David in NJ
Well-Known Member
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
AMEN and HalleluYah
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John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
if you do not believe that I AM THAT I AM you will die in your sins
(John 8:24)
How can you draw that conclusion from that passage? There is no mention at all of the "Spirit". Jesus says that God was his father and the Jews erroneously thought that meant that he was claiming to be equal to God (Jesus has never claimed equality with God). If you were to claim that God is your Father, that does not mean that you are claiming to be equal to God or that you are God. The same applies to Jesus.Yashua(Jesus) said: John ch6
For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
No separation of Father and Son and Spirit
What translation is that? The only one that I can find that translates it that way is the Good News Bible, which I don't think is a good translation (it's certainly not accurate in translating this verse!). All other translations that I've checked say "I am" or "I am he". The meaning is like the NLT translates it:if you do not believe that I AM THAT I AM you will die in your sins
(John 8:24)
Why have you taken three words out of a verse only. This seems like deliberate sophistry.John 20:28-29 --
Thomas, describing Jesus: "my Lord and my God!"
Jesus, describing Thomas: "you have believed"
Q.E.D.
Why have you taken three words out of a verse only. This seems like deliberate sophistry.
What did Thomas believe? John 20 (WEB):
(25) The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
(27) Then he said to Thomas, “Reach here your finger, and see my hands. Reach here your hand, and put it into my side. Don’t be unbelieving, but believing.”
(29) Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed.”
Thomas refused to believe that Jesus was alive again, that he had been resurrected. After he saw the risen Jesus for himself, and the wounds in Jesus' hands and side, then he believed that Jesus was alive again. You have picked out a few words to blind us to the truth of the Scripture and to try and make it look as though Thomas believed that Jesus was God, whereas it's clear that the passage is talking about believing that Jesus had been resurrected.
How can you draw that conclusion from that passage? There is no mention at all of the "Spirit". Jesus says that God was his father and the Jews erroneously thought that meant that he was claiming to be equal to God (Jesus has never claimed equality with God). If you were to claim that God is your Father, that does not mean that you are claiming to be equal to God or that you are God. The same applies to Jesus.
Jesus says that God has committed all judgement of mankind (and the angels) to His Son, Jesus, and therefore everyone should honour His Son just as they honour God. God and His Son are obviously in agreement and harmony, but there is absolutely no indication whatsoever from this passage that Jesus is God, or that they are somehow joined (not separate beings).
Paul said that Christians (sharing in Jesus' kingdom rule) will judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:3). Does that mean all Christians are also God and not separate from God?!
Jesus said, after his resurrection, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth" (Matthew 28:18), which would definitely make him a god (a mighty being), so there was no reason to correct Thomas. It does not make Jesus to be the only true almighty God though. As Jesus said, in prayer to God, his Father, "This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3).Thomas calls Him God.
Jesus does not rebuke him, rather, Jesus says of him that he believes.
This either makes Jesus evil, or proves Jesus is God.
if you do not believe that I AM THAT I AM you will die in your sins
(John 8:24)
You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power;
for You created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created!
(Revelation 4:11)
the One who created all things and by whom all things exist is the One worshipped in heaven
who does scripture say that is?
For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by Him, and for Him
(Colossians 1:16)
Jesus Christ created all things, both heaven and earth.
all things that were created are created by and for Jesus Christ
He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature,
and upholds all things by the word of His power.
(Hebrews 1:3)
Jesus Christ is the invisible God made visible;
all things have their existence by His will
the throne in heaven is the throne of God and the Lamb ((Rev. 22:3))
one throne. one God: the invisbile Father and the visible Lamb and their Spirit
→ Christ is God
Behold!
The virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son,
and they shall call His name Immanuel,
which is translated, “God with us."
(Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23)
Christ is literally God with us.
did anyone call Him 'Immanuel' ?
no.
has Christianity since the very beginning called Him God?
yes.
does Christ claim to be equivalently God?
yes.
does the scripture call Him God?
yes.
did the apostles worship Him as God and witness this fact to others?
yes.
has Christianity since the begnning called anyone who denies this an heretic?
yes.
can you be a Christian and deny Christ's divinity?
no.
is the watchtower society a blasphemous non-Christian cult?
yes.
denying the divinity of Christ = you are not a Christian; you reject the Son and do not have the Father and call scripture a lie.
claiming to be Christian and denying the divinity of Christ makes you a liar.
Yah-shuah = Salvation = God with us
→ Christ is God
Jesus said, after his resurrection, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth" (Matthew 28:18), which would definitely make him a god (a mighty being), so there was no reason to correct Thomas. It does not make Jesus to be the only true almighty God though. As Jesus said, in prayer to God, his Father, "This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3).
As I wrote, there is no mention at all of the "Spirit" in the passage you quoted, so it is NOT "there".OH YES my Friend the SPIRIT is there - have you forgotten???
Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and resting on Him. 33I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’
34 I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”
Psalms 82:1,6-8 (WEB):Anyone who says Jesus is 'a god' is unlearned in the Scripture or has not been Born-Again by the SPIRIT or has been taught false doctrine.
SEE Post #227
Psalms 82:1,6-8 (WEB):
(1) A Psalm by Asaph. God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods.
(6) I said, “You are gods, all of you are sons of the Most High.
(7) Nevertheless you shall die like men, and fall like one of the rulers.”
(8) Arise, God, judge the earth, for you inherit all of the nations.
Who "inherits" the nations? I'd say that was God's Son, Jesus - he inherits the nations from God.
John 10:33-36 (WEB):
(33) The Jews answered him, “We don’t stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
(34) Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods?’
(35) If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can’t be broken),
(36) do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’
You're like those Jews, not believing Jesus' claim to be the Son of God, but instead thinking that he was claiming to be God - for which they wanted to stone him. Don't be like them - believe Jesus instead!
Exactly why can’t people understand this? Jesus never claimed to be God but the Sin of God.How can you draw that conclusion from that passage? There is no mention at all of the "Spirit". Jesus says that God was his father and the Jews erroneously thought that meant that he was claiming to be equal to God (Jesus has never claimed equality with God). If you were to claim that God is your Father, that does not mean that you are claiming to be equal to God or that you are God. The same applies to Jesus.
Jesus says that God has committed all judgement of mankind (and the angels) to His Son, Jesus, and therefore everyone should honour His Son just as they honour God. God and His Son are obviously in agreement and harmony, but there is absolutely no indication whatsoever from this passage that Jesus is God, or that they are somehow joined (not separate beings).
Paul said that Christians (sharing in Jesus' kingdom rule) will judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:3). Does that mean all Christians are also God and not separate from God?!
Exactly why can’t people understand this? Jesus never claimed to be God but the Sin of God.
Immanuel does not mean God came to be with us here, as a matter of fact He spoke from heaven at His son's baptism, rather it means He was with humans by providing the means for our redemption as Jn 3:16 which I am sure you can quote states.
which would definitely make him a god
Exactly why can’t people understand this? Jesus never claimed to be God but the Sin of God.