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Tongues

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Behold, Jan 11, 2022.

  1. Curtis

    Curtis Well-Known Member

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    Once again you show your ignorance

    First of all, prophecy is a better gift to use in church, but so what?

    Paul also outlines the use of tongues in the church assembly, told the church he wanted them all to speak in tongues, and told them to forbid NOT speaking in tongues, not to mention you missed the qualifier Paul put on it when he said prophesy was a better gift to use in church meetings:

    1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.

    Every spirit filled believer can speak in unknown tongues, but interpretation of unknown tongues is a separate gift that not every believer has.

    Paul wrote that a message from a prophecy is better in church meetings than tongues UNLESS THE UNKNOWN TONGUE IS INTERPRETED.

    You missed that little fact.

    Prophecy is a message from god to a congregation spoken in the native tongue of the person speaking the message, which is understood by the congregation, without interpretation, so that’s better than an unknown tongue that’s not understood UNLESS one with the gift of interpreting it does so and the message in an unknown tongue is revealed to all.

    Paul correctly said that IN CHURCH it’s much better to speak known words from a prophecy than unknown words, but so what?

    You’re using that fact as if it means tongues are an unimportant gift, forgetting that it’s a gift to be used frequently at home.

    Paul said everyone should speak in tongues, and said he spoke in tongues more than anyone, and told the church not to forbid them, as apparently they had before his letter to them on spiritual gifts straightened them out.
     
  2. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Was formerly Presbyterian but not representing any denominations now but the Lord Jesus Christ, Lord be willing. I thank Him for that.

    It is Who the churches and the Holy Spirit, and scriptures are supposed to be representing anyway as believers are to be disciples of Jesus Christ, not the Church in seeking her glory and not the Holy Spirit in seeking His glory but the Son in seeking His glory ( John 15:26-27 & John 16:14 ).

    Like I had asked, would the Holy Spirit break the Lord's commandment by manifesting tongues in women or even to prophesy or to teach?

    1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

    1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    I'd say no.

    It cannot be blasphemy when we recognize what the Holy Spirit will not do in according to the scripture.

    The Lord can use women in outreach ministry, but not in the church. In churches that compromises in having women elders & deacons, I had heard enough complaints from the women about how they have to do everything. I hear the complaint about the home life too. So no.

    If women recognize their roles to where the Lord would use them at; outward ministry like fellowship, social functions, missionary outreach, eating out, having Bible studies in their homes as well as fellowship, & prayer meetings, visitations of the elderly and home bound, the sick in the hospital or at home, by engaging church members through out the week, maybe, just maybe, church's attendance would not be declining, but increasing.

    And maybe the elders & deacons will be more active in ministry in the church rather than letting the pastor do it all.

    Do note how 1 Timothy 2:11-13 as displayed above n this post is before this edification about the office of elders & deacons.

    1 Timothy 3:1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

    8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
     
  3. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Yet, were you not applying that verse as meaning that person speaking in tongues was speaking mysteries unto God?

    That is why you need to ask Jesus if you are reading that right & in context of what Paul was saying in that message for why he was exhorting believers that seek spiritual gift, to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts.

    Paul began to compare prophesy with tongues for why the gift of prophesy is better because tongues is not a stand alone gift for why it will come with interpretation through another for the tongue speaker to understand it for that tongue to be fruitful even to himself.
     
  4. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Your teaching is that women cannot even prophecy in church?
     
  5. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    No such word as "unknown" in the 1 Corinthians 14 chapter. That means you're using the phrase "unknown tongue" is a misnomer, a fluke.

    Here is the result of speaking of so-called 'unknown' tongues, an example that even some level-minded Charismatics are concerned about...



    Along with that is uncontrollable laughing, uncontrollable shaking or vibrating, uncontrollable throwing of the body, uncontrollable making animal noises... etc., etc., ALL... manifestations that happen in Eastern pagan religions which they call the 'Kundalini spirit'.

    Now if those manifestations were truly... of The Holy Spirit via Christ Jesus, then what in the world are they doing showing up ALSO in those Eastern religions????

    I even researched the falling backwards manifestation when those kind of Churches claim faith healings, and the ONLY one's I could find written of in all of God's Word were those of Christ's enemies. Like when the soldiers the Pharisees sent to arrest Lord Jesus, they asked who He was, and when He told them, they all FELL BACKWARDS.
     
  6. Lambano

    Lambano Well-Known Member

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    Son, Jesus displayed the power of God before the Pharisees, and they couldn't see it because it wasn't what they expected to see. My friend testifies to the seeing the power of God displayed, and I laid it before you - and you couldn't see it because it wasn't what you expected to see.

    Jesus testifies that He is Lord of the Sabbath. He is sovereign and can heal on the Sabbath. He is also Lord of the Sunday Worship Service, and can display His sovereign power through anyone He pleases.

    I know what it's like to be blind to the power of God. Please don't be blind to the power that can heal you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
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  7. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    If I may, I've noticed you doing this quite a lot, and you might wanna slow down a bit on your writing style and write for a little better clarity. You have this way of stringing 5, 6, and even 7 or more clauses together using the word "for" to create these monstrous run on sentences that go on forever, Lol.

    Not making fun in a mean way, just pointing out that you might want to address that. It tends to cloud the meaning of what you are trying to say.
     
  8. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

    I should have included verse 13 for our discussion.

    The only reason some had thought they were drunk, because some were not understanding some of the foreign languages they were hearing around them even though those around them did. Why say it to mock? When you have His disciples, almost 120, not just 12, speaking in tongues that day, you will get a mixed report like that.

    Say.. you know Egyptian & Hebrew as a devout visiting Jew from Egypt, but even though you hear a few of them speak in Egyptian, not every one of them were speaking in Egyptian for why a bystander may mock, missing the ones that were speaking in Egyptians for why he was saying they are drunk because he dies not understand any by him at all.

    That is the truth in His words for aligning all the truth in His words in seeing that bigger picture with His help.
     
  9. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    And there... it is brethren in Christ, misplaced faith on miracles INSTEAD OF HEEDING God's Word as written...

    Matt 24:24
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    KJV

    Rev 13:13-14
    13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

    14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
    KJV

    2 Thess 2:8-11
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    KJV

    Lord Jesus and His Apostles specifically WARNED us about these times at the end, and how Satan's servants will be working signs and wonders, and some think 'we' are supposed to RELY on those signs and wonders to recognize The True Christ??? That is not... what God's Word tells us how to be in the last days, especially because God is going to send the coming Antichrist-false-Messiah and false prophets that WILL be working those great signs and wonders here on earth!

    Therefore, those 'relying' on those signs and wonders are in deep, deep, trouble spiritually, and don't even know it! But that's their fault for not 'staying' in God's written Word like Apostle Paul showed there, not having a love of the Truth. Those... are who that "strong delusion" is for in the last days!
     
  10. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Davy, there are all sorts of problems with this interpretation.

    For one, the passage says he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets:

    14 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

    Now if prophesying is referring to teaching here, and the one who interprets tongues is greater than the one who teaches, where is that doctrine supported in scripture? Moreover, why would they have been speaking in tongues on Pentecost and not "prophesying," i.e. teaching

    Secondly, if prophesying is referring to teaching and not supernaturally revealing men's hearts, then what is the following passage referring to?

    But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

    Thirdly, if prophesying is referring to teaching, then that would classify all who teach as being "prophets," since the text states:

    29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

    If teachers are not to be distinguished from prophets, then how did they distinguish between a prophet and a teacher?
     
  11. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    I have to step out, but again for clarification: Your teaching is that women cannot even prophecy in church?
     
  12. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    If you were not there, you should take pause to your friend testimony and discern why she even bothered to share it.

    Plus, why are you referring to that event by defending it as Jesus displaying power?

    What need for that to happen? How were they edified? What was the interpretation?

    What gets me is that for such a manifestation, the interpretation of those tongues were not mentioned. I would think if that was of God, then I would be reporting what was interpreted for why that manifestation had to come by tongues and then interpretation.

    So all that happened as fulfilled as claimed by her was showing off what she deemed was the Holy Spirit and yet not why or what for?

    That to me is exalting the supernatural phenomenon rather than Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit puts the spotlight on Jesus Christ to glorify Him ( John 16:14 ) for why I have to wonder why the woman and you are putting the spotlight on the phenomenon which nary a mention of the edification that would be exalting Jesus Christ?? I mean think about it. If such a manifestation had occurred, what was the message that was so important to the church to have received for that to never happen again?

    But no. This was about "the Holy Spirit is going to do something to the church" and all the glory was on the Holy Spirit for doing that.

    And scripture was used for discernment for why I do not believe that was really of the Holy Spirit because the woman spoke in tongues too.

    Which is why I had to doubt the interpretation was really being done there as some do wing it in how they interpret gibberish nonsense.

    We all had received power when we got born again. There is no more need for receiving power again and again and again, for He is in us always.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Since He and that power has been received since salvation, we "put on" Jesus Christ and the power to live as His when we apply our faith in Jesus Christ to help us to follow Him or for serving Him in ministry. It is not done by seeking a supernatural phenomenon.

    For everyone that is serving Him in ministry here in the forum, are you experiencing a supernatural phenomenon as you type & post?

    If you know by experience that the Lord has used you in ministry without it, then why would you think you need it now?

    I have had several scary supernatural experiences; the devil even, and Jesus rescued me without giving the appearance of visiting the room to do it when He was in me and still is, for how He helped me in those dire times of need.

    Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. since scripture & the real indwelling holy Spirit would always keep the focus on Jesus Christ and it is the spirit of the antichrist that would take the eyes of the believers off of Jesus Christ even for a moment, is why saved believers should not be looking for such display of power by visitation but on the Bridegroom because He will be coming soon. John 5:22-23
     
  13. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    But yet all the hype is on tongues for private use to seek after by having another baptism with the Holy Ghost? This is an apostate calling.

    Not really, because you are affirming what I have been saying all along that tongues is not for private use because the real God's gift of tongues would come with interpretation; see?

    I believe in the real God's gift of tongues as speaking unto the people.

    It is because there is such a thing as pagan supernatural tongues which was in the world before Pentecost came and still is, that is just gibberish nonsense ( Isaiah 8:19 ) is why I do not believe that tongues for private use is of Him at all.

    Tongues for private use has been linked to that apostate calling of seeking another baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues. That tongue will never come with interpretation because it is not a foreign language of men at all, therefore not the real God's gift of tongues.

    There can be n partiality in this because how can sinners know they have departed from those spirits & that kind of tongues when they come to Christian church if the church did the same thing? How can a church know if sinners had departed from those spirits & that tongue if they speak in gibberish nonsense as the church does? Is God the author of confusion? No, and yet we are called to prove everything and abstain from all appearances of evil.

    So that would be tough to do if a church assumes tongues can ALSO be for private use because it is not coming with interpretation.
     
  14. TEXBOW

    TEXBOW Well-Known Member

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    Curtis, I've added to your post how I think some understand things differently (not correcting you but providing a different view that some take). This is always been the challenge regarding (tongues / languages). Understanding the difference in an Angelic supernatural tongue and known and unknown languages in the world at that time. It would certainly be a gift to person commissioned to take the Gospel to the world if the Holy Spirit gives them the gift to speak to people in their native languages. I myself struggle in the separation of language and tongue in the scriptures. I can easily understand how some would see both ways. I'm not dogmatic about it but I do feel strongly that the extreme behavior in some Charismatic Churches is not Biblical. IMHO some discount the gifts too much and others elevate the gifts too much. Some ignore it and others make it the center piece of their doctrine. IMHO both camps are in error. Satan throws everything he can at us.

    I do not believe that the gifts ceased after the 1 century. They are revenant today. Not every manifestation is truly a gift of the Holy Spirit. Many have walked away from God because someone told them if they do not speak in an unknown tongue they are not saved. God will judge. The scriptures gives us many examples of those who were saved without any evidence of spiritual gifts. I do not understand how some Churches have all emphasis on tongues or healings and the full word of God never reaches many in these Churches. Every sermon is from an evangelist trying to save the choir over and over again. They I think are much like the Church of Ephesus, they have abandoned the more important things.
     
  15. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Only in outward ministry; not in the church. That is what the scriptures says; they are not allowed to even teach.
     
  16. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Ok, then was Anna the prophetess in sin when she prophesied over Christ in the temple?

    25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, 28 he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:

    29 “Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,
    According to Your word;
    30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation
    31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,
    32 A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles,
    And the glory of Your people Israel.”
    33 And Joseph and His mother marveled at those things which were spoken of Him. 34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against 35 (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

    36 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; 37 and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem. (Luke 2:25-38)
     
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  17. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Thank you for sharing but I should highlight something in your reference as proving what she was in the Temple for.

    37 and this woman was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

    Not with preaching or teaching. She was serving God with fasting & praying.

    It is verse 38 that needs discerning.

    38 And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.


    I read this as when she comes in the Temple in that instant to give thanks to the Lord, but the latter half of that verse in aligning with other scriptures, would have me apply it to mean outside the Temple, in the city of Jerusalem for all those that come looking for redemption in Jerusalem.

    Otherwise why not have it written in this way "38 And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in the Temple."? which would be contrary wise to rest of the scriptures. So I believe the reference to being 'Jerusalem" is key.


     
  18. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    No, I have posted what I believe and what I have experienced many times on forums including this one over the years with regard to tongues. I do not know all of the answers. Only God does. God increases people when He does.

    As to my personal testimonies..., that is what they are. I won't argue about them.

    Be blessed in the things of God!
     
  19. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

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    IOW, you believe that there is nothing supernatural about the Gifts of the Spirit. Davy, that is quite an erroneous theory.
     
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  20. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    This assumes she spoke to no one in that moment, however. What would she be giving thanks to God about "in that moment," if not that the Messiah had been born?
     
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