Army took their stand in the "holy place," which was the environs of Jerusalem--not the room in the temple.

Jesus warned people to flee as soon as they heard word of the approaching desolating army. They began to do this in 66 AD, having plenty of time to plan.

But Jesus also warned the time would come when people would have to flee immediately, not even looking back. Since he was speaking of 70 AD, it's very clear to me that Jewish believers continued to flee up until 70 AD.

It at that time was too late to escape for those trapped inside Jerusalem. But people in the fields still could run for the hills.

None of this had a thing to do with the last days. It was merely the "last days" for Israel under the old temple system. And it was at that time their greatest persecution/tribulation began, when they were carted off into exile. It was to last, according to Jesus, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[covenantee]

Neither do I, though I haven't been following this thread. The Church Fathers believed that the AoD of Dan 9.26-27 was fulfilled in the generation of Jesus. The Roman Army took their stand in the "holy place," which was the environs of Jerusalem--not the room in the temple.

Jesus warned people to flee as soon as they heard word of the approaching desolating army. They began to do this in 66 AD, having plenty of time to plan.

But Jesus also warned the time would come when people would have to flee immediately, not even looking back. Since he was speaking of 70 AD, it's very clear to me that Jewish believers continued to flee up until 70 AD.

It at that time was too late to escape for those trapped inside Jerusalem. But people in the fields still could run for the hills.

None of this had a thing to do with the last days. It was merely the "last days" for Israel under the old temple system. And it was at that time their greatest persecution/tribulation began, when they were carted off into exile. It was to last, according to Jesus, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Amen brother.

Fulfillment is anathema to futurism, as it exposes futurism's fantasies, fallacies, and failures.

Futurism's utter irrationality regarding Matthew 24 is on full display in the posts of this thread.

But the Scripture cannot be broken. (John 10:35)

The word "unfulfilled" is nonexistent in the entirety thereof.

 

[Marty fox]

This is a section of my Matthew chapter 24 study

Mt 24:15-16
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
When you (This generation) see the abomination that causes desolation. Spoken of through the prophet Daniel.(let the reader understand) then let those in Judea flee to the mountains. (The next verse from Luke ties into this verse.)

Luke 21:20

20When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies you know its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains let those in the city get out and let those in the country not enter the city.

(This shows that these verses are the same moments in 70 AD not in our future)

Josephus in his account of the fall of Jerusalem wrote, "The city and the temple were filled with the dead bodies (from the civil war happening inside the city). Into the sacred untrodden precincts they poured armed to the teeth with their hand dripping with blood of there fellow countrymen." They suspended the daily sacrifices because of the fighting and the Romans were disgusted by how the Jews profaned their holy ground. Titus said to them," you disgusting people why are you trampling dead bodies in your Temple. I do not believe there is a God watching over you now I compel you not to desecrate your Temple." If you change your battle ground no Roman will go near it or insult it".

The Jews desecrated their own Temple but not by pigs blood as Daniel was prophesied about Antiochus IV Epiphanies in 167BC but this time it was the corpses of Pharisees.

The Roman armies and what was happening in the temple were the abomination which caused desolation. When the Roman armies first surrounded Jerusalem and withdrew the Christians fled the area not one Christian was killed in the siege. When Jesus died the temple veil was torn into two from the top to the bottom. God tore the veil into two. The Jews rejected and killed there Messiah and they didn't recognize who Jesus was because he wasn't who they thought the Messiah would be they thought the Messiah would kick out the Romans. This then set up the abomination that caused desolation. Isaiah 66 states that God saw the Jews sacrifices as an abomination. Only the rejection of Jesus' death can cause it to happen as that was the final sacrifice that was needed to take place to pay for our sins.

Mt 24:17-18
17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.
Do not hesitate leave at once.

Mt 24:19
19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!

Josephus wrote in his account that Mary daughter of Eleazar became so hungry and filled with fury at the looters she took her baby boy and said, "poor little mite why should I save you for slavery if we live come be my food" and she cooked and ate half of her baby to spite the looters. It was the only time the looters and partisans shrunk away quivering from anything. News got out to Titus and he was so disgusted by this abomination and how they desecrated their own Temple that he said he would not let a city that did these things to remain on the earth for the sun to look upon.

Mt 24: 20
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

When Jesus mentioned the Sabbath he was speaking to the generation who were still under the Sabbath law. The Sabbath wouldn't mater to gentiles in the distant future. Back in the first century the gates of Jerusalem were closed on the Sabbath. Jesus was saying that if this happened on the sabbath the saints wouldn't of been able to leave the city before it was too late.

Mt 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

This was the worse time in Jewish history, God abandoned them and their city was destroyed and about eleven out of twelve people were killed.

Mt 24: 22
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

The 97000 prisoners could be some of the elect. They may have realized that Jesus was the Christ, as his prediction would prove his divinity and many of them were taken to other nations and may have spread the gospel. (this next verse from Luke also ties into this verse)

Luke Ch 21:24
24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This is the same section or time line in Mt Ch 24

Telling us Jesus is still talking about the siege of Jerusalem.

Mt 24:23-26
23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

Josephus wrote that during the siege false prophets were told by the party chiefs to deceive the people to reduce the number of deserters. They told the people that God had promised them deliverance and that God commanded them to go up to the temple area to receive the sign of their deliverance in the last surviving colonnade. When the Romans in their fury found them they set ablaze to the colonnade and not one out of the 6000 people (mostly women and children) survived.

Mt 24:27
27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Jesus coming will be like lightning in the sky it will be sudden. When the Romans broke into the temple in their fury they didn’t stop, not even Titus could stop them they just kept killing and destroying everyone and everything in their path.

Mt 24:28
28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

There were dead bodies every where.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Amen brother.

Fulfillment is anathema to futurism, as it exposes futurism's fantasies, fallacies, and failures.

Futurism's utter irrationality regarding Matthew 24 is on full display in the posts of this thread.

But the Scripture cannot be broken. (John 10:35)

The word "unfulfilled" is nonexistent in the entirety thereof.

Well, I'm very happy we agree on that much. But you would be surprised to learn that I view myself still as a "futurist." I just don't tow the line of many Dispensationalists, who believe the Rapture will take place at any moment, and come up with all kinds of scenarios without any sense of what our calling is presently as Christians.

God will wrap up this age in any way He sees fit. Our speculating about it, as interesting as that may seem, will not change anything. We are here to be like Christ, the best we can, and to model his love for the world.

Again, I'm happy we share some of these beliefs in common. Cheers.

 

[covenantee]

This is a section of my Matthew chapter 24 study

Mt 24:15-16
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
When you (This generation) see the abomination that causes desolation. Spoken of through the prophet Daniel.(let the reader understand) then let those in Judea flee to the mountains. (The next verse from Luke ties into this verse.)

Luke 21:20

20When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies you know its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains let those in the city get out and let those in the country not enter the city.

(This shows that these verses are the same moments in 70 AD not in our future)

Josephus in his account of the fall of Jerusalem wrote, "The city and the temple were filled with the dead bodies (from the civil war happening inside the city). Into the sacred untrodden precincts they poured armed to the teeth with their hand dripping with blood of there fellow countrymen." They suspended the daily sacrifices because of the fighting and the Romans were disgusted by how the Jews profaned their holy ground. Titus said to them," you disgusting people why are you trampling dead bodies in your Temple. I do not believe there is a God watching over you now I compel you not to desecrate your Temple." If you change your battle ground no Roman will go near it or insult it".

The Jews desecrated their own Temple but not by pigs blood as Daniel was prophesied about Antiochus IV Epiphanies in 167BC but this time it was the corpses of Pharisees.

The Roman armies and what was happening in the temple were the abomination which caused desolation. When the Roman armies first surrounded Jerusalem and withdrew the Christians fled the area not one Christian was killed in the siege. When Jesus died the temple veil was torn into two from the top to the bottom. God tore the veil into two. The Jews rejected and killed there Messiah and they didn't recognize who Jesus was because he wasn't who they thought the Messiah would be they thought the Messiah would kick out the Romans. This then set up the abomination that caused desolation. Isaiah 66 states that God saw the Jews sacrifices as an abomination. Only the rejection of Jesus' death can cause it to happen as that was the final sacrifice that was needed to take place to pay for our sins.

Mt 24:17-18
17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.
Do not hesitate leave at once.

Mt 24:19
19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!

Josephus wrote in his account that Mary daughter of Eleazar became so hungry and filled with fury at the looters she took her baby boy and said, "poor little mite why should I save you for slavery if we live come be my food" and she cooked and ate half of her baby to spite the looters. It was the only time the looters and partisans shrunk away quivering from anything. News got out to Titus and he was so disgusted by this abomination and how they desecrated their own Temple that he said he would not let a city that did these things to remain on the earth for the sun to look upon.

Mt 24: 20
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

When Jesus mentioned the Sabbath he was speaking to the generation who were still under the Sabbath law. The Sabbath wouldn't mater to gentiles in the distant future. Back in the first century the gates of Jerusalem were closed on the Sabbath. Jesus was saying that if this happened on the sabbath the saints wouldn't of been able to leave the city before it was too late.

Mt 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

This was the worse time in Jewish history, God abandoned them and their city was destroyed and about eleven out of twelve people were killed.

Mt 24: 22
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

The 97000 prisoners could be some of the elect. They may have realized that Jesus was the Christ, as his prediction would prove his divinity and many of them were taken to other nations and may have spread the gospel. (this next verse from Luke also ties into this verse)

Luke Ch 21:24
24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This is the same section or time line in Mt Ch 24

Telling us Jesus is still talking about the siege of Jerusalem.

Mt 24:23-26
23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

Josephus wrote that during the siege false prophets were told by the party chiefs to deceive the people to reduce the number of deserters. They told the people that God had promised them deliverance and that God commanded them to go up to the temple area to receive the sign of their deliverance in the last surviving colonnade. When the Romans in their fury found them they set ablaze to the colonnade and not one out of the 6000 people (mostly women and children) survived.

Mt 24:27
27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Jesus coming will be like lightning in the sky it will be sudden. When the Romans broke into the temple in their fury they didn’t stop, not even Titus could stop them they just kept killing and destroying everyone and everything in their path.

Mt 24:28
28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

There were dead bodies every where.

The elect in the NT refer to the followers of Christ (Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; et al). The Judean Christians were the elect who fled to the mountains. If the conflict had continued unabated, it would eventually have reached and consumed them and the entire population (Matthew 24:22). For the elect Judean Christians' sake, God shortened those days.

 

[ewq1938]

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Obviously this didn't happen in the past because the end hasn't arrived. This is a special time when the gospel will be heard throughout the entire planet at the same time. I believe this is also a reference to that:

Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Compare the next two passages:

Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The elect in the NT refer to the followers of Christ (Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; et al). The Judean Christians were the elect who fled to the mountains. If the conflict had continued unabated, it would eventually have reached and consumed them and the entire population (Matthew 24:22). For the elect Judean Christians' sake, God shortened those days.

Jesus was speaking, in his Olivet Discourse, in the time of the Old Covenant. As such, he had to have been speaking of Jewish believers. Ultimately, we know that what happened in Israel became a pattern for Christian nations to follow. Christian nations would be born, would backslide, and then be judged--just like Israel. Christians would the salt of the earth, keeping the hope of those nations alive.

But the salvation of the elect Christians in Israel were specifically Jews, when Jesus mentioned "the elect," because he was promising the preservation of the Israeli nation. The word "elect" can be applied strictly to Jewish believers, or it can speak generally of all believers. The context determines how the word is being applied.

 

[Timtofly]

I have at no time said anything about Josephus in connection with the Judean Christians' flight.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Then how do you know it happened? You are not claiming to just make up the notion in your head, are you? Because if you are just arguing imagination against actual Scripture, what is the point really?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Obviously this didn't happen in the past because the end hasn't arrived. This is a special time when the gospel will be heard throughout the entire planet at the same time. I believe this is also a reference to that:

Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Compare the next two passages:

Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Yes, the vast amount of this happened in Jesus' generation. That's where Jesus established among the Jewish believers a model for Christians in all nations. The end happens after the age of evangelization, which takes place prior to Israel's purification at Christ's coming.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, the vast amount of this happened in Jesus' generation.

None of the events in the Olivet Discourse have yet happened except possibly some of the sorrows which are pre-tribulation events.

 

[Timtofly]

Neither do I, though I haven't been following this thread. The Church Fathers believed that the AoD of Dan 9.26-27 was fulfilled in the generation of Jesus. The Roman Army took their stand in the "holy place," which was the environs of Jerusalem--not the room in the temple.

Jesus warned people to flee as soon as they heard word of the approaching desolating army. They began to do this in 66 AD, having plenty of time to plan.

But Jesus also warned the time would come when people would have to flee immediately, not even looking back. Since he was speaking of 70 AD, it's very clear to me that Jewish believers continued to flee up until 70 AD.

It at that time was too late to escape for those trapped inside Jerusalem. But people in the fields still could run for the hills.

None of this had a thing to do with the last days. It was merely the "last days" for Israel under the old temple system. And it was at that time their greatest persecution/tribulation began, when they were carted off into exile. It was to last, according to Jesus, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

And this is all speculation. No one knows if people kept fleeing for 3+ years. People had no reason to flee after 66AD. In fact many still came from all over the earth to Jerusalem the next 3 years, each year for the Passover celebration. Most of the people trapped in Jerusalem in 70AD were from out of town, and never escaped. They were devout OT Law observers. There was no AoD in 70AD period. In fact nothing happened specifically in 70AD that was mentioned in the OD, that had not been ongoing for years.

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."

The only reason we even know this happened was because of Josephus. Josephus made the claim many fled. Those armies left in 66AD. Titus came back in 70AD. He was not camped outside of Jerusalem for 3 years. 70AD was a totally different attack. More than likely no one was left to flee. Life had gone on as normal. People still came each year for the Passover, not for an Easter celebration. Those concerned about Easter were not around for any Passover. Those coming for the Passover would not flee on the warnings of a failed alledged Messiah. Why would Christians return if desolation could happen at any moment after they had already fled once?

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

This was an ongoing phenomenon. It was not a one time event in 70AD.

Yes Jesus said "all this" would be destroyed. Jesus said that at the temple itself, not in private during the OD. 70AD was horrible. But Rome and the rebellion had been going on for years. Titus never had a chance to set up an AoD and make the place utter desolation and still hold authority within the Holy place over the Jews. That is what an AoD is all about. Not a proximity alert of some foreign dignitary and his armies.

Many may not know this, but even Pilate himself was accused of the Jews as setting up the AoD way before the Cross and 30AD. Pilate agreed to take them down. So this point was not lost on those hearing words from the OD. Many today, unfortunately have the wrong concept of the AoD, especially the one in the OD. If 70AD is one's metric of fulfillment, that metric had been ongoing for over 100 years before 70AD. 70AD was nothing special in that regard.

 

[Randy Kluth]

None of the events in the Olivet Discourse have yet happened except possibly some of the sorrows which are pre-tribulation events.

Jesus directly referenced his Apostles/Disciples when giving this Address, and informed them of what would happen to *them.* To say none of that applies to them when Jesus addressed them as "you" seems careless?

And quite frankly, you compared the Olivet Discourse with an earlier passage that Jesus gave directly to his Apostles about their future experiences. To say none of this yet happened, when they lived a long time ago, seems absurd. I don't get your logic?

When you referred to Matt 10, for example, you quoted, "they will deliver you up and scourge you in their synagogues." Are you really saying this didn't happen?

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus directly referenced his Apostles/Disciples when giving this Address, and informed them of what would happen to *them.*

Only shadows and types would be what they experienced but the actual events were not to happen for a very long time. We are still waiting.

To say none of that applies to them when Jesus addressed them as "you" seems careless?

No.

And quite frankly, you compared the Olivet Discourse with an earlier passage that Jesus gave directly to his Apostles about their future experiences. To say none of this yet happened, when they lived a long time ago, seems absurd. I don't get your logic?

Types and shadows but I compared the two passages because of how similar the language is. The gospel will be shared globally and then the end happens, not happens thousands of years later.

When you referred to Matt 10, for example, you quoted, "they will deliver you up and scourge you in their synagogues." Are you really saying this didn't happen?

Who of the 11 were scourged in Jewish synagogues?

 

[Davy]

The 3.5 years is not in Josephus' writings. It is not in Mark. It is not in Luke. It is not in Matthew, and it is not even in Daniel 9. So stop making a Preterist point yourself. It is only in your mind that these passages are about preterism.

The events for the end described in the Book of Daniel are all connected about the very end just prior to Christ's future return. Only someone who is determined to DENY God's written Word would refuse to see it.

Dan 7:24-27
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, Whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
KJV

Dan 12:6-7
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
KJV

Dan 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
KJV

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

Half of that symbolic "one week" of 7 years equals 1260 days, or 3.5 years, or 42 months, or a time, times, and half a time.


Dan 8:9-14
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV

Dan 11:21-24
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
KJV

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

That's Daniel 8, 9, 11, and 12 that prophesy about the false one coming to setup the "abomination of desolation" which Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13, and YOU say none of those Scriptures are related???

YOU are NOT to be trusted with God's Word.