Was Jesus a spirit being before coming to earth as a human?
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is Christ the King of Israel, yes or no?
Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”
Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
(John 18:37)
Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
(John 18:37)
any particular reason you would cut this verse out of your answer?
of course the Bible isn't contradicting itself!
and the only reconcilliation of these things is the 1st and the greatest of all the 11 mysteries, that of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, the hypostatic union.
welcome to trinitarianism.
welcome to actually believing the Bible, the whole Bible.
it warms my heart to see you discarding the disgusting heresy of watchtowerism and coming near the Truth
Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
and they saw the God of Israel.
(Exodus 24:9-10)
and they saw the God of Israel.
(Exodus 24:9-10)
Who did they see?
He is the image of the invisible God
(Colossians 1:15)
(Colossians 1:15)
he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father
(John 14:9)
they saw Christ: they saw God. Christ is God - the invisible made visible(John 14:9)
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
absolute rubbish.
that is a throughly discredited obvious lie you are repeating, from which you ought repent.
your open, continous, brazen blasphemy is abominable
Besides refusing to take into account the evidence set forth above, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have incorporated in their translation of the New Testament several quite erroneous renderings of the Greek.
1. In the New World Translation the opening verse of the Gospel according to John is mistranslated as follows: “Originally the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” A footnote which is added to the first word, “Originally,” reads, “Literally, In (At) a beginning.” By using here the indefinite article “a” the translators have overlooked the well-known fact that in Greek grammar nouns may be definite for various reasons, whether or not the Greek definite article is present. A prepositional phrase, for example, where the definite article is not expressed, can be quite definite in Greek, as in fact it is in John 1:1. The customary translation, “In the beginning was the Word,” is therefore to be preferred to either alternative suggested by the New World translators.
Far more pernicious in this same verse is the rendering, “… and the Word was a god,” with the following footnote: “‘A god.’ In contrast with ‘the God.’” It must be stated quite frankly that, if the Jehovah’s Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists. In view of the additional light which is available during this age of Grace, such a representation is even more reprehensible than were the heathenish, polytheistic errors into which ancient Israel was so prone to fall.
As a matter of solid fact, however, such a rendering is a frightful mistranslation. It overlooks entirely an established rule of Greek grammar which necessitates the rendering, “… and the Word was God.” Some years ago Dr. Ernest Cadman Colwell of the University of Chicago pointed out in a study of the Greek definite article that, “A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb. … The opening verse of John’s Gospel contains one of the many passages where this rule suggests the translation of a predicate as a definite noun. The absence of the article [before θεος] does not make the predicate indefinite or qualitative when it precedes the verb; it is indefinite in this position only when the context demands it. The context makes no such demand in the Gospel of John, for this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas [John 20:28, ‘My Lord and my God’].”
In a lengthy Appendix in the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ translation, which was added to support the mistranslation of John 1:1, there are quoted thirty-five other passages in John where the predicate noun has the definite article in Greek. These are intended to prove that the absence of the article in John 1:1 requires that θεος must be translated “a god.” None of the thirty-five instances is parallel, however, for in every case the predicate noun stands after the verb, and so, according to Colwell’s rule, properly has the article. So far, therefore, from being evidence against the usual translation of John 1:1, these instances add confirmation to the full enunciation of the rule of the Greek definite article.
Furthermore, the additional references quoted in the New World Translation from the Greek of the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, in order to give further support to the erroneous rendering in the opening verse of John, are exactly in conformity with Colwell’s rule, and therefore are added proof of the accuracy of the rule. The other passages adduced in the Appendix are, for one reason or another, not applicable to the question at issue. One must conclude, therefore, that no sound reason has been advanced for altering the traditional rendering of the opening verse of John’s Gospel, “… and the Word was God.”
1. In the New World Translation the opening verse of the Gospel according to John is mistranslated as follows: “Originally the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” A footnote which is added to the first word, “Originally,” reads, “Literally, In (At) a beginning.” By using here the indefinite article “a” the translators have overlooked the well-known fact that in Greek grammar nouns may be definite for various reasons, whether or not the Greek definite article is present. A prepositional phrase, for example, where the definite article is not expressed, can be quite definite in Greek, as in fact it is in John 1:1. The customary translation, “In the beginning was the Word,” is therefore to be preferred to either alternative suggested by the New World translators.
Far more pernicious in this same verse is the rendering, “… and the Word was a god,” with the following footnote: “‘A god.’ In contrast with ‘the God.’” It must be stated quite frankly that, if the Jehovah’s Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists. In view of the additional light which is available during this age of Grace, such a representation is even more reprehensible than were the heathenish, polytheistic errors into which ancient Israel was so prone to fall.
As a matter of solid fact, however, such a rendering is a frightful mistranslation. It overlooks entirely an established rule of Greek grammar which necessitates the rendering, “… and the Word was God.” Some years ago Dr. Ernest Cadman Colwell of the University of Chicago pointed out in a study of the Greek definite article that, “A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb. … The opening verse of John’s Gospel contains one of the many passages where this rule suggests the translation of a predicate as a definite noun. The absence of the article [before θεος] does not make the predicate indefinite or qualitative when it precedes the verb; it is indefinite in this position only when the context demands it. The context makes no such demand in the Gospel of John, for this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas [John 20:28, ‘My Lord and my God’].”
In a lengthy Appendix in the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ translation, which was added to support the mistranslation of John 1:1, there are quoted thirty-five other passages in John where the predicate noun has the definite article in Greek. These are intended to prove that the absence of the article in John 1:1 requires that θεος must be translated “a god.” None of the thirty-five instances is parallel, however, for in every case the predicate noun stands after the verb, and so, according to Colwell’s rule, properly has the article. So far, therefore, from being evidence against the usual translation of John 1:1, these instances add confirmation to the full enunciation of the rule of the Greek definite article.
Furthermore, the additional references quoted in the New World Translation from the Greek of the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, in order to give further support to the erroneous rendering in the opening verse of John, are exactly in conformity with Colwell’s rule, and therefore are added proof of the accuracy of the rule. The other passages adduced in the Appendix are, for one reason or another, not applicable to the question at issue. One must conclude, therefore, that no sound reason has been advanced for altering the traditional rendering of the opening verse of John’s Gospel, “… and the Word was God.”
- Bruce Metzger
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I didn't cut it out - I quoted verses 33-36 with no omissions. In verse 37 Jesus confirms that he is "a king", but he doesn't say that he is the king of Israel.
What Kingdom did Jesus preach about? It wasn't the kingdom of Israel. Here's a few clues:
Mark 1:14
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Luke 8:1And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,
Matthew 4:17From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
The phrase "kingdom of God" appears 70 times in the New Testament (KJV), and "kingdom of heaven" 33 times. Jesus never refers to himself as the king of Israel.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
He most certainly is King of Israel = the Israel of God.
Have you never read Galatians and Romans and Ephesians???
It is written: "the earth is My footstool." says the LORD.
@David in NJ Clearly this is in principle what the Lord Jesus taught in John 6.
ScottA
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Good!
Here is what I was responding to:
...But I do see that perhaps it was just to point out the distinction between the Father and the Son.
Nonetheless, John 1:1 is quite clear:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
Philip found Nathanael and said to him,
“We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote — Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
And Nathanael said to him,
“Can anything good come out of Nazareth?”
Philip said to him,
“Come and see.”
Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him,
“Behold! An Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!”
Nathanael said to Him,
“How do You know me?”
Jesus answered and said to him,
“Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.”
Nathanael answered and said to Him,
“Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
Jesus answered and said to him,
“Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”
And He said to him,
“Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”
(John 1:45-51)
“We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote — Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
And Nathanael said to him,
“Can anything good come out of Nazareth?”
Philip said to him,
“Come and see.”
Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him,
“Behold! An Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!”
Nathanael said to Him,
“How do You know me?”
Jesus answered and said to him,
“Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.”
Nathanael answered and said to Him,
“Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
Jesus answered and said to him,
“Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”
And He said to him,
“Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”
(John 1:45-51)
Nathanael, to Jesus: "You are THE KING OF ISRAEL!"
Jesus, to Nathanael in reply: "you believe"
Now when they drew near Jerusalem, and came to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them,
“Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The LORD has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.”
All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
“Tell the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold, your King is coming to you,
Lowly, and sitting on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.’ ”
(Matthew 21:1-5)
“Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The LORD has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.”
All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
“Tell the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold, your King is coming to you,
Lowly, and sitting on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.’ ”
(Matthew 21:1-5)
do you despise the Truth, keith?
is it because you cannot bear to hear it?
who does scripture say is The King of Israel ?
I am the LORD, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King!
(Isaiah 43:15)
Christ is God!(Isaiah 43:15)
it is indisputable!
you can lie all you want, but that doesn't make Him any less Divine!
let's all take a moment to remember who it is scripture describes as despising the fact that Christ is The King of Israel:
Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:
Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate,
“Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘He said, “I am the King of the Jews.” ’ ”
Pilate answered,
“What I have written, I have written.”
(John 19:19-22)
JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS
Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate,
“Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘He said, “I am the King of the Jews.” ’ ”
Pilate answered,
“What I have written, I have written.”
(John 19:19-22)
keith, your position leaves you only 2 logical options:
- Christ is THE KING OF ISRAEL = YHWH
- agree that He claims to be The King of Israel, equivallently claiming He is God - but call Christ a liar, thereby rejecting God & scripture altogether, and remain a watchtowerite, loving your deception rather than The Truth.
it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure
(Philippians 2:13)
- it is God in me who lives, not i
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me
(Galatians 2:20)
- it is Christ in me who lives, not i
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and the Spirit of God dwells in you?
(1 Corinthians 3:16)
- it is the Spirit of God in me who lives, not i
Q.E.D.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
They confuse the LORD in the OT with the Father and even in that the Father and the Son both interact as Echad Elohim.
ScottA
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Yes, and even in a very simple and logical sense...not considering Jesus as God leaves massive holes in a ton of scripture.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Yes Brother, this is why God gave an eternal commandment that most overlook and even dismiss.
This eternal commandment = Deuteronomy 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19
Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You must not add to or subtract from what I command you,
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book. He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Was Jesus a spirit being before coming to earth?
In the New Testament, that is after the crucifixion, Jesus informed two of His disciples where they were to resort to to discover who He was. Even though He was there in person and could 'teach' them the truth about Himself, that is not what He did.
KJV Luke 24:27
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Like I said earlier, to quote Isaiah,
KJV Isaiah 8:20
20 To the law (Moses) and to the testimony (the prophets) if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
If anyone, whether JW, the Pope, offers to teach us or anyone else the gospel, we are duty bound to compare their teaching with scripture.
KJV Acts 17:10-11
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
I have found nothing in scripture that supports the idea that Jesus was not a literal begotten Son of God prior to His incarnation, the express image of His Father. If the Son is an express image, a perfect reproduction, even more perfect than any human father/son similarity, how can He not be spirit, seeing God is a Spirit, therefore surely the Son is not only a spirit, but also God... Just as I am a human son to my human father. Like begets like. It's God's own law of reproduction.
In the New Testament, that is after the crucifixion, Jesus informed two of His disciples where they were to resort to to discover who He was. Even though He was there in person and could 'teach' them the truth about Himself, that is not what He did.
KJV Luke 24:27
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Like I said earlier, to quote Isaiah,
KJV Isaiah 8:20
20 To the law (Moses) and to the testimony (the prophets) if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
If anyone, whether JW, the Pope, offers to teach us or anyone else the gospel, we are duty bound to compare their teaching with scripture.
KJV Acts 17:10-11
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
I have found nothing in scripture that supports the idea that Jesus was not a literal begotten Son of God prior to His incarnation, the express image of His Father. If the Son is an express image, a perfect reproduction, even more perfect than any human father/son similarity, how can He not be spirit, seeing God is a Spirit, therefore surely the Son is not only a spirit, but also God... Just as I am a human son to my human father. Like begets like. It's God's own law of reproduction.
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