To church or not to church

[Dcopymope]

imo the answer lies in the way we define "can't give real answers to their questions," which will be different for one who...well, for everyone, basically, but loosely speaking will be different for someone looking for logical answers, facts or proof, v someone seeking truth

When an unbeliever asks you about why we are here, and why the fall had to occur, he is asking for a logical answer within the confines of your faith. That is the proof he is lookingg for, not something that can be observed under a microscope. This is what many Christians find difficult to answer, even though they for some reason will in the same breath claim to "know God".

 

[bbyrd009]

he is asking for a logical answer within the confines of your faith.

then he is screwed lol, because you can't find God that way

 

[Dcopymope]

then he is screwed lol, because you can't find God that way

Its not about "finding God", its about understanding the overall, overarching profound reason of why God allowed events to occur, why they are occurring, and why events will occur a certain way. Its about understanding why Satan even exists, why he allowed the fall to occur, and why Jesus Christ was necessary in the first place, or why we needed a savior. Christians usually give half basked responses to these questions, because they never even gave any of it a thought.

 

[bbyrd009]

then he is screwed lol, because you can't find God that way

k i better rephrase here, lest i be guilty of the same sin as those i am tryna show lol, of course you can find God that way, the heirs all start out under the servants; someone in that perspective just needs to go find an Oracle, right, someone who can tell them "this means that, and that is this," which we got a forum full of right. Ezackly how i started too, works great!

 

[bbyrd009]

Its not about "finding God", its about understanding the overall, overarching profound reason of why God allowed events to occur, why they are occurring, and why events will occur a certain way. Its about understanding why Satan even exists, why he allowed the fall to occur, and why Jesus Christ was necessary in the first place, or why we needed a savior. Christians usually give half basked responses to these questions, because they never even gave any of it a thought.

nice. imo they give logical responses, bc they have not changed their minds yet, but imo it isn't really fair to say that none of them theys up there have never given it any thought, ezackly, right; even if that does describe some, or even many

 

[Dcopymope]

nice. imo they give logical responses, bc they have not changed their minds yet, but imo it isn't really fair to say that none of them theys up there have never given it any thought, ezackly, right; even if that does describe some, or even many

Well here is the deal, if the response doesn't include the following, then its not a real answer:

1. Understanding why and how Satan fell from glory.

2. Understanding what sin is, how and why it exists, and the key to understanding this is in knowing why the tree that caused sin to enter the world was called the knowledge of good and evil.

3. Understanding why God chose his son, the word made flesh as the atonement for our sins before he even started the six day creation.

This will answer all of the typical questions usually received from atheists and such. Basically, just like the fall occurred in heaven, so to was it going to happen on earth no matter what happened in the garden. Even if Adam and Eve never ate the tree giving them the knowledge of sin, sin itself was going to crop up somewhere eventually regardless. If angels can fall into iniquity even though they are pure spirit beings, "made perfect in their ways", then it was only a matter of time for the same thing to happen to humanity. God knew this from the beginning, he knew all the possible scenarios and saw that the fall was going to be the only outcome, and that's why he determined that his only begotten son will be the atonement. The way I see it, this is the ONLY real answer you can give them. It makes his death and resurrection more profound than we can imagine, more profound than anything ever will.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well here is the deal, if the response doesn't include the following, then its not a real answer:

1. Understanding why and how Satan fell from glory.

2. Understanding what sin is, how and why it exists, and the key to understanding this is in knowing why the tree that caused sin to enter the world was called the knowledge of good and evil.

3. Understanding why God chose his son, the word made flesh as the atonement for our sins before he even started the six day creation.

This will answer all of the typical questions usually received from atheists and such. Basically, just like the fall occurred in heaven, so to was it going to happen on earth no matter what happened in the garden. Even if Adam and Eve never ate the tree giving them the knowledge of sin, sin itself was going to crop up somewhere eventually regardless. If angels can fall into iniquity even though they are pure spirit beings, "made perfect in their ways", then it was only a matter of time for the same thing to happen to humanity. God knew this from the beginning, he knew all the possible scenarios and saw that the fall was going to be the only outcome, and that's why he determined that his only begotten son will be the atonement. The way I see it, this is the ONLY real answer you can give them. It makes his death and resurrection more profound than we can imagine, more profound than anything ever will.

XXXXX

great observations, i needa be fresh for this one, so then, then ok
(i need to go be "absent from the body" now)

 

[mjrhealth]

Yeah sure, I understand where you are coming, but I find people who speak like you, claiming to know God, claiming to have spoken with him or something to that effect, yet even they have just as tough a time asking the tougher philosophical questions concerning their faith that unbelievers often ask as someone who is actually honest who says they know about him, or of him. These are the same questions that even one such believer asked on this site, that no one could answer convincingly except me. I'm not naming names, but afer having that little conversation, it told me all I needed to know about the sorry state the whole body of Christ is really in, not just those who go to church. That little conversation was a shining example of why many smart unbelievers who ask these questions see's the faith as a joke.

I very much agree, and teh only thing we have to judge them, by is there fruit, is it not, though sometimes that spirit within us can get prompted, YEs that thing called religion has made a mockery off God, cant wait till He shows its ugly face to teh world for all to see, when our eyes are opened and all is revealed.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well here is the deal, if the response doesn't include the following, then its not a real answer:

ha well by your leave, then lol

1. Understanding why and how Satan fell from glory.

2. Understanding what sin is, how and why it exists, and the key to understanding this is in knowing why the tree that caused sin to enter the world was called the knowledge of good and evil.

3. Understanding why God chose his son, the word made flesh as the atonement for our sins before he even started the six day creation.

This will answer all of the typical questions usually received from atheists and such.

ah. i just tell them i don't know, usually; at least once they have revealed that!

Even if Adam and Eve never ate the tree giving them the knowledge of sin, sin itself was going to crop up somewhere eventually regardless.

hmm. absent the knowledge afforded by the act, how, do you imagine that being possible?

If angels can fall into iniquity even though they are pure spirit beings, "made perfect in their ways", then it was only a matter of time for the same thing to happen to humanity.

hmm. this jars with my sense of...well, timing at least, "humanity" seems to be made contemporary with the (real) Fall here, i had understood that we came later, well, after the Fall to be precise, but i can still agree with the premise, sure

God knew this from the beginning, he knew all the possible scenarios and saw that the fall was going to be the only outcome

what Fall? Can you quote me a verse for this one? ty
not looking for proof, even a v that alludes or intimates works for me
iow where, from Scripture, did you learn the Fall of Man

The way I see it, this is the ONLY real answer you can give them.

you could refuse to say a word, or answer with questions, all depending upon your mood and their...hearing, if you wanted to. You don't owe anyone any answers iow; particularly if they are asking Lawyer Questions

 

[bbyrd009]

cant wait till He shows its ugly face to teh world for all to see

boy, if the OT culminating in 70ad won't do it, what will lol

 

[Dcopymope]

what Fall? Can you quote me a verse for this one? ty
not looking for proof, even a v that alludes or intimates works for me
iow where, from Scripture, did you learn the Fall of Man

By the fall, I am referring to the fall into iniquity which without Jesus Christ would have led every single soul to its condemnation knowing that what happened in the garden was inevitable whether there was a tree or not. By condemnation, I am referring to the lake of fire judgement, because that's what being saved is all about. You see, most Christians can speak at length all damn day about being saved by the blood of Jesus yet they can't even tell you what you are being saved from. Their complete disregard of Revelation, their unwillingness to understand the very book that spells out the future for them has a lot to do with this. It is inexcusable, because it leads to half baked doctrines, to the typical twisted spiel unbelievers get from Christians, that all who don't believe, even those who never could have possibly heard the gospel, automatically gets tossed in the lake of fire, which is NOT true and only makes God out to be a despot. Being saved is not just about not getting tossed into the fire, its about not being in danger of that ever happening to you to begin with, and this is what the overwhelming majority of Christians miss about what it means to have salvation in Jesus Christ.

(Romans 5:12-19) "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: {13} (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. {14} Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. {15} But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. {16} And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. {17} For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) {18} Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. {19} For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

(1 Corinthians 11:31-34) "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. {32} But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. {33} Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. {34} And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

(John 3:14-18) "¶ And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: {15} That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. {16} ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. {17} For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. {18} ¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

You see, what you need to understand from versus like this, is that from God's vantage point, the world was already condemned before he even started the six day creation, because like I said, the fall was bound to happen no matter what, sooner or later. It gives even more profound meaning to versus such as this.

(Revelation 17:8) "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

 

[bbyrd009]

Well here is the deal, if the response doesn't include the following, then its not a real answer:

1. Understanding why and how Satan fell from glory.

2. Understanding what sin is, how and why it exists, and the key to understanding this is in knowing why the tree that caused sin to enter the world was called the knowledge of good and evil.

3. Understanding why God chose his son, the word made flesh as the atonement for our sins before he even started the six day creation.

ok, so, Atheists are just Fundies who hate religion rather than loving it, at least in my book, and plenty of others have made the same observation, so, proceeding from that understanding, and accepting your premises here, imo it should first be realized that you can't tell someone who knows everything anything, so voila you are basically done, unless you can respond with the proper questions, which will open the door.

Now, from there, see that you are equ...you have the terminology that a Fundie will accept, but of course to an Atheist you will just be SiT and shutting the door again. So from there, see that all of the terms in your premises up there are translatable to IRL, to whit (off the top of my head here ok, i have given this part no thought whatsoever yet)

1. Understanding why and how people are not at rest, even though their dog is likely happy as a lark; ego, iow, should do
2. Understanding what making mistakes is, and how and why they exist, and how hard it can be for some ones to apologize for a mistake, no matter how they identify. The tree thing i would stay away from, unless/until you get that "tree" has symbolic meaning, as defined by Scripture; as does "Eating, drinking" etc. It was called "Knowledge" bc ego again, imo, or briefly, bc a child can be shown that this sowing reaps that, even though he is going to verify it a couple of times, and prolly keep checking it, bc after all parents are liars, basically, and kids are not stupid. It was called Tree of Knowledge because that was the fruit of eating from it; i think i repeat this lower from a diff angle

Conversely, a dog cannot be shown that this reaps that, even though you can train one to do this or that, doesn't mean that they will ever understand or agree, just that they have made the association. Iow if you ring a bell and don't bring food often enough, they will eventually de-condition and stop drooling whenever you ring a bell. The dog has no knowledge iow; it cannot make choices from information, or, since there is a sense in which they can, a better way to say that is a dog cannot change its mind about anything; it acts in its own interests, all of the time, even when it appears to be altruistic. A diff animal would provide better examples here
3. Understanding why those who would not care to hear about your understanding of God's Son might still be accepted, if they can merely confess, unto salvation, but transcribe the salvation part. "i was wrong" is really all it takes. We religify confession, and remove it to our churches (arm of government {501c3}, de facto courtrooms)(great place to learn Law) but confession is just "I was wrong, I'm sorry, what can i do now." which even an Atheist can appreciate, right

"why the tree that caused sin to enter the world was called the knowledge of good and evil."
bc that was what was reaped from eating of that tree, see. When you Biblically "know" another species in resistance to God's Instructions to animals, that we observe other animals rigidly adhering to, all other animals, you get hybrids, and in the case of the most evolved ones, you get frontal lobes, let's say, oh no duh it's the little pinecone deal, the kidney i think--and an ego--a separate "you"--to go with the eating; you get "knowledge of good and evil."

Of course the tree did not cause sin to enter, the eating of it did, and you likely do not accept my version of events here, but i made them up anyway, so make your own then, but see that we still have in our idiom/folk knowledge what Eve did, which was get tempted by a "snake" to (Biblically) "know..." something, that was tasty to her, and caused (her, her progeny, whatever) her to "know," or "become intimate with," sin, iow feelings of guilt and shame come from getting a pinecone, too, that she never had to worry about before. and prolly the frontal lobes helped. free will is a great and terrible force to unleash

so, the point here is to use this as a possible model to converse with Atheists, if you were sincerely asking anyway lol. might help to remember that God divorced a whole nation of religious ppl and then sent them away rightthen the kingdom will be taken from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of itiow if you are trying to 'convert' this Atheist imo you are wasting your time, if all you really need to do is understand (forgive) himpeace

 

[bbyrd009]

Their complete disregard of Revelation, their unwillingness to understand the very book that spells out the future for them has a lot to do with this.

i was more or less nodding my head til here, not sure how this has come to be your pov, seems to me an obsession w/many ppl, at least "too." And if there is any functional disregard, imo it is bc The Rev is easy to misinterp, hard to associate with self, etc?

plus @ "spells out future for them," while i cannot disagree in one sense, i can't help but feel that when i say "just like it spelled out the future for someone in...1400ad, that is now in our past," you would likely object?

It is inexcusable, because it leads to half baked doctrines, to the typical twisted spiel unbelievers get from Christians, that all who don't believe, even those who never could have possibly heard the gospel, automatically gets tossed in the lake of fire, which is NOT true and only makes God out to be a despot.

ya, you can't interp The Rev right from a legal pov lol, or that's what happens i guess. Of course we perceive this as a like a crime, or a bad thing, but after all you have seen through it, as have many, countless others; so imo the interp of It is better perceived as a tool for seeing ppl, and judging them becomes a tool for seeing yourself.

because of course no one quails @ "Good News!"

Being saved is not just about not getting tossed into the fire,

a terrible pov, yes lol

its about not being in danger of that ever happening to you to begin with,

hmm, imo this is a chimera, even if it might appear to be encouraged in the Book

and this is what the overwhelming majority of Christians miss about what it means to have salvation in Jesus Christ.

ergo they are made plain to you then; and your reaction is what you will be judged for, i guess. It is only too easy to feel superior, or judgemental, etc, right

 

[bbyrd009]

from God's vantage point, the world was already condemned before he even started the six day creation

hmm, Not condemned is the first thing i see there lol

the fall was bound to happen

arg lol. We deem it a fall--but cannot quote that Anywhere--and the Book deems it Becoming like God. right? lol

 

[mjrhealth]

Fundies who hate religion rather than loving i

I hate . despise religion yet I am a Christian who loves Christ, can you blame them for despising religion, cant think of one reason why I would love it...

Their complete disregard of Revelation

The proble is . revelation was just that a revelation, understanding given to John, it is not yours, it is not mine , God gave it to Him, if one thinks he can understand it by reading and studying it, well more foolish things have being done. If one asks God and He reveals it to them, than all well and good, but there are no shortcuts in Wisdom or understanding which comes from God..

 

[bbyrd009]

I hate . despise religion yet I am a Christian who loves Christ, can you blame them for despising religion, cant think of one reason why I would love it...

well, one has to find and follow the law some way or other, i guess, even those under Grace. Of course those under Grace are under an even more...responsive? responsible? demanding? ya, demanding dispensation, bc we know law fails, but that does not mean that law is evil, just inadequate. Grace is built upon Law, Grace fulfills Law, does not negate it

you could be characterized as having a law, that you espouse in your posts; as you have been told many times, right? And don't get me wrong, it isn't the worst law bam, as laws go

 

[bbyrd009]

if one thinks he can understand it by reading and studying it, well more foolish things have being done.

?
Grace provides the interpretation, and Scripture defines all of the symbology; not saying that i get it all, bam
Oh, i forget you reject the Book though...um, ya. wait, more foolish things have been done? lol, ok.
you seem to be arguing against yourself there, guess i'm lost lol

 

[bbyrd009]

If one asks God and He reveals it to them, than all well and good

ha fwiw those revs always seem to come to me via God's Left Hand, not that they were not effective lol. eventually. but then i never got patted on the head as a kid, i guess lol

 

[Dcopymope]

The proble is . revelation was just that a revelation, understanding given to John, it is not yours, it is not mine , God gave it to Him, if one thinks he can understand it by reading and studying it, well more foolish things have being done. If one asks God and He reveals it to them, than all well and good, but there are no shortcuts in Wisdom or understanding which comes from God..

Yes, more foolish things have been done indeed, like never bothering to study it in depth at all, or dismissing it all as "allegory".

 

[mjrhealth]

Yes, more foolish things have been done indeed, like never bothering to study it in depth at all, or dismissing it all as "allegory".

Study it all you like, without revelation from God, you will never understand it, thats why it is called revelation.