Under a curse

[bbyrd009]

***

If works are necessary then you have added works to faith.

dang tootin. if belief is all that is necessary, then satan is saved. But tbh i am not interested in another pointless faith v works debate. If i am to reap what i sow, it follows that i must sow. "Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty..." the Book is sick with it. "Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous." All day long. Not that James is not Canon anyway, and applies to anyone who reads it. This division of people into "Jew" and "Gentile" is also yack imo.

At the same time, if you think you can please God by works, then "And does the master thank the servant for doing what he was told to do? Of course not." is not being understood, i guess.

We are a vastly codependent society, and codependents are great at volunteering "service" that no one wants or needs, except in the mind of the codependent. These are just a way to retain ego and feel superior and in command, while also avoiding the works of Jonah, etc.

My whole family is Codependent, capital C, and any one of them would help you to death, unless you actually ask for some help lol, in which case they have a better idea, or better way to do it, or they have to wash their hair or whatever.

They are good-hearted people, too, don't misunderstand me; you just can't stand to be around them for any length of time, especially unaccompanied, when they are more likely to manip you some kind of way. They are also completely unable to ask for any kind of help, and they cannot apologize.

I mean, constitutionally unable to say a genuine "I'm sorry," because in their minds they are never wrong of course. One is a pastor even.

 

[bbyrd009]

That they are set free from the sins that are committed in their flesh.

"do not be deceived, little children."

If a religious person was honest they would see that committing sins of the flesh and then pulling out their get out of sin “repentance” card is the same thing, their license to sin all they want to.

where that fails is that guy does not rebound, apologize, offer to remedy his wrong, etc, as that would entail humbling himself (good fruit does not come from bad trees), and furthermore, "their license to sin all they want to" also would demonstrate lack of understanding of rebound (repentance).

Also, forgiveness does not = escape from the consequences, so regardless of whether the "religious" were fooling themselves or not, God is not mocked anyway; chickens come home to roost.

 

[bbyrd009]

Why can't you see that when a person commits to faith in what Jesus did on the cross they are carrying that cross.

ya, not buying it, what is this "commits to faith?" sounds suspiciously like "really really believe" or some other semantic maneuver designed to make people feel better about being hypocrites wadr.

 

[bbyrd009]

Those that add man's works are not carrying Jesus' cross.

"man's works?" what about God's works? If Jonah had refused to do the works that God required of him, would Jonah even be known to you? Carrying a cross is work, and believing is for chumps. The people who taught you all this fence-sitting jazz are liars and whores, and they have all signed financial contracts for God, sorry.

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus' work on the cross is a free gift and can not be earned by man's work.

bull-puckey. The unrepentant do not get grace, and rebounding is work too. Don't you know that no Son of Man may die for another's sins? And that you are responsible for your own sins? I can dig up the passages if you like, pretty sure they aren't in James, since apparently you have cut out that Book in your Bible.

"Many will cry 'Lord, Lord.'" ahem

 

[bbyrd009]

The only need to ponder, is to realize that if we are "with Christ" and He "with us", then He (and we with Him) have not only been taken down from the cross, but have been raised up unto new life. In other words, it is [only] right to take up our cross to the point of death. But when we have raised from the dead by the power of God in Christ, we are to rise up.

ya, still not buying it, but if you have some Scripture to that effect i would reconsider.
Matt 16:24
Mark 8:34
Luke 9:23
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross, and follow me.

so where is the "put down your cross" verse?
and i suggest that it is not too hard to envision how y'alls doctrine might be self-serving

 

[bbyrd009]

which is our living testimony. We live in the times of the last Adam, the life giving spirit, whom is Christ...and yet, if we insist on living as the first Adam, holding on to the flesh (even the cross), our life and end is limited to: "it is appointed once to die."

s'posed to be a living sacrifice, hello, and you have conflated too many concepts for me to comment any further wadr.

look, you guys can believe what you like; these may not reflect your heart at all, i don't know you irl. And the faith/works debate, as ignorant as it seems to me, is an old one, that we surely will not resolve ok. If you think all you have to do is believe, then go with that. But i am not buying this "all i have to do is make a public profession (also works, hello) without crossing my fingers, and i'm good" stuff. Best of luck to you both.

 

[bbyrd009]

but tbh you both strike me as pretty conscientious, and i suspect we are arguing semantics--we have diff definitions of "works" or whatever.

 

[ScottA]

ya, still not buying it, but if you have some Scripture to that effect i would reconsider.
Matt 16:24
Mark 8:34
Luke 9:23
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross, and follow me.

so where is the "put down your cross" verse?
and i suggest that it is not too hard to envision how y'alls doctrine might be self-serving

If you are looking for a "You Are Here" sign, it's not there. You should, however, be able to surmise that we are past the cross, and then determine just where you are in your own personal walk: taking up your cross, following Christ through His victory, or born again of the spirit of God, and thus raised up with Christ in the resurrection. You know better than anyone just where you are.

As for Paul and those who are keeping step with Christ, I have given you the scriptures already:

Ephesians 2:5-7
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

2 Corinthians 5:17 [Full Chapter]
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

...all past tense.

 

[ScottA]

s'posed to be a living sacrifice, hello, and you have conflated too many concepts for me to comment any further wadr.

look, you guys can believe what you like; these may not reflect your heart at all, i don't know you irl. And the faith/works debate, as ignorant as it seems to me, is an old one, that we surely will not resolve ok. If you think all you have to do is believe, then go with that. But i am not buying this "all i have to do is make a public profession (also works, hello) without crossing my fingers, and i'm good" stuff. Best of luck to you both.

The point and deciding factory here, is that we do indeed have our "resolve" in Christ - not because we have finished our walk, but because Christ has finished His.

If we can agree that Christ has "finished", then we should also be able to go on with that which Christ promised of being born again of the spirit of God, and that it is not even us who now lives, but Christ who lives in us...whom has already taken up His cross and been victorious.

But if you confuse this time with that time between Christ telling those of that day to take up their cross, and the time of His sending the Holy Spirit...then you are stuck in a context and time that is not for us, but for those who would either follow Him or crucify Him. That was then, this is now.

 

[bbyrd009]

You know better than anyone just where you are.

i don't trust this salvation that deposits one immediately in the Promised Land, no Wandering required.
Although there is surely a sense of victory also, it is victory in defeat, in dying to ourselves, which is hard to characterize as entirely pleasant imo

 

[bbyrd009]

As for Paul and those who are keeping step with Christ

what, both of them?

 

[bbyrd009]

I have given you the scriptures already:

yes, and the passage is quite...flowery, and may have other interpretations though too
does it apply to those who are in Christ? Sure.
Do you believe that because you have made a public profession you are now automatically "in Christ?"
because that is a diff matter

i'm waiting for this "laying down your cross" verse, i don't think that has been supported yet. certainly not witnessed by other Words. This sounds like a dangerous assumption to me

 

[pia]

yes, and the passage is quite...flowery, and may have other interpretations though too
does it apply to those who are in Christ? Sure.
Do you believe that because you have made a public profession you are now automatically "in Christ?"
because that is a diff matter

i'm waiting for this "laying down your cross" verse, i don't think that has been supported yet. certainly not witnessed by other Words. This sounds like a dangerous assumption to me

May I ask you please ? Do you see salvation coming to people at the end of wandering and /or stumbling around on this earth? Do you see it as coming as a reward for those who lived a certain way ? I don't know you very well, so I wanted to ask you, hope you don't mind?

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you see salvation coming to people at the end of wandering and /or stumbling around on this earth?

i suggest that Christ came for "Life. more abundantly," and that has been turned into "i can't wait to die and go to heaven."

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you see it as coming as a reward for those who lived a certain way ?

living well should be its own reward imo. You will reap what you sow. I think Understand I AM needs to be understood.

Whenever you are, for the entire rest of your existence, it will always be "now."

 

[pia]

living well should be its own reward imo. You will reap what you sow. I think Understand I AM needs to be understood.

Whenever you are, for the entire rest of your existence, it will always be "now."

Very nice......Very well put.

 

[pia]

living well should be its own reward imo. You will reap what you sow. I think Understand I AM needs to be understood.

Whenever you are, for the entire rest of your existence, it will always be "now."

Living with His presence every day, now that's a reward, one that I for one, most certainly didn't deserve, none of it actually, but He still did it. Amazing !

 

[ScottA]

yes, and the passage is quite...flowery, and may have other interpretations though too
does it apply to those who are in Christ? Sure.
Do you believe that because you have made a public profession you are now automatically "in Christ?"
because that is a diff matter

i'm waiting for this "laying down your cross" verse, i don't think that has been supported yet. certainly not witnessed by other Words. This sounds like a dangerous assumption to me

This has all been covered in the word of God by His providence down through the ages. But if you cannot see clearly to embrace all that has been promised and now fulfilled, then you are not ready to say, "It is finished." You seem to be stuck in that time when salvation was just beginning, following those words that were only for those of that time. It is finished. For those who can receive it, the victory is already won. He has overcome the world and born every burden.

Moreover, during these times following His victory and having sent His Holy Spirit, we are not to be living in the world at all. We are to be reigning with Christ as kings and princes. For, if we are able to perceive that Christ has already come in the flesh and now in the spirit, it is not we who now live but Christ who lives in us. What business then, do we have lingering in the flesh like herds of cattle? Our salvation has been paid in full. Will we now go about as if Christ had not come? That is not belief, but unbelief.

 

[pia]

This has all been covered in the word of God by His providence down through the ages. But if you cannot see clearly to embrace all that has been promised and now fulfilled, then you are not ready to say, "It is finished." You seem to be stuck in that time when salvation was just beginning, following those words that were only for those of that time. It is finished. For those who can receive it, the victory is already won. He has overcome the world and born every burden.

Moreover, during these times following His victory and having sent His Holy Spirit, we are not to be living in the world at all. We are to be reigning with Christ as kings and princes. For, if we are able to perceive that Christ has already come in the flesh and now in the spirit, it is not we who now live but Christ who lives in us. What business then, do we have lingering in the flesh like herds of cattle? Our salvation has been paid in full. Will we now go about as if Christ had not come? That is not belief, but unbelief.

Well put...Another example to 'drive' the point home. People are willing to come TO the cross and into His death and although they say that of course they believe in the resurrection, they have not taken steps to get PAST the cross and into His Life ( and He into ours ), into the Power of His resurrection... Where is faith then ? Broke my heart when I read in the Bible :" When The Son of man returns will He find faith upon the earth?" no wonder He also says :" Narrow is the way and few are they that find it." By the way, if you are able to receive this, He once corrected me on an inquiry about the kings and priests.....He said it was supposed to be ' A Kingdom of Priests to The Lord' .