Understanding the Prophecy of 70 Weeks

[Davidpt]

I always wonder what it means to worship.

Worship who? Surely Jesus does not mean they will be worshiping His saints?

And I wonder what "at your feet" means, if not to symbolize they had adopted an attitude of servitude to those whom they formerly persecuted?

So Isaiah 60:14 is pertinent, IMO. I just never saw that link till now.

It seems apparent that it can't be meaning worshiping saints when we already see things like the following recorded in Scripture that are against that idea.

Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

On a side note, notice what the two Revelation passages record. I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book. It sounds like to me then, literal angels are not meant here, that these are human or were human initially. Kind of reminds me of the following except that is something that is not fulfilled until Jesus bodily returns first.

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels ; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

 

[Zao is life]

It seems apparent that it can't be meaning worshiping saints when we already see things like the following recorded in Scripture that are against that idea.

Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

On a side note, notice what the two Revelation passages record. I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book. It sounds like to me then, literal angels are not meant here, that these are human or were human initially. Kind of reminds me of the following except that is something that is not fulfilled until Jesus bodily returns first.

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels ; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Copy @David in NJ @ewq1938

I've been wanting to get your thoughts on this:

Heaven Opened

There were no chapter divisions in the Revelation until they were inserted (for easier reference) in 1227 a.d:

Revelation 19 verses 1 - 4
Closes what Revelation 18 tells us about the destruction of the harlot; and

Revelation 22 verses 1 - 5
Closes the description of the New Heavens and New Earth (which is described from Revelation 21:1 onward).

Rev.19:5-6
It's exclaimed that the Lord God is reigning.

Rev.19:16
Calls Him "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS", who treads the winepress of the wrath of God (Rev.19:15) and defeats the beast and his armies (Rev.19:19-21).

Rev.19:11
THIS IS IMPORTANT: When the scene of the return of Christ opens, heaven is opened, so that John sees what is in heaven:

"And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war." (Rev.19:11).

Chapters 19 and 21
Both tell us that this is also the time that the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself, and and she was granted that she should be "arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints." (Rev.19:7-8).

These are the armies of Christ who follow Him on white horses, who are "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev.19:14), and John sees them in heaven with Christ. (Rev.19:14 - Heaven was opened before any of this could be seen - Rev.19:11).

Rev.21:2
John saw "the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband."

The final scene described above opens with:

Revelation 19
9 And he said to me, Write, Blessed are those who have been called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, Stop! I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

And closes with:

Revelation 22
6 And he said to me, These sayings are faithful and true. And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show to His servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he who keeps the sayings of the prophecy of this Book.
8 And I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel showing me these things.
9 Then he said to me, Behold! Stop! For I am your fellow-servant, and of your brothers the prophets, and of those who keep the sayings of this Book. Do worship to God.
10 And he said to me, Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this Book; for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22 verses 1 - 5
Closes the description of the New Heavens and New Earth (which is described from Revelation 21:1 onward).

Revelation 22 verses 6 - 21
Closes what John saw about the time of the very end (the return of Christ and judgment of the beast), which began to be spoken about in Revelation 19 verses 5 - 6.

Revelation Chapter 20
Is a parenthetic chapter, with its thousand years snuggled nicely in-between the opening and closing visions regarding the time of the time of the return of Christ which were seen by John.

Revelation 2:11
He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 21:7-8
He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 21:1-4
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No more death for those who overcame, because:

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The second death occurs one thousand years into the new heavens and new earth, but there is no more death or crying for the bride, the Lamb's wife, i.e those who had overcome and had part in the first resurrection, because the second death has no authority over them.​

 

[ewq1938]

There were no chapter divisions in the Revelation until they were inserted (for easier reference) in 1227 a.d:​

Stephen Langton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A Catholic priest/Archbishop which means he was Amil. No wonder he would place a division of chapters between Rev 19 and 20 to try to make it seem like Rev 19 and 20 aren't as connected as they obviously are. Before chapters it would be easy for Premil to argue Christ returns before the Mill so the Amil RCC decided to use their massive influence and put chapters that aided their Amil beliefs.

Revelation Chapter 20
Is a parenthetic chapter, with its thousand years snuggled nicely in-between the opening and closing visions regarding the time of the time of the return of Christ which were seen by John.​

Reading them without regard to the chapter numbers doesn't make me think of 20 as parenthetical. 19-22 are mainly chronological with the second coming and the start of the thousand years, it's end and the final judgment. This was the view of the early church until the 3rd century when chapter numbers were introduced which artificially separated things intended to be read together. A Catholic (Amil) also later created the verse numbers which further added some confusion, especially in Rev 20.

 

[Zao is life]

Stephen Langton - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A Catholic priest/Archbishop which means he was Amil. No wonder he would place a division of chapters between Rev 19 and 20 to try to make it seem like Rev 19 and 20 aren't as connected as they obviously are. Before chapters it would be easy for Premil to argue Christ returns before the Mill so the Amil RCC decided to use their massive influence and put chapters that aided their Amil beliefs.

Reading them without regard to the chapter numbers doesn't make me think of 20 as parenthetical. 19-22 are mainly chronological with the second coming and the start of the thousand years, it's end and the final judgment. This was the view of the early church until the 3rd century when chapter numbers were introduced which artificially separated things intended to be read together. A Catholic (Amil) also later created the verse numbers which further added some confusion, especially in Rev 20.

So do you also see this:

Revelation 2:11
He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 21:7-8
He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 21:1-4
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No more death for those who overcame, because:

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The second death occurs one thousand years into the new heavens and new earth (which follows the return of Christ), but there is no more death or crying for the bride, the Lamb's wife, i.e those who had overcome and had part in the first resurrection, because the second death has no authority over them.

There is also this:

The only two places you will find the words "It is done!":

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!" Rev.16:17.

"And He said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely." Rev.21:6

 

[David in NJ]

So do you also see this:

Revelation 2:11
He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 21:7-8
He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 21:1-4
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No more death for those who overcame, because:

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The second death occurs one thousand years into the new heavens and new earth (which follows the return of Christ), but there is no more death or crying for the bride, the Lamb's wife, i.e those who had overcome and had part in the first resurrection, because the second death has no authority over them.

There is also this:

The only two places you will find the words "It is done!":

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!" Rev.16:17.

"And He said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely." Rev.21:6

The Second Death occurs at the End of the 1,000 Years.
Rev 20:7 - When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

The LORD back references the 'second death' in ch21 not as if that is about to happen but that it has already occurred and this is a major focus point of the Final Judgment that will be in contrast to the Final GLORY that will be>

God is using 'Compare and Contrast' in Revelation = You have a Present Condition then a Look Forward and then a Look Back and then Forward to Completion.

In the Completion(ch22) the LORD interjects the Now/Today/Present invitation to receive Him along with the Warnings of rejecting Him = John 3:16-21 = Rev ch22 "the Spirit and the Bride say come" contrast to "outside are liars, dogs, murderers...."

 

[David in NJ]

So do you also see this:

Revelation 2:11
He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches; He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 21:7-8
He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 21:1-4
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No more death for those who overcame, because:

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The second death occurs one thousand years into the new heavens and new earth (which follows the return of Christ), but there is no more death or crying for the bride, the Lamb's wife, i.e those who had overcome and had part in the first resurrection, because the second death has no authority over them.

There is also this:

The only two places you will find the words "It is done!":

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!" Rev.16:17.

"And He said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely." Rev.21:6

Concerning "heaven being open" in Rev ch19, this is expected at this point in Prophetic fulfillment because:
a.) Rev ch12 - "Satan and his angels have been cast down to earth"
b.) 1 Thess ch3 & ch4 - "the LORD will descend....with the Saints"

Evidently Satan and his angels are a serious threat, not just to mankind.
So God has determined that there will be no Battle taking place in the 3rd Heaven(or 7th depending on the actual number) so that God can judge satan on earth = which is the ULTIMATE HUMILIATION for the ARCH Angel Satan.

12“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit = SEE = Rev 20:1-3
Isaiah ch14

 

[Davy]

"tares of the wicked one" are BOTH Jew & Gentile

1 John 3:10-12
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother.
And why did he murder him?
Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

The "tares" are especially about Judah, because they are the crept in unawares of Old Testament history among the tribes of Israel. I'm not making this up...

Judg 2:2-3
2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed My voice: why have ye done this?
3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
KJV

Judg 3:1-7
3 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, to prove Israel by them, even as many of Israel as had not known all the wars of Canaan;
2 Only that the generations of the children of Israel might know, to teach them war, at the least such as before knew nothing thereof;
3 Namely, five lords of the Philistines, and all the Canaanites, and the Sidonians, and the Hivites that dwelt in mount Lebanon, from mount Baal-hermon unto the entering in of Hamath.
4 And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of the LORD, which He commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.
5 And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites, and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites:
6 And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons, and served their gods.
7 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves.
KJV

Ps 106:34-40
34 They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them:
35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.
36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.
37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.
40 Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that He abhorred His own inheritance.
KJV

Josh 9:3-9
3 And when the inhabitants of Gibeon heard what Joshua had done unto Jericho and to Ai,
4 They did work wilily, and went and made as if they had been ambassadors, and took old sacks upon their asses, and wine bottles, old, and rent, and bound up;
5 And old shoes and clouted upon their feet, and old garments upon them; and all the bread of their provision was dry and mouldy.
6 And they went to Joshua unto the camp at Gilgal, and said unto him, and to the men of Israel, "We be come from a far country: now therefore make ye a league with us."
7 And the men of Israel said unto the Hivites, "Peradventure ye dwell among us; and how shall we make a league with you?"
8 And they said unto Joshua, "We are thy servants." And Joshua said unto them, "Who are ye? and from whence come ye?"
9 And they said unto him, "From a very far country thy servants are come because of the name of the LORD thy God: for we have heard the fame of Him, and all that He did in Egypt,"
KJV

Josh 9:19-23
19 But all the princes said unto all the congregation, "We have sworn unto them by the LORD God of Israel: now therefore we may not touch them.
20 This we will do to them; we will even let them live, lest wrath be upon us, because of the oath which we sware unto them."
21 And the princes said unto them, "Let them live; but let them be hewers of wood and drawers of water unto all the congregation; as the princes had promised them."
22 And Joshua called for them, and he spake unto them, saying, "Wherefore have ye beguiled us, saying, 'We are very far from you; when ye dwell among us?'
23 Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God."
KJV

1 Kings 9:19-22
19 And all the cities of store that Solomon had, and cities for his chariots, and cities for his horsemen, and that which Solomon desired to build in Jerusalem, and in Lebanon, and in all the land of his dominion.
20 And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,
21 Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.
22 But of the children of Israel did Solomon make no bondmen: but they were men of war, and his servants, and his princes, and his captains, and rulers of his chariots, and his horsemen.
KJV

 

[Davy]

"tares of the wicked one" are BOTH Jew & Gentile

1 John 3:10-12
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother.
And why did he murder him?
Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

There's more...


Judg 1:16
16 And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law, went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into the wilderness of Judah, which lieth in the south of Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.
KJV

Gen 15:18-21
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
KJV

1 Chron 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
KJV

That's who Israel's scribes were, and were with the false Jews of the Pharisees that tried to trap Lord Jesus.

 

[David in NJ]

There's more...


Judg 1:16
16 And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law, went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into the wilderness of Judah, which lieth in the south of Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.
KJV

Gen 15:18-21
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
KJV

1 Chron 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
KJV

That's who Israel's scribes were, and were with the false Jews of the Pharisees that tried to trap Lord Jesus.

Are 'authentic' Jews saved because of God's Promise to Abraham even though they have not accepted Yeshua as their Messiah?

 

[Davy]

Are 'authentic' Jews saved because of God's Promise to Abraham even though they have not accepted Yeshua as their Messiah?

I simply use the idea of 'bloodline' Jews, or of the 'seed' of Israel to point to 'authentic' Jews.

(But more specifically per Bible history, the title of Jew was used only by the southern "kingdom of Judah" at Judea/Jerusalem after split old Israel into two kingdoms, and the "kingdom of Judah" was made up of only 3 tribes of Israel - Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. This is why Apostle Paul said he was a Jew, though he said also he was born of the tribe of Benjamin. The title Jew was originally derived from the name of the tribe 'Judah'.)

And answer to your question is of course, NO, the orthodox unbelieving Jews are NOT saved simply because of being born of the seed of Israel. Are you still trying to lay a trap with your questioning, because I'm almost certain you well know God's Salvation is only through Faith on His Son Jesus Christ, and there is no other Way of Salvation.

 

[David in NJ]

I simply use the idea of 'bloodline' Jews, or of the 'seed' of Israel to point to 'authentic' Jews.

(But more specifically per Bible history, the title of Jew was used only by the southern "kingdom of Judah" at Judea/Jerusalem after split old Israel into two kingdoms, and the "kingdom of Judah" was made up of only 3 tribes of Israel - Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. This is why Apostle Paul said he was a Jew, though he said also he was born of the tribe of Benjamin. The title Jew was originally derived from the name of the tribe 'Judah'.)

And answer to your question is of course, NO, the orthodox unbelieving Jews are NOT saved simply because of being born of the seed of Israel. Are you still trying to lay a trap with your questioning, because I'm almost certain you well know God's Salvation is only through Faith on His Son Jesus Christ, and there is no other Way of Salvation.

No attempt to lay a trap.
i asked because there are some who believe Jews are saved because of the Promise made to Abraham.

On another forum there is this member who trumpets: "God made no covenant with Gentiles".

That would'nt be you now - would it???

 

[ewq1938]

So do you also see this:

What is it you believe those verses are saying?

 

[Davy]

No attempt to lay a trap.
i asked because there are some who believe Jews are saved because of the Promise made to Abraham.

Well, I definitely do not believe that, nor should anyone who claims to be a Christian. So for those who know better, asking them that can serve as a loaded question.

On another forum there is this member who trumpets: "God made no covenant with Gentiles".

That would'nt be you now - would it???

Now you are getting insulting!
I've already given you my answer TWICE that I do not believe any such idea that the seed of Israel are saved by just having been born of Israel. So what's your problem? Are your ears full of wax or do you need glasses so you can read better?

 

[Davy]

No attempt to lay a trap.
i asked because there are some who believe Jews are saved because of the Promise made to Abraham.

On another forum there is this member who trumpets: "God made no covenant with Gentiles".

That would'nt be you now - would it???

One of the idiotic things I noted with 'some' on Christian forums, is how when someone shows they know their Old Testament Scriptures in addition to The New Testament Scriptures, the backward and superstitious begin thinking someone who posts Old Testament Scripture is not really a Christian, but could be an Orthodox Jew.

Those who think that reveals to me what kind of fake preacher they've been listening to, because some churches today falsely teach that all the Old Testament Books are dead history, and have no bearing on the Christian Church and The New Covenant.

Those brethren who get sucked into that stupidity don't deserve to be shown God's Truth in His Word more than just The Gospel, staying on the 'milk' of God's Word all their adult lives! They go to Church, sit in the pews and throw in their money, and rarely open up God's Word in study for themselves, much less BOTH Old Testament Book and New Testament Book study.

 

[Zao is life]

The Second Death occurs at the End of the 1,000 Years.
Rev 20:7 - When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

The LORD back references the 'second death' in ch21 not as if that is about to happen but that it has already occurred and this is a major focus point of the Final Judgment that will be in contrast to the Final GLORY that will be>

God is using 'Compare and Contrast' in Revelation = You have a Present Condition then a Look Forward and then a Look Back and then Forward to Completion.

In the Completion(ch22) the LORD interjects the Now/Today/Present invitation to receive Him along with the Warnings of rejecting Him = John 3:16-21 = Rev ch22 "the Spirit and the Bride say come" contrast to "outside are liars, dogs, murderers...."​

Copy @ewq1938 @Davidpt

Are you 100% sure that Revelation chapters 21 & 22 are not just a description of the Kingdom of Christ which is ushered in when He returns, which also ushers in the first thousand years of it?

In the book of Revelation there are noticeable themes that come up in different chapters, for example:



"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give him to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." (Revelation 2:7).
​

COMMON THEME: REVELATION CHAPTERS 19 & 21-22​

In Revelation 19:5-6 it's exclaimed that the Lord God is reigning. Revelation 19:16 calls Him "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS", who treads the winepress of the wrath of God (Rev.19:15) and defeats the beast and his armies (Rev.19:19-21).

Rev.19:11: THIS IS IMPORTANT, because it gives us a clue as to how to interpret everything that follows in the Revelation: When the scene of Christ and His armies of saints coming for battle with the beast and his armies opens, HEAVEN IS OPENED, so that John sees what is in heaven:

"And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war." (Rev.19:11).

It's talking about Christ. The same chapter mentions the bride of Christ, as does Revelation 21:



​

THE WORLD TO COME​

Hebrews 2:5 "For He has not put in subjection to the angels the world to come, of which we speak."

Mark 10:28-30
"Then Peter began to say to Him, Lo, we have left all and have followed You. And Jesus answered and said, Truly I say to you, There is no man that has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands for my sake and the gospel's sake, but he shall receive a hundredfold now [Greek: νῦν nŷn] in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands with persecutions, and in the world to come, eternal life."

Galatians 6:15 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision has any strength, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation."

2 Corinthians 5:17 "So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

Revelation 21:5 "And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful."

​

THE PROMISES TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME:-

(1) They will eat of the Tree of Life (Revelation 2:7)
(2) They will not be hurt by the Second Death (Revelation 2:11)
(3) They will eat Hidden Manna and receive a New Name (Revelation 2:17)
(4) They will be given power over the nations (Revelation 2:26)
(5) Their names will not be blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5)
(6) They will be made a Pillar in the Temple of God (Revelation 3:12)
(7) They will sit with Christ in His Throne (Revelation 3:21)
(8) They will inherit All Things (Revelation 21:7)

βασιλεύσει (He will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 11:15 (Christ).
βασιλεύσουσιν (they will reign) on the earth: Revelation 5:10 (those who overcome).
βασιλεύσουσιν (they will reign) with Christ a thousand years: Revelation 20:6 (those who overcame).
βασιλεύσουσιν (they will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 22:5.

Revelation 22:3-5
“And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God gives them light: and they will reign (βασιλεύσουσιν) for ever and ever.”





The theme of chapter 19 is the appearance of Christ and His armies and the defeat of the beast and his armies. The theme of the millennium is the everlasting Kingdom of Christ, and it's described in Revelation 21 & 22.

It does not mean the millennium is not literal or that just as it was when Adam was in paradise, Satan will not be allowed to test immortals who will suffer the second death - since Adam's death spread to all men, and Christ's death and resurrection from the dead is shared by all mankind, .. and there will be a 2nd death.

ewq1938 admits that those who suffer the 2nd death cannot suffer the 2nd death before they are resurrected. It's not necessarily referring only to the rest of the dead who did not live again until the thousand years are finished. Scripture tells us that only Christ us immortal and only Christ has everlasting life in Himself. Our eternal life is in Christ. Adam believed he would not surely die.

I updated this page in my Blog site to make it clearer what I'm saying:

New Jerusalem and the thousand years

C omparing scripture with scripture. THE WORLD TO COME Hebrews 2:5 "For He has not put in subjection to the angels the world to come , o...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

 

[Zao is life]

What is it you believe those verses are saying?

I'll copy you on my reply to David in NJ

 

[ewq1938]

Copy @ewq1938 @Davidpt

Are you 100% sure that Revelation chapters 21 & 22 are not just a description of the Kingdom of Christ which is ushered in when He returns, which also ushers in the first thousand years of it?
​

Yes and I will offer solid proof. I will address everything, but please let's go one point at a time.

Rev 21 cannot be the second coming because in the NHNE there is no pain, tears or death yet death happens after the second coming and AFTER the thousand years at Jerusalem through fire from heaven, and a short time later the second death. Those deaths cannot occur in the NHNE.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


This can only be a reality AFTER the second death is completed at the end of Rev 20.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes and I will offer solid proof. I will address everything, but please let's go one point at a time.

Rev 21 cannot be the second coming because in the NHNE there is no pain, tears or death yet death happens after the second coming and AFTER the thousand years at Jerusalem through fire from heaven, and a short time later the second death. Those deaths cannot occur in the NHNE.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


This can only be a reality AFTER the second death is completed at the end of Rev 20.

There is solid proof that refutes the idea that the above is solid proof, though, ewq1938

Revelation chapters 21 & 22 are describing the Kingdom of Christ, and Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about saints who will reign with Him for a thousand years in His Kingdom, saying,

"Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6).

Your chief objection to the above is that Revelation 21:4 says there will be "no more death", but death and hades is only said to be cast into the lake of fire at the close of the thousand years (Revelation 20:14).

Yet it is clear that after the appearance of Jesus our Messiah there will be no more death or crying for the bride, the Lamb's wife, i.e those who had overcome and had part in the first resurrection,

because the second death has no authority over them, and - here's the solid proof that refutes the notion that you have offered solid proof regarding the above - these are the people who are being spoken about in both Revelation 7:13-17 (those who had come out from great tribulation and had "washed their robes, and whitened them in the blood of the Lamb"), and in Revelation 21:4:​

It's Christ's kingdom, which is everlasting. . It begins when He has destroyed the beast and false prophet in the lake of fire, bound Satan, and the saints mentioned in the scriptures above have begun to reign with Him - but they will only reign with Him for a thousand years. We know how that thousand years ends for those whose names are not in the book of life.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes and I will offer solid proof. I will address everything, but please let's go one point at a time.

 

[ewq1938]

Yet it is clear that after the appearance of Jesus our Messiah there will be no more death or crying for the bride, the Lamb's wife, i.e those who had overcome and had part in the first resurrection,
​

Scripture doesn't add that limitation though. It simply says death and pain do not exist in the NHNE but all those things exist in Rev 20. When death is cast into the LOF, death no longer exists for anyone.

Another issue is no sea in the NHNE but there is sea in Rev 20.