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Featured Trinity vs. Tritheism

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Everything you've said so far is meaningless unless you can show One Person called God present instead of two persons called God present.

    On the Mount of tranfiguration

    “While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said: This is My beloved Son. I take delight in Him. Listen to Him! When the disciples heard it, they fell facedown and were terrified. Then Jesus came up, touched them, and said, “Get up; don’t be afraid.”” (Matthew 17:5–7) (HCSB)

    “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.” (2 Peter 1:16–18) (KJV 1900)

    Jesus' Baptism

    “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16–17) (KJV 1900)

    And: At Sodom and Gomorrah

    “Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;” (Genesis 19:24) (KJV 1900)
     
  2. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    You still cannot explain these passages which prove all that you've said so far is not accurate. What about another of similar import?

    “Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;” (Genesis 19:24) (KJV 1900)
     
  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    But, what about my question? God speaking to God on the Mount? or this of similar import.

    “Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;” (Genesis 19:24) (KJV 1900)
     
  4. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    The name is only used to identify your beliefs. Which were condemned several times as heresy in the early Church.
     
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    It's what I'm asking you. And you cannot interpret the passages without proving everything else you said is without scriptural support. Here it is again for all to read. How many persons called God?

    “While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said: This is My beloved Son. I take delight in Him. Listen to Him! When the disciples heard it, they fell facedown and were terrified. Then Jesus came up, touched them, and said, “Get up; don’t be afraid.”” (Matthew 17:5–7) (HCSB)

    “For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.” (2 Peter 1:16–18) (KJV 1900)

    Jesus' Baptism

    “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:16–17) (KJV 1900)

    And;
    “Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;” (Genesis 19:24) (KJV 1900)
     
  6. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    You say it as if it were an insult. If it is not where God wants me, it is. If it is where God wants me, it is not. You don't even know the truth of it. You are simply insisting on pressing your belief onto others. Jesus never did that. God never did that.

    I don't think of God at all in terms of persons. Did you not read the verse I cited above in Numbers 23:19 stating that God is not a man? Why do you insist on making Him into something He never claimed to be..?
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I have shown it...apparently it escaped your notice.

    There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

    Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; even one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Mat 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    Luk 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.


    1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    Rom 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    So then, because it is not meaningless, I require you to answer the following, @Dave L:

    "This has been adequately answered as far as I'm concerned...if you are blind to the reality of the answer then I cannot help you except to pray that God will heal you of your spiritual blindness and open your eyes.

    How many Gods/Lords are present at Jesus' baptism? You have not yet answered this question with a specific number.

    My answer would be, that the Bible teaches that there is one God, even one Lord, present at Jesus' baptism. So if you have a different answer, speak up; and also give biblical support for your answer.

    My biblical support: there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); even one God (Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

    1 Corinthians 8:6 also presents a problem for you. There is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. If Jesus is not God the Father, then He is a Lord separate from God the Father. And therefore He is not God: because there is one God and one Lord. In order for Jesus, the one Lord, to be God, He has to be the one God, who is defined as the Father in 1 Corinthians 8:6 (and Ephesians 4:6).

    Jehovah's Witnesses use 1 Corinthians 8:6 in their contention that Jesus isn't God. The answer to them is that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth (Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21); and therefore the one Lord Jesus Christ is God the Father.

    I would suggest looking up these scriptures and thinking about how these concepts apply.

    I would also mention that the Greek word for and is kai, which can be translated as even."

    original post:

    Trinity II
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  9. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The Person who inhabiteth eternity

    Isa 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.


    is the same Person who descended to become the Son of man.

    Eph 4:9, (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    Eph 4:10, He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    .
    .
    .
    The same Spirit, the same Lord, the same God:

    1Co 12:4, Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

    1Co 12:5, And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

    1Co 12:6, And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  10. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    and? what about it?

    diversity covers that perfectly, the LORD and the Lord present .... and?
     
  11. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Okay.
    Perhaps you are unaware, "my Way" is "according to Gods WAY".

    Okay.
    Perhaps you are unaware, "my Understanding" is "according to Gods UNDERSTANDING"

    One of my all time favorite verses.
    And not once have I indicated "my way, my understanding" IS NOT, "according TO" Gods Way, Gods Understanding".
    Which IS "precisely" according to Gods WILL.

    Men HAVE FREEWILL....to choose to learn and know Gods WILL, and take upon themselves "HIS WILL" or not.

    I have been very clear of my declaration of Conversion. By default...that discloses...
    Gods WILL, is my will.
    Gods WAY, is my way.
    God UNDERSTANDING, is my understanding.

    How you want to word it or how I want to word it does not diminish the fact...

    Two parties are involved....
    God Who reveals His WILL, His WAY, and His UNDERSTANDING.....and the individual who chooses to ACCEPT His WILL, His WAY, His UNDERSTANDING

    You said you have no will...but that it is Gods Will.
    I say, I have freewill and chose to accept Gods Will as my own.

    Worded differently, end result the same.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  12. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    first thanks for the reply, second, then say it. for JESUS is the only way.
    see above.... ;)
     
  13. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Look, I have no problem verifying with Scripture what I SAY.

    You want to quote something I HAVE SAID and You can not find that in Scripture...ASK.

    You have said something, and I DO NOT FIND WHAT YOU SAID IN SCRIPTURE....and have ASKED YOU TO PROVIDE THE SCRIPTURE.

    We both know you have NOT done that.

    You grabbing random scriptures and demanding I provide for you the meaning, is not my obligation. God provides the Understanding, Ask Him.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  14. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    the doctrine of the trinity holds the Father is not the Son, but are two separate and distinct Persons. let's put this to the test since no taker on Isaiah 44:24 and John 1:3.

    Jeremiah 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

    Now this,

    Revelation 2:23 "And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    this is almost word for word, but here's the difference. in Jeremiah 17:10 it's the "LORD", all caps....
    but in Revelation it's the "Lord", only the "L" is capitalized.

    ok what are we saying? in Jeremiah 17:10 it's the "LORD", the one whom many calls Father, but in Revelation it's the one whom many calls the son.

    well someone might say "both are God". Oh yea, then you have two Gods.... because each said "I" which is a, a, a, a, singel individual. so by being "I" and you say it's two then one has two Gods.

    or, someone might say "both the Father and the Son is all Knowing". if so, then you have two all knowing Gods, and if separate, you'll still be in the same barrell of two all knowing Gods. and that will be polytheistic by definition

    so would any would like to reconcile Jeremiah 17:10 and Revelation 2:23
     
  15. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Preaching to the choir.
     
  16. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    I have answered, but I'm about clarity,
    God speaking to God? who said that? let's see if this is true.

    Matthew 17:1 "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

    Matthew 17:2 "And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

    Matthew 17:3 "And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

    Matthew 17:4 "Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

    Matthew 17:5 "While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.


    ok, lets count
    #1. Jesus in verse 1
    #2. the Voice of ???? in the cloud, not from heaven, but OUT of the cloud
    that's only one? and how do we know that's it one for sure?, for we have corroborating evidence here in this case,

    Exhibit A.
    2 Peter 1:16 "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
    2 Peter 1:17 "For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    here we have a "VOICE" from the excellent glory. ok, is this the VOICE of God?, lets see,


    Exhibit B. while we're in 2 Peter 1, let's see what or who the voice belong to? verse 18 "And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

    ok, in this verse eye witness Peter, now an apostle, said the voice "CAME FROM HEAVEN".

    but in Matthews it said the voice came "OUT OF THE CLOUD". so, which one is it? do the bible condridict itself? of course not. deductive reasoning to discover the truth that's in plain sight is simple. the voice spoke
    out of the cloud, but the voice of the message came from HEAVEN. understand, the source of the message originated "from "the voice in Heaven, which is God, but spoken out of the cloud here on EARTH by "a" voice. as the bible say, don't add or take away from the word.

    Remember, John 5:37 "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me.
    Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape". ANYTIME? is not the account of matthews and Peter is a TIME?. it just said, but the voice came FROM THE EXECELLENT GLORY in Heaven, but Spoken "OUT" of the cloud.

    do either Matthews or Peter's accounts states that the voice spoke is God actual voice? no. so say what the bible say. so why are you saing so?.

    let's see this again in another scripture,

    John 12:27 "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
    John 12:28 "Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
    John 12:29 "The people therefore, that stood by,
    and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

    John 12:30 "Jesus answered and said,
    This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes".
    HOLD IT, "This voice?". why did the Lord Jesus say "This Voice", don't he recognize the voice? why not say "my Father" Voice came..... well. if the Lord Jesus don't say, why are you saying?

    EVEN so we have precedent by the Scriptures that a angel has spoken on God the Father behalf, even we will not certify that here, because it simply don't say, nor will we.

    so dave, you have only one standing on the mount of transfiguration, unless you have another mountian in mind. or you count Moses and Elias as Gods ....... :D even that want work.

    see how we made it very plain.

    so, don't "followed cunningly devised fables" by man, as 2 Peter 1:16 states :cool:


    so that has been disprove.

    PICJAG.
     
  17. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Isa 41:[4] Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

    John 8: 24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    John 10:30 I and my father are one.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  18. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    boy they sound Good.....

    but no more tit fot tat.... lets stay on the Word of God.

    PICJAG.
     
  19. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Good I like that, let's take this a little futher,
    Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

    John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    100% Taken you're Born again.......

    PICJAG.
     
  20. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    ^5 Amen
     
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