TribulationSigns
Active Member
Do you honestly believe that the unbelieving "Jews" understand "Christian" Eschatology without Christ - the very prince that Daniel 9:24-27 spoke of?! You are as blind as them.
Typical questions people ask about the Olivet Discourse.
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Do you honestly believe that the unbelieving "Jews" understand "Christian" Eschatology without Christ - the very prince that Daniel 9:24-27 spoke of?! You are as blind as them.
Fantasized in modernist Darby/Scofield/Jesuit delusionism as the Antichrist. Not in historic orthodox Christian eschatology.
Why didn't you ask him what Talmudism is?
Or don't you yourself know?
The Talmud is a compilation of Jewish rabbi's opinions on a number of subjects. Not worth the time to dig into.
The Talmud is the most vital manuscript of conventional Judaism.
Maybe you should make time.
Jesus refers to it:
Mark 7
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Follow you own advice, if you think studying the Talmud is beneficiary. I don't.
As for me, I already have over 10,000 posts at Jewish sites, since 2004, gaining information directly from them of what they believe. Which has given me unique perspective in understanding eschatology that most Christians do not have.
For example, in your by line about Darby/Scofield/Jesuit origin of futurism, which of them have wrote that the Jews believe that the messiah will be anointed the King of Israel by a "known prophet" ?
Jesus was/is the Messiah who was to come.
Instead of "breaks," I refer to them as milestones. A milestone is a noteworthy moment during a given time period. The time period remains uninterrupted by any of the milestones. God gave Israel 490 years to complete certain tasks, but they failed, leading to God's judgment against them.
I agree. Gabriel never explicitly mentioned Stephen or any other person who would mark the end of the 490 years. But, if you pardon my delay, I would like to explain more in my commentary below.
According to Gabriel, 490 years were allotted to Daniel's people to accomplish the following items: to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. Gabriel then predicts that Israel will fail to complete all these tasks in the allotted time, describing the final seven years.
Daniel 9:26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
after the sixty-two weeks
Gabriel doesn't mean to indicate the "day" after the sixty-two weeks. He means to say, "the final week after the sixty-two weeks, which is the seventieth week. Sometime during week 70, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing.
and have nothing
Presumably, Gabriel is speaking from the standpoint of the "Daniel 9:24 project." The Messiah would be cut off, i.e., put to death, and have nothing to offer the people in support of Israel's assigned task. (We know, from NT teaching that the blood of Christ would inaugurate the New Covenant.)
the prince who is to come
The Messiah is the prince who is to come, verse 25
the people of the prince
Some text witnesses have the following reading which makes more sense to me; “the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed with the coming prince.” "The coming prince was Jesus the Messiah. Not only will he be crucified, but also the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed. In other words, the cutting off of the Messiah will be the crime that leads to the destruction of the city and the sanctuary."
Daniel 9:27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”
a firm covenant
Rather than strengthening the Old Covenant, the purpose of the Messiah was to establish a firm covenant with God, which Jesus called "the New Covenant." Luke 22:20
for one week
Jesus' ministry lasted for about 3-1/2 years as he worked to establish the "firm covenant" (New Covenant). His crucifixion inaugurated the "firm covenant", which took place in the middle of week 70. After the allotted time of the "Daniel 9:24 Project" had expired, which I speculate was the Stoning of Stephen, the Lord called Saul, changing his name to "Paul", assigning him the role of Apostle to the Gentiles.
middle of the week
This refers to week 70, during which the Messiah was "cut off".
put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering
As Jesus said, his blood would inaugurate a New Covenant. Justification by faith in Jesus Christ replaces in a more profound and complete way, the sacrifice and grain offerings.
wing of abominations
The Hebrew term translated as "wing" carries the meaning of "extremity, edge, or boundary." In my understanding, Gabriel is referring to the "limit" of abominations, which was the ultimate transgression - the crucifixion of the Messiah - that resulted in the devastation and destruction of the city and the sanctuary.
one who makes desolate
Titus and the Roman army made Jerusalem desolate. He and his men came upon it like a flood.
What to believe?
1. Messiah the Prince, who confirmed the covenant, is the Christ.
or
2. Messiah the Prince, who confirmed the covenant, is the Antichrist.
Who needs a hint?
Acts 13
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew Him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning Him.
Paul doesn't share your affinity for "they that dwell at Jerusalem".
Gaining information of what the Jews believe doesn't mean that I agree with them.
I can't figure that logic out either, that Jews that reject Christ, who don't even believe He is the Messiah to begin with, who don't believe the NT is also holy writ, are somehow then going to heed His warnings in Matthew 24, thus begin believing the NT is holy writ after all, the moment they see the AOD in the future, that they are then going to flee to the mountains. Sounds like something that might fit a Twilight Zone episode, but not something that might fit reality, though.
Even though the AOD is indeed involving the end of this age, it is not meaning in a literal sense involving a rebuilt temple in literal Jerusalem involving literal mountains one will be fleeing to. Especially unbelieving Jews who reject both Christ and the NT entirely.
The beliefs of those who reject Christ are at enmity with the beliefs of those who are in Christ.
Soliciting the former is a waste of time for any Christian.
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Scripture interprets Scripture and identifies the AOD in Luke 21:20.
It was the Roman armies.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
If you want to talk about Luke and 70AD that is one thing, but Luke 21 is not about the future AoD.
If you want to remain in Matthew 24, then there is nothing in that chapter about 70AD, but a future AoD.
The witnesses' time and the time of 42 months in Revelation 13 are all talking about the same period of time. The witnesses do not start witnessing unless the 42 months start in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet does not sound for 7 years.
If you conclude the 7th Trumpet sounds for 7 years, that would put the Second Coming and rapture at the start of this 7 year period.
The 7th Trumpet last for a week of days. At the mid point of those days is when the Covenant is confirmed. Only at that point in time will we know if time is extended for 42 months, or if the week finishes, and the Millennium Kingdom starts a week after the 7th Trumpet stars sounding.
The first 6 Trumpets were over before Revelation 10 starts. In Revelation 10 we have 7 Thunders. Then John starts talking about the events of the 7th Trumpet. The 2 witnesses are events of the 7th Trumpet, not anything prior, during the Thunders and other Trumpets.
Daniel 9 is talking about the Jews destroying their own way of life. That was fulfilled in 70AD. The AoD is still future after the Second Coming.
Tim, here is a table I made about the Olivet discourse verses. Luke 21 as a parallel is included. The verses can be divided up into "near term" , "long term", "end times "
Just pick a chapter, either Matthew 24, Mark 13, or Luke 21 and start following the table left to right - looking at the verses themselves as you go. I think you will find this table very helpful.
No, the two witnesses time of 1260 days is the first half. After they are gone, the beast-king reigns the following 42 months.
The 7th trumpet announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth - which is Satan cast down to earth, the woe found in the text of Revelation 12:12.
the two witnesses > then the 42 months begin > then the 7th trumpet sounds > the time,times, half time left to Satan..
1260 days > 3 1/2 days > then 1256 1/2 days, called 42 months, containing the time, times, half time = 2520 days (the 7 years)
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Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
The days ( beginning with the 7th trumpet sounding) is the time, times, half time. The mystery of God is the ending of Satan and his angels damage to God's creation. The time of judgement will have come for...and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Revelation 11:18.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
1. Messiah the Prince, who confirmed the covenant, is the Christ.
or
2. Messiah the Prince, who confirmed the covenant, is the Antichrist.
Who needs a hint?
How was the covenant confirmed or strengthened? Hint:
Heb 9:14-17
(14) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
(17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
The covenant or testament is like an inheritance. It awaits Christ, the prince, to die in order for covenant to become a force. It is an everlasting covenant Messiah the Prince and His people, Israel. Not 7 years peace treaty.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
No, sorry, you do not have a true (and correct) understanding of Eschatology. You are brainwashed by premillennialism doctrines thinking that God has unfinished business with Jews in the Middle East.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
As you know I have a problem with this while knowing it is part of Preterism doctrines. When the Jews asked for a "SIGN" and in response to this Christ answered, "Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up." Not the cross you say? Christ was talking about God's judgment, an abomination that would leave the Temple and all those buildings of Jerusalem desolate SPIRITUALLY! That was the fulfillment of Matthew 24:1-2. LIKEWISE, the end times mirroring this abomination and desolation, when the NEW TESTAMENT Temple (2nd Thessalonians 2) and the Holy Place would again be abominable, and this is when it would fall, and the believers are to flee from the midst of Judaea. SPIRITUALLY. Try and stay focused and keep things accurate.
1. The Temple of Matthew 24 is a prophecy of the Temple near the end of the world/age that would have abomination stand it in. Church, not 70AD.
2. The Old Testament Temple (that the literal temple symbolized) was the congregation that fell at the cross. SPIRITUALLY. And was rebuilt in Christ, Him being the cornerstone of that Temple re-building. AND that's why the veil of the Holy Temple was rent/torn from "Top to bottom" the second that Christ died. It signified the fall of the Old Testament Temple, which would be rebuilt in Christ's resurrection. It already happened long before 70AD!
TribulationSigns
Active Member
Please read the CONTEXT:
Revelation 10:6-7
- "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
- But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
At the last day (John 12:48), at the last trumpet (1st Thessalonians 4:18), at the bodily return of Christ, that is the end of the world and the end of time. According to scripture, there will be no 144,000 Jews to be sealed/saved after the Rapture. No Satan in the bottomless pit for literal 1,000 years. No 1,000 literal kingdom after this. That is merely wishful thinking by some professing Christians and Theologians, especially the Premillennilists.
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