Understanding the Prophecy of 70 Weeks

[David in NJ]

There is solid proof that refutes the idea that the above is solid proof, though, ewq1938

Revelation chapters 21 & 22 are describing the Kingdom of Christ, and Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about saints who will reign with Him for a thousand years in His Kingdom, saying,

"Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6).

Your chief objection to the above is that Revelation 21:4 says there will be "no more death", but death and hades is only said to be cast into the lake of fire at the close of the thousand years (Revelation 20:14).

Yet it is clear that after the appearance of Jesus our Messiah there will be no more death or crying for the bride, the Lamb's wife, i.e those who had overcome and had part in the first resurrection,

because the second death has no authority over them, and - here's the solid proof that refutes the notion that you have offered solid proof regarding the above - these are the people who are being spoken about in both Revelation 7:13-17 (those who had come out from great tribulation and had "washed their robes, and whitened them in the blood of the Lamb"), and in Revelation 21:4:​

View attachment 39718

It's Christ's kingdom, which is everlasting. . It begins when He has destroyed the beast and false prophet in the lake of fire, bound Satan, and the saints mentioned in the scriptures above have begun to reign with Him - but they will only reign with Him for a thousand years. We know how that thousand years ends for those whose names are not in the book of life.

There is quite and obvious difference between chapter 7 and chapter 21

 

[Zao is life]

Another issue is no sea in the NHNE but there is sea in Rev 20.

That is a stronger point than there being no more death, because the verse where it says there will be no more death is linked to the previous verse whose subject is the bride of Christ.

Anyway, if we strip away the chapter divisions in the book of Revelation, there are noticeable themes that come up in different chapters, like this:

Revelation 19:10:






It doesn't seem to imply a new heavens and new earth following the thousand years, IMO. To me it implies both the NNNE and the millennium commencing at the same time.

 

[Zao is life]

There is quite and obvious difference between chapter 7 and chapter 21

.. ?

 

[ewq1938]

That is a stronger point than there being no more death, because the verse where it says there will be no more death is linked to the previous verse whose subject is the bride of Christ.

No defense against the no more sea then? Some of the dead come from the sea just after the Millennium. IF the NHNE happened already, there would be no sea for them to come out of. Clearly Rev 20 and 21 are chronological making the NHNE only occurring AFTER all the events of Rev 20 have completed.

 

[Timtofly]

It doesn't seem to imply a new heavens and new earth following the thousand years, IMO. To me it implies both the NNNE and the millennium commencing at the same time.

So, are you an Amil, or think the New Jerusalem comes down after a thousand years?

 

[Zao is life]

No defense against the no more sea then? Some of the dead come from the sea just after the Millennium. IF the NHNE happened already, there would be no sea for them to come out of. Clearly Rev 20 and 21 are chronological making the NHNE only occurring AFTER all the events of Rev 20 have completed.

What does the sea symbolize, in your opinion? Note: It can't be the nations, because the nations are mentioned in the NHNE:



In the same way that the mention of there being no more death is mentioned in the context of John seeing a vision of the bride of Christ descending out of heaven from God, so there being no more sea is mentioned in the same context.

In what context is the sea mentioned at the close of Revelation 20? It's the second death, which has no authority over the bride of Christ.

The NHNE is about the experience of the bride of Christ who had been resurrected (see the graph in the image below).

@David in NJ and @ewq1938 What does "the sea" symbolize in your opinion?

So we have

1. The new heavens and new earth of Revelation chapters 21:1 to 22:5; and

2. The thousand years of Revelation chapter 20,

being linked together as a common theme, giving us a picture of what will follow the appearance of Christ. i.e they will commence at the same time,

and though there will be no more death for the bride of Christ after He has appeared (they will instead reign with Christ for a thousand years), all the dead whose names are not found in Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire along with Death and Hades when the thousand years have been fulfilled.

All this agrees with what Peter said in 2 Peter chapter 3:

2 Peter 3:10, 13
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the 1. elements [stoicheîon] shall be 2. dissolved [lýō] with fervent heat, the earth also and the 3. works [érgon] that are therein shall be burned up.

But according to His promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

1. stoicheîon refers to the rudiments of the world;

2. lýō refers to something that was bound, being loosed;

3. érgon refers to the works of men.

The balance in the scale is not in favor of the NHNE commencing after the millennium.

 

[Zao is life]

So, are you an Amil, or think the New Jerusalem comes down after a thousand years?

Neither.

Nor am I post-mil.

It leaves only one option. See my post above this one.

 

[Zao is life]

There is quite and obvious difference between chapter 7 and chapter 21

You have not explained your blanket statement. Which isn't fair, since you have agreed with ewq1938 while I have explained my position at length

 

[Davidpt]

No defense against the no more sea then? Some of the dead come from the sea just after the Millennium. IF the NHNE happened already, there would be no sea for them to come out of. Clearly Rev 20 and 21 are chronological making the NHNE only occurring AFTER all the events of Rev 20 have completed.

This is not a bad argument.

Yet, most Premils, if not all Premils, insist Isaiah 65, which also involves NHNE, that that is meaning during the thousand years rather than after. I do not see it being reasonable in the least, that there can be two different NHNEs. one during the thousand years, and another one after the thousand years. There is zero reason to believe that the verses that follow Isaiah 65:17, that none of these things are involving the NHNE.

Then there is this to factor in as well.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


The fact verse 22 mentions the new heavens and the new earth, it is then meaning these things recorded in verse 23 and 24 come to pass during the NHNE. Why would they being doing what is recorded in verse 24, during the NHNE? Especially when it;s obvious that those that have transgressed against Him, it is meaning these in verse 15 and 16. Therefore, the timing of these things is at the beginning of the thousand years, not after, meaning when they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Him, and that verse 22 places this during the NHNE.

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

These verses explain the transgressors in verse 24. Verse 22 explains the era of time when they shall be going this, going forth and looking upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Him.

My guess would be that this serves as warning. Transgress against me after the thousand years, this will be your fate as well, meaning Revelation 20:9 pertains to being devoured by fire from God out of heave. Which then explains Isaiah 60:12 since that is obviously meaning during the NHNE and that we can that by comparing some of Isaiah 60 with some of Revelation 21 and 22, that the NHNE is in view here. And in that same NHNE context is this, what I already brought up.

Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

I don't know why I am discussing these things in this thread when I already started a thread involving this subject, and that this thread is pertaining to the 70 weeks not the NHNE?

 

[ewq1938]

This is not a bad argument.

Yet, most Premils, if not all Premils, insist Isaiah 65, which also involves NHNE, that that is meaning during the thousand years rather than after. I do not see it being reasonable in the least, that there can be two different NHNEs. one during the thousand years, and another one after the thousand years. There is zero reason to believe that the verses that follow Isaiah 65:17, that none of these things are involving the NHNE.

IMO the new covenant changed OT prophecy especially when new prophecy covering the same or similar events was given anew by NT prophets. The OT NHNE is not the NT NHNE and the two passages cannot be merged together or harmonized.

 

[ewq1938]

What does the sea symbolize, in your opinion?

Water.

 

[Zao is life]

Water.

Are you sure it isn't salt?

 

[Zao is life]

IMO the new covenant changed OT prophecy especially when new prophecy covering the same or similar events was given anew by NT prophets. The OT NHNE is not the NT NHNE and the two passages cannot be merged together or harmonized.

IMO then there is zero reason to believe in your imagined mortals in the millennium because it's not found in the New Testament and you have rejected one of the only passages that might support your claim (Isa.65:20).

 

[David in NJ]

Are you sure it isn't salt?

salt water = sea

sea = the nations

Dragon = satan

Beast rising up from the sea = Antichrist World Governing System = Empowered by Satan

Beast rising up from the earth = Antichrist / Man of sin

Revelation 7:15 = "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple."

Revelation 21:22 = "But I saw no temple in it(New Jerusalem), for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple."

 

[ewq1938]

IMO then there is zero reason to believe in your imagined mortals in the millennium because it's not found in the New Testament

It comes from the NT. Rev 2 and 19 both promise a rule over the nations (mortals) after the second coming. It cannot be denied, not without ignoring what is written.

 

[ewq1938]

Are you sure it isn't salt?

Yes, the sea is water. There's salt in it but the sea is water.

 

[Zao is life]

It comes from the NT. Rev 2 and 19 both promise a rule over the nations (mortals) after the second coming. It cannot be denied, not without ignoring what is written.

I don't ignore what is written brother. But you ignore the fact that only those who had gotten victory over the beast in Rev 20 and only those who overcome and remain faithful to death in Rev 2 are said to reign over the nations,

and only the disciples who forsook all to follow Jesus were said by Jesus to reign over the twelve tribes of Israel,

and you ignore the fact that the twelve tribes of Israel in Revelation 7 and in the millennium = all the saints, Jewish and Gentile in Christ (no more sea for the bride of Christ), and you ignore the fact that there are millions of saints who have died in Christ across time who neither had to forsake all to follow Him nor were martyred for their testimony.

And you ignore the fact that it was Adam and Eve who were tested in the Garden of Eden during the sabbath rest of God when Satan was permitted to test them to see whose word they would believe, and this took place when Adam and Eve were immortal, before they sinned and were prevented from eating of the tree of life.

And you ignore the fact that only those who had been martyred for their testimony to Christ are promised that the second death will have no authority over them.

As a result you believe that all the saints who will be resurrected are going to be running around chirping the odds to imagined mortals in the millennium, and the last pill you ever want to have to swallow is that the saints who had already been tested as to their faithfulness will be reigning over all the other resurrected saints - the twelve tribes of Israel - and there will be no mortals because mortals are not mentioned in the New Testament as being the nations who will be reigned over, so you and I might have others reigning over us.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, the sea is water. There's salt in it but the sea is water.

Yeah. No Jews and no Gentiles in Christ. No more death for the bride of Christ who have been resurrected and no more sea for them either, and it's said in the context of John seeing the bride, the Lamb's wife, New Jerusalem, the holy city - the city of resurrected saints - descending out of heaven from God.

But no need to bother about context when it suits us.

 

[Zao is life]

salt water = sea

sea = the nations

Dragon = satan

Beast rising up from the sea = Antichrist World Governing System = Empowered by Satan

Beast rising up from the earth = Antichrist / Man of sin

Revelation 7:15 = "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple."

Revelation 21:22 = "But I saw no temple in it(New Jerusalem), for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple."

No Jews and Gentiles in Christ after the resurrection = no more sea. Said in the context of John talking about the bride of Christ, the lamb's wife, New Jerusalem, the holy city descending from God out of heaven to the earth. No more death for resurrected saints either.

 

[Hobie]

That is a stronger point than there being no more death, because the verse where it says there will be no more death is linked to the previous verse whose subject is the bride of Christ.

Anyway, if we strip away the chapter divisions in the book of Revelation, there are noticeable themes that come up in different chapters, like this:

Revelation 19:10:
View attachment 39780

View attachment 39781

View attachment 39782

It doesn't seem to imply a new heavens and new earth following the thousand years, IMO. To me it implies both the NNNE and the millennium commencing at the same time.

Read your Bible as the New Jerusalem comes down after the 1000 Years...
The millennium is a 1,000-year period when the righteous will reign with Christ in heaven. Revelation 20:4
Judging the wicked dead will be part of the work of reigning with Christ. Revelation 20:6;
The millennial period is between the two resurrections. Revelation 20:4-6
Satan will be confined to earth during it. Revelation 20:1-3, 7
The earth will be desolate during this 1000 year period. Revelation 20:1
After the 1000 year millennium, Christ and the righteous will return to earth in the Holy City the New Jerusalem. The wicked will be resurrected at this time and Satan will lead them in an attack on the City. Finally all sin and sinners will be destroyed.

When Jesus comes at the end of the world to collect His Saints at the Second Coming, He gathers them together from all the parts of the earth. We see what Jesus told His disciples about His Second Coming:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31.


24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27.

When Jesus comes with power and glory at His second coming, the wicked will be anxious, perplexed, and they will be fearful of what is going to happen to them. The righteous, on the other hand, will look up to see Christ with great joy and happiness, as their redemption is near. The righteous will come from everywhere, as they are scattered over all the face of the earth, so His angels will gather His elect and bring them together when Christ comes and the trumpet sounds.

So, the living righteous will be brought together, what about those who are dead? Paul comforts the Christians in Thessalonica who were concerned that people were starting to die who had expected to see Jesus come in their life-time.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-14

So, Paul tells the Thessalonians that God will not forget those who have died. If we believe that Jesus has risen from the dead, we can believe that God will bring them with Him.It is clear from the next few verses that Jesus will not only take all the living elect, but He will also raise from the dead all of His saints who died, when He comes again, at His second coming, at the trump of God.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

Looking at verses 16 and 17, we see that Jesus Himself comes down from heaven at His second coming. This is the big event at the end of the world when Jesus comes to get His people and take them back with Him. With a shout of the archangel's voice and the trumpet of God, the dead in Christ rise up first. Then, all who are still alive in Christ, are brought up together with those who had died in the clouds and they meet the Lord in the air to be always with Him.

It is at the second coming of Jesus, the time of the end, when both those saints who died and those who are alive, will be taken up into heaven. So, it is clear that when Paul says in verse 14 that when Jesus comes again, even those who sleep in Jesus will God take back to heaven with Him and so will we ever be with the Lord!

Looking at 1 Corinthians, we find that Paul is consistent. Jesus is the first fruit of those who have fallen asleep in Jesus and here again Paul says that the dead in Christ will be raised at the time of His coming:

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

All who have died in Christ, shall be made alive at Christ's second coming. It doesn't happen before His coming at all.
So, scripture shows Jesus is taking all His people back to heaven. This marks the start of the 1000 years of the millennium which is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth.

Christ and the righteous will descend with the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21:1-5