We are eternal beings!

[Aunty Jane]

I believe our soul is immortal because it is the breath of eternal God.

And yet there is no scripture that ever mentions an "immortal soul"...these two words do not exist, side by side in any passage of scripture...

Our identity in flesh is shed when we die.

That concept is missing from anything written by any Bible writer....and they were all Jewish. So this begs the question...what is the “soul” and what is the “spirit” from a Jewish understanding of those words? Some research will reveal that the propensity to blend these two words into one meaning is an error. These words do NOT mean the same thing at all.

The “soul” is the entire living, breathing entity....
Genesis 2:7 (ASV)....
“And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

Adam was not given a soul but “became” a “soul” when God started him breathing. It was his breath that animated his body and transformed his lifeless body into a “living soul”. The base meaning of the word “soul” in Hebrew is a “breather”. Therefor even animals are called “souls” in the Creation account.

Solomon lamented that humans had no advantage over the animals in death because the Jews did not believe in an immortal soul. They believed in resurrection, which is a return to life, not a continuation of it somewhere else.
He wrote...
“For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.” (NASB)

When Jesus’ friend Lazarus died and Jesus waited 4 days before going to him, he performed a resurrection, calling Lazarus from his grave, completely restored to life in the flesh. (John 11:11-14)
He promised to do the same again for all the dead who are redeemed by his sacrifice. (John 5:28-29)

The Bible never taught about an immortal soul....so the Jews had no belief in such a thing....therefore Jesus did not teach it....though he spoke often about the resurrection, performing them to show what was to take place under the rulership of his Kingdom over this earth.

I believe it is vanity of patriarchs drafting an extra gospel doctrine that insists we shall be here again.
Pride insists God,the supreme source in and of all existence continues our being was beyond this life and upon this world that is his creation. As if his kingdom must be made manifest here with us.
As if we are that important.

But first you have to understand what those Patriarchs believed about life and death.
It is a natural part of human expectation to go on living....we are not ‘programmed’ to die.....it is as foreign to our psyche today as it was in Eden. Death is the result of sin, which was never supposed to happen. No sin would have meant no death, as was indicated in God’s own words in Genesis 3:22-24...
“Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life." (NASB)

God's kingdom is all existence

God's Kingdom is actually God's rulership.....humankind lost that when they chose to obey the devil instead of their Creator. He allowed the devil a relatively free hand to test all of mankind as to whether they could be loyal to him or loyal to the rival "god" who had claimed the human race for himself.
The establishment of God's Kingdom, in the hands of his anointed Christ, will restore God's rulership over redeemed mankind, taking us back to his original purpose in Eden. The earth was supposed to be filled with the children of Adam and his wife who were to transform it into the most beautiful place to live, employing their God-given talents and creativity to make their surroundings look like Eden...it was the 'blueprint' for the rest of the world....but the devil abused his free will and derailed God's first purpose.....it did not destroy it however. God allowed the devil to do whatever he wished in order to prove that he was the better ruler and god of mankind....and here we are on the brink of extinction with powerful men bent on feeding corrupted egos, regardless of the cost to humanity....any wonder Jesus told us NOT to be any part of that. (John 18:36)

Our soul,as he tells us, returns to him. Because it is of and from him. And our body returns to the dust that is also God's creation. As is everything that exists.

Actually, its not the "soul" that returns to God...it is the "spirit" or the "breath of life".
Ecclesiastes 12:7 "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

The spirit returns to God in that only God can return the dead to life by restoring their breath in the resurrection. The dead are not conscious (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) because there is no immortal soul that leaves the body to go anywhere....that is a pagan Platonic Greek notion adopted by both the later Jews and also Christendom.
It is a satanic lie designed to perpetuate the lie he told in Eden..."you surely will not die". But what did God tell Adam? (Genesis 3:19)
No mention of heaven or hell....just the cessation of life...period....with a hope of the resurrection. (Acts 24:15)

Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

The word translated "creature" there is "neʹphesh" which according Strongs means...."soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion".....there is no mention of immortality there. The "soul" is the whole living, breathing creature.....both human and animals are "souls" in Genesis.

The life of humans returns to God in a symbolic way, and its flesh is buried in the dust from which it was made.
That is what I believe the scriptures teach.

 

[robert derrick]

And yet there is no scripture that ever mentions an "immortal soul"...these two words do not exist, side by side in any passage of scripture...

This is good discipline to be loyal to what is written, and not insert our own things. However, Scripture doesn't need to say immortal nor eternal soul, even as New Jerusalem is never called the Eternal City of God as men put it.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Souls in heaven at the altar, after departing from earth into the presence of the Lord.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried.

Souls in Abraham's bosom within the earth in site of hell.

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Jesus' soul in hell before the resurrection, preaching to the spirits in prison.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord.

The body is an earthen vessel and tabernacle and home for our soul while on earth.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The commandment in the garden shows that when a soul dies by sinning, it is immediate while the body remains on earth.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens.

The soul is living by the Spirit of Christ, and is dead without the Spirit of Christ and separated from God by sinning, even while the mortal body remains on earth. So to be consistent, if you are saying the soul does not exist when dead, then men would be without souls while on earth.

 

[Dropship]

God said to Jeremiah- "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" (Jeremiah 1:5) which begs the question- where exactly was Jeremiah and the rest of us before we were born?

 

[robert derrick]

God said to Jeremiah- "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" (Jeremiah 1:5) which begs the question- where exactly was Jeremiah and the rest of us before we were born?

The main point is that God knows us before putting us in the womb, which means we were with God before being in flesh and blood.

The where is in the lowest parts of the earth, where Christ creates all souls, beginning with the first Adam.

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

What Christ breathed into the mortal body of the man with His Spirit, was the soul of man, so that man became a living soul in mortal flesh. And it's still the same for all souls created by Christ and covered in the womb with mortal flesh.

The Psalmist is speaking as the spiritual man, whose substance is not flesh and blood, but the spiritual soul of man. He confirms this by speaking of what His soul knows, not what the carnal mind only acknowledges. The substance of man is His spiritual soul, not his body of flesh and blood, which is a mortal earthen vessel only made of natural dust.

God is telling all men in the OT, that Christ knows us personally, when making us spiritual beings and souls, and wrapping us in the womb. When God created man in His image, it was the soul with spiritual intelligence, not the mortal body of flesh, which is the same in nature as all living creatures on earth, but shaped differently.

Only man among angels in heaven and creatures on earth, is created with two natures: first that of the spiritual soul, and then that of mortal flesh. Bu mortal bodies, we are made a little lower than angels, and by the knowledge of our souls, we are made higher than all beasts of the field.

 

[robert derrick]

Much more comes from those who fail to interpret prophetic symbolism and allegory - some even think white and red corpuscles can actually speak LOL

The thing is that God has written Scripture in such as way as to leave no doubt, which is why we shouldn't put all our eggs into one verse.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Many not believing in the immortality of the soul, nor hell itself, also cast this off as symbolism, but then that makes two Scriptures to symbolize away.

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

And finally, to do so a 3rd time requires a complete rejection of Jesus' burial and resurrection from His body in the grave, and His soul in hell preaching to the spirits in prison. They would need to symbolize the soul of Christ Himself, even as they do the souls at the altar in heaven, and in hell.

The real point being that God has written Scripture in such a way as to take the crafty in their own craftiness: once one Scripture is altered to suit one's own teaching, then God as certain other Scriptures waiting to be altered also. It tests the honesty of the reader, to the point where they cross a line into rejection of Scripture itself. They are shown to have no honesty in interpretive teaching, but only pride in their own vain imaginations, that no Scripture of God is allowed to correct.

Those who symbolize away the immortality of souls, along with hell, are just false teachers of their own making.

The soul of Jesus went into hell for three days, while His body remained dead in the grave. Even as He prophesied He would. If it was just symbolic, then He was a false prophet.

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

People can argue about Jonas being in the belly of hell or not, but He certainly was in the whale's belly, and so Jesus's soul was certainly in the heart of the earth for three days, while His body was in the grave.

 

[Phoneman777]

The thing is that God has written Scripture in such as way as to leave no doubt, which is why we shouldn't put all our eggs into one verse.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Many not believing in the immortality of the soul, nor hell itself, also cast this off as symbolism, but then that makes two Scriptures to symbolize away.

The entire passage is symbolic, yet this is literal? Do the unresurrected dead have eyes, ears, tongues, or legs to carry a warning? Of course not, yet here Jesus mentions these dead as having just that...He's either LYING or He's telling us a PARABLE, right or wrong?

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

"HELL" here means "grave" or "place of the dead" aka "graveyard". It's not the fiery burning, blazing "Gehenna".

And finally, to do so a 3rd time requires a complete rejection of Jesus' burial and resurrection from His body in the grave, and His soul in hell preaching to the spirits in prison. They would need to symbolize the soul of Christ Himself, even as they do the souls at the altar in heaven, and in hell.

No text anywhere says "Jesus" preached to sinners in prison...it says the "Spirit of Jesus" aka "HOLY SPIRIT" preached to them, and it gives the context as to who these "prisoners" are: the Antediluvians. They, like many today, were in the "prison house of SIN" and mocked Noah and his family, yet God preached to them via the "Spirit of Jesus", the "Holy Spirit".

The real point being that God has written Scripture in such a way as to take the crafty in their own craftiness: once one Scripture is altered to suit one's own teaching, then God as certain other Scriptures waiting to be altered also. It tests the honesty of the reader, to the point where they cross a line into rejection of Scripture itself. They are shown to have no honesty in interpretive teaching, but only pride in their own vain imaginations, that no Scripture of God is allowed to correct. [/QUOTE] Yes, this is a very real problem today - Higher Criticism, Existentialism, Occultism (secret societies), etc., all twist Scripture to their "own destruction".

Those who symbolize away the immortality of souls, along with hell, are just false teachers of their own making.

Scripture says "God only hath immortality" which is why it also says we "seek for immortality", which we wouldn't be doing if the soul was already immortal in either heaven or hell. You don't seek for something you've already got, right or wrong?

The soul of Jesus went into hell for three days, while His body remained dead in the grave. Even as He prophesied He would. If it was just symbolic, then He was a false prophet.

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

People can argue about Jonas being in the belly of hell or not, but He certainly was in the whale's belly, and so Jesus's soul was certainly in the heart of the earth for three days, while His body was in the grave.

I've said over and over that humans don't "possess" a soul --- a human IS a soul, according to Genesis 2:7 KJV: "God formed man of the dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life, and man BECAME a living soul". Notice, it does NOT say "man was GIVEN AN IMMORTAL SOUL" - it says man BECAME a living soul - a soul that comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, and ceases to exist once the Breath of Life returns to God and the Body to the dust.

 

[Aunty Jane]

God said to Jeremiah- "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" (Jeremiah 1:5) which begs the question- where exactly was Jeremiah and the rest of us before we were born?

Before we were conceived, we did not exist....that scripture simply means that a few chosen individuals had a purpose to their life before they were born. God can see the future and he knows the past so he can bring souls into the world to fulfill his purpose if he chooses to. Jeremiah was one....John B is another....and of course Jesus who became the "Christ" is the best known of all.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is good discipline to be loyal to what is written, and not insert our own things. However, Scripture doesn't need to say immortal nor eternal soul, even as New Jerusalem is never called the Eternal City of God as men put it.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Souls in heaven at the altar, after departing from earth into the presence of the Lord.

Understanding this statement from the rest of Jesus' teachings, and from an understanding of the words used in the original languages of the Bible writers helps us to identify the truth rather than to read into statements of random verses, things that are simply not there.

e.g....what does the word "soul" mean in the Jewish understanding of the Bible writers?
The connotations that the English word “soul” commonly carries in the minds of most people are not in agreement with the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words as used by the inspired Bible writers.
The Hebrew word in question here is ‘Nefesh.’ Other translators have interpreted it to mean something that lives on after death, which is completely inaccurate. The Bible does not say we "have" a soul. ‘Nefesh’ is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being.....so an accurate understanding of biblical words clears up any misunderstanding.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried.

Souls in Abraham's bosom within the earth in site of hell.

Oh dear.....really? This is a parable that Jesus gave to highlight what the Jews were experiencing with regard to their leadership. If you read Matthew 23 you will see that Jesus did not have a good thing to say about those hypocritical frauds.

This parable was used to show that the rich man (who pictured the Pharisees) looked down on the hated "lost sheep" (pictured by the beggar.)
Both died to their former positions when Jesus came and preached the message of the Kingdom to those "lost sheep" (the "am ha-arets") whom the Pharisees despised and treated like dirt, failing to give them any spiritual nourishment. These responded to Jesus and in God's eyes the two traded places.

The "Bosom of Abraham" is a favored position with God. Those reclining at a meal in Bible times were said to be in the bosom position if they had gained the favor of the host. He would recline at his breast. (bosom)
Luke 6:24-25 speaks about such rich men, whereas Jesus mentioned those who were poor in more ways than one, in Matthew 5:3, 6.

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Jesus' soul in hell before the resurrection, preaching to the spirits in prison.

Again, a little research will reveal that this "hell" is not what Christendom teaches at all.
It is a quote from Psalm 16:10, which says....
"For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption." (NKJV)

Sheol is not "hell" but is translated in the Jewish Tanakh and the NKJV as "the grave".

Those in "sheol" are not conscious as Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10....(NKJV)
"For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten. . . . .

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave [sheol] where you are going."

You should make a search outside of your favored translations which do not render original language words correctly.
The "souls" in "sheol" sleep metaphorically speaking...there is no immortal soul to go anywhere but sheol, where the dead "rest in peace". They cannot work or plan or exercise wisdom or knowledge in the grave.

But Jesus used another word that is erroneously translated "hell"....that is "gehenna" and it doesn't mean a hell of eternal torment either.
Gehenna is a place where the dead go and do not return....it is "the second death" from which no resurrection is possible.
Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Continued....

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord.

The body is an earthen vessel and tabernacle and home for our soul while on earth.

Again this is the apostle Paul speaking of his fellow "elect". These alone will join Christ in his Kingdom as spirit beings, "born again" to take up their positions in heaven as "kings and priests" for redeemed mankind. These the Bible says will be resurrected "first". (Revelation 20:6)

Revelation speaks of the benefits that will come as a result of the rulership of the Kingdom.
Revelation 21:1-4....NKJV...
"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

This is the restoration of God's first purpose in Eden.....humans living forever in paradise on earth....with no more tears, sorrow or crying...and no more death....because "the former things have passed away"....This is the "new heavens and new earth" of which Peter spoke. (2 Peter 3:13)

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The commandment in the garden shows that when a soul dies by sinning, it is immediate while the body remains on earth.

Since the soul is the entire creature, the "soul" that sins will die. That is the whole person....it does not mean that a conscious part of man survives death....that is a satanic lie.
The devil told Eve..."you surely will not die"...but God told them that they would....who lied?

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens.

The soul is living by the Spirit of Christ, and is dead without the Spirit of Christ and separated from God by sinning, even while the mortal body remains on earth. So to be consistent, if you are saying the soul does not exist when dead, then men would be without souls while on earth.

Actually the soul that sins “dies” (Ezekiel 18:4)....it ceases to exist. There is no conscious part of man that survives death. Jesus taught resurrection, not immortality of the soul...that is a Platonic Greek notion that was adopted by both Judaism and apostate Christianity in later times. Immediate life after death was never a Jewish belief.....Jesus would therefore never have taught it.

Teaching that the soul is immortal means that you have to invent places for them to go when the body dies....the church got very inventive with that one....but if you read about the resurrection of Lazarus you will see exactly what a resurrection is. Lazarus' sister did not believe that he had gone to heaven and reiterated to Jesus her hope of the resurrection.....

John 11:11-15; John 11:20-25...NKJV...
"These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”. . . .

"20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

A resurrection is what Jesus performed.....he brought the dead man back to life....something he did with Jairus' daughter and also the widow's only son. He restored their life here on earth where God designed us to live forever. Earth was never meant to be a training ground for heaven.

When Jesus promised to resurrect all the dead he said...
John 5:28-29...
"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

He will call these ones from their graves.....something he could not do unless they were all still in them.

 

[robert derrick]

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man receives not the things of the spirit nor acknowledges the soul. The natural man of religion gives lip service to the soul, by making it mortal like flesh and blood. The end result is the same: There is only flesh and blood on earth, and what cannot be seen and heard and understood with a carnal mind only, must be a lie or symbolism only.

Do the unresurrected dead have eyes, ears, tongues, or legs to carry a warning?

The fact that you speak of legs, where Scripture does not, shows the spiritual man and body is foolishness to you, because there are ears, eyes, and tongues, but no legs. Afterall, all the world know bodies are made with legs.

However, you have stumbled into an understanding of mystery: The impassable fixed and great gulf between Lazarus in Abraham's bosom in hell, and the rich man in flames of hell, was not from some wall or great distance, since they could plainly see and talk with one another, but because they had no legs to walk and move from one place to another. The gulf was fixed between them, because they themselves were fixed in place where God put them. It was not a matter of distance, but of immobility.

I have often thanked others from inspiration of Scripture, by correcting their errors from Scripture, and so I thank you to.

The entire passage is symbolic,

So you say according to your teaching:

He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

This one Scripture show that even when speaking of a certain man, if it is parable only, He will say so.

To say one true account of a certain man is parable only, where Christ does not say so, is only to pick and choose for yourself which is which.

That includes the certain men from Zoah, from BehtlehemJudah, a son of a prophet, a rich man, a Samaritan, a younger son, etc...

If Jesus were only offering parables, without saying so, He would be a deceiver like the myth-makers. He would using symbology under guise of true events, to provoke other men into deeds that never happened. Plato calls them 'noble lies'.

Do the unresurrected dead have eyes, ears, tongues, or legs to carry a warning? Of course not, yet here Jesus mentions these dead as having just that...He's either LYING or He's telling us a PARABLE, right or wrong?

.

Yes, they do:

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Jesus did not say this was a parable of a certain man, as He did elsewhere. You do, but not Jesus. Unless you want to say Luke erred by not saying Jesus did call it a parable. That would mean that He did not hear the Lord rightly, and Scripture is therefore false.

yet here Jesus mentions these dead as having just that...He's either LYING or He's telling us a PARABLE, right or wrong?

.

And here we have you acknowledging exactly what He said, and saying Jesus was not meaning exactly what He said.

If it were a parable as with the certain man of the vineyard, He would have said so also for the certain rich man. The Lord is consistent in His manner of teaching:

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

"HELL" here means "grave" or "place of the dead" aka "graveyard". It's not the fiery burning, blazing "Gehenna"..

This is fascinating. You really are only the natural man, where even pagan Greeks have more spiritual sense than you. You also corrupt their spiritual theology, even as you do the spiritual doctrine of Christ.

Hades was the spiritual underworld of departed souls rule by the god Hades in the center of the earth, and the word was never used for the graveyard, nor memorial tomb. They were called shades, because they were souls without their dead bodies, and are now only in appearance like them.

Scriptures confirms their is a Hades, but not in the manner of pagan Greeks, but as being the hell all departed souls go to in the heart of the earth, while their dead bodies remain in graves and tombs of dirt. The Greeks were spiritually correct about immortal souls departing from their dead bodies into the heart of the earth, but were mythologically in error about the manner of it.

The only time Scripture calls Hades the grave, is when spoken of spiritually as a being:

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

You natural mind only acknowledges a dirtyard of graves.

No text anywhere says "Jesus" preached to sinners in prison...it says the "Spirit of Jesus" aka "HOLY SPIRIT" preached to them, and it gives the context as to who these "prisoners" are: the Antediluvians. They, like many today, were in the "prison house of SIN" and mocked Noah and his family, yet God preached to them via the "Spirit of Jesus", the "Holy Spirit".
.

And so we see the manner of them, that must change one Scripture to keep their own truth, in that you will have to change another and another:


For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus Himself, by His quickening Spirit, went into Hades and Hell, which is the heart of the earth. And He preached to all souls of men there, since they could all see and talk with one another as did Abraham and the rich man. He preached the righteous condemnation of the unbelieving unrighteous, and the righteous justification of them doing righteousness by faith. He did so for three days, while His dead body lay in an earthy sepulcher.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jesus' soul was in hell. You reject Scripture. By symbolizing this Scripture into parable only, you make Jesus a false prophet, who prophesied a symbolic thing, as though it were indeed true.

I've said over and over that humans don't "possess" a soul --- a human IS a soul, according to Genesis 2:7 KJV: "God formed man of the dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life, and man BECAME a living soul". Notice, it does NOT say "man was GIVEN AN IMMORTAL SOUL" - it says man BECAME a living soul - a soul that comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, and ceases to exist once the Breath of Life returns to God and the Body to the dust.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

His soul. My soul. We are souls first, and housed in earthen bodies second, and while yet in the flesh, we have souls.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

The substance of our soul is spiritual only, and the substance of our flesh is natural only. The soul is made by Christ alive in the lower earth, and the soul is covered in mortal flesh in the womb: the two are never the same.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The two can never be the same: the spirit is spiritual only and eternal, and the flesh is natural only and mortal. The perfected spiritual man will receive an immortal spiritual body, like unto the natural one earth in appearance only.

 

[robert derrick]

Scripture says "God only hath immortality"

Now this is the only honest challenge you make, rather than trying to teach Scripture according to your own doctrine. Well done.

Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Angels are immortal.

Man is only made a little lower than angels, by being covered in mortal flesh, unlike angels that are created with immortal spiritual bodies at the first. Gabriel and Michael are immortal created spiritual beings, even as the souls of men, and Lucifer will go alive into the lake of fire.

Jesus Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit is the only one true God that is immortal. All other gods are false.

Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

which is why it also says we "seek for immortality",

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.

Only the righteous seek immortality of the body, while the unrighteous don't seek immortality with God at all, nor even want to hear about it.

which we wouldn't be doing if the soul was already immortal in either heaven or hell. You don't seek for something you've already got, right or wrong?

The natural man has an immortal soul, but doesn't seek it nor Christ who created us immortal souls. Not seeking something to be true, doesn't mean it is not true, especially in the eternal spiritual things of God and the souls of men:

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Men neglect their own souls to their own hurt.

Souls are already immortal from creation. The souls on earth are not in heaven or hell yet.

Only the body is made immortal at the resurrection of the dead. The immortal soul is made perfect at the end of this life, and receives the resurrected immortal body at the end of this age, with the return of the Lord to earth.

 

[Phoneman777]

The fact that you speak of legs, where Scripture does not, shows the spiritual man and body is foolishness to you, because there are ears, eyes, and tongues, but no legs. Afterall, all the world know bodies are made with legs.

Not foolish..."legs" are implied, seeing that the Rich Man wanted Lazarus to carry a warning and how else would a thinking man presume that to happen? WALKING.

It was not a matter of distance, but of immobility.

Not so...a bipedal journey by Lazarus to warn the five brothers was prevented not by immobility, but a denial based on non-expediency - they have "Moses and the prophets" to hear.

To say one true account of a certain man is parable only, where Christ does not say so, is only to pick and choose for yourself which is which.

"All these things spake Jesus in a parable and without a parable spake He not unto them". Do you really think a dude completely engulfed in literal flames can carry on a conversation or that a drop of water would help? Do you think all the dead saints can fit in Abraham's bosom? How is it that the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham all have bodies BEFORE the distribution of the "house not made with hands eternal in the heavens" when Jesus comes back?

Don't come at me with any "oh, they have spiritual bodies" or you'll be as guilty of "natural man" thinking as you accuse me of being, seeing that the Bible only mentions TWO, NOT THREE, BUT TWO kinds of bodes, the "earthly house" and the one "eternal in the heavens".

If Jesus were only offering parables, without saying so, He would be a deceiver like the myth-makers. He would using symbology under guise of true events, to provoke other men into deeds that never happened. Plato calls them 'noble lies'.

It's not necessary for Jesus to tell us He's speaking in parable to know He's doing it - only necessary we have common sense.

CASE IN POINT:​

The disciples plainly show in Matthew 13:36 KJV they fully understood Jesus was speaking a parable in verse 30 without having to be told He was - they knew full well Jesus wasn't talking about sending angels with weedeaters to kill the crabgrass. Likewise, we should immediately recognize the Rich Man and Lazarus has nothing to do with what happens when we die seeing that the passage is entirely symbolic.​

Jesus did not say this was a parable of a certain man, as He did elsewhere.

"There was a CERTAIN rich man..." says the KJV. What version are you reading?

If it were a parable as with the certain man of the vineyard, He would have said so also for the certain rich man. The Lord is consistent in His manner of teaching:

That is the epitome of making a mountain of a molehill. Are you really going to argue that "certain man" and "certain rich man" determine what is and isn't a parable, and not consider the rest of the what is said? That's about as stubbornly rigid a criteria as I've ever heard. Yes, "consistency, thou art a jewel" but when Jesus presents such glaring inconsistencies as dead people having received their bodies BEFORE the resurrection, we know He's speaking in parable.

This is fascinating. You really are only the natural man, where even pagan Greeks have more spiritual sense than you. You also corrupt their spiritual theology, even as you do the spiritual doctrine of Christ.

Hades was the spiritual underworld of departed souls rule by the god Hades in the center of the earth, and the word was never used for the graveyard, nor memorial tomb. They were called shades, because they were souls without their dead bodies, and are now only in appearance like them.

Scriptures confirms their is a Hades, but not in the manner of pagan Greeks, but as being the hell all departed souls go to in the heart of the earth, while their dead bodies remain in graves and tombs of dirt. The Greeks were spiritually correct about immortal souls departing from their dead bodies into the heart of the earth, but were mythologically in error about the manner of it.

The only time Scripture calls Hades the grave, is when spoken of spiritually as a being:

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

You natural mind only acknowledges a dirtyard of graves.

Unlike you, I don't allow false Greek ideas to determine truth..."Hades" means "place of the dead" or "grave" or "underworld" which is where dead bodies go, right or wrong? It's YOU who allow satanic occult ideas about "natural immortality of the soul" to define what the word means. Why don't you believe that Jesus "alone hath immortality" and you and I must "seek for immortality"?

THOSE WHO CLAIM THEY ARE NOW IMMORTAL HAVE IDENTICAL ASPIRATIONS OF THE SERPENT: "Thou shalt not surely die...I will ascend into heaven. I will exalt my throne about the stars of God. I will sit also in the mount of the congregation in the sides of the North. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH."

Jesus didn't choose the fiery burning blazing "Gehenna" in this parable when He said "In hell he lifted up his eyes in torment..." He said, "hades" which is absolutely critical in correctly understanding that the "torment" of the "Rich Man" has nothing to do with literal flames, but something else. If you'd allow Jesus to interpret the parable for you by His words in another passage, then you'd know this to be true.

And so we see the manner of them, that must change one Scripture to keep their own truth, in that you will have to change another and another:
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus Himself, by His quickening Spirit, went into Hades and Hell, which is the heart of the earth. And He preached to all souls of men there, since they could all see and talk with one another as did Abraham and the rich man. He preached the righteous condemnation of the unbelieving unrighteous, and the righteous justification of them doing righteousness by faith. He did so for three days, while His dead body lay in an earthy sepulcher.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Jesus' soul was in hell. You reject Scripture. By symbolizing this Scripture into parable only, you make Jesus a false prophet, who prophesied a symbolic thing, as though it were indeed true.

This is a total subjective interpretation by one who HIMSELF is guilty of "changing" Scripture! We're plainly told the "spirits in prison" to which the Spirit of Jesus preached were those imprisoned back in Noah's day, not in His days of ministry, friend.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
His soul. My soul. We are souls first, and housed in earthen bodies second, and while yet in the flesh, we have souls.

So, "there wasn't one soul in the place" means "there wasn't one single disembodied ghost floating around in the place"l, right???? NO. It means there weren't any people, persons, men, women, children...entire human beings, which is how Genesis 2:7 KJV describes to us what is a Soul. "His soul was not left in hell is simply Peter's way of saying the man Jesus didn't stay dead in the tomb but rose victoriously, having conquered death.

Read Genesis 2:7 KJV and you'll see Adam was not given a soul to possess, but Adam BECAME a soul, understand? The Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

The substance of our soul is spiritual only,

A "Soul" is comprised of two things, the Body and the Breath of Life, and I defy you or any man to deny Genesis 2:7 KJV which says that exact same thing.

 

[Phoneman777]

Now this is the only honest challenge you make, rather than trying to teach Scripture according to your own doctrine. Well done.

Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

So far, you've accused me of being a "natural man" and now rarely "honest". Can you please stop with the insults and just defend your position? Good gravy!

Angels are immortal.

No, as "the dragon and his angels" will soon demonstrate when they go for a swim in Fire Lake.

Man is only made a little lower than angels, by being covered in mortal flesh, unlike angels that are created with immortal spiritual bodies at the first. Gabriel and Michael are immortal created spiritual beings, even as the souls of men, and Lucifer will go alive into the lake of fire.

So, "only" doesn't mean "only" anymore? God "alone" does NOT have immortality? I'll stick with Scripture. "Jesus ONLY hath immortality" and you and I must "seek for immortality" which means WE AIN'T YET GOT IT.

Only the righteous seek immortality of the body, while the unrighteous don't seek immortality with God at all, nor even want to hear about it.

No no, you don't get to qualify Paul's statement with "the body" as if this immortality we seek has to do with flesh and bones, while our "souls" are already immortal to either praise God or suffer in flames for eternity.

The natural man has an immortal soul

Let's see if Ezekiel and Jesus agree with that:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE."

"Rather fear him who can DESTROY both soul and body in hell".

Only the body is made immortal at the resurrection of the dead. The immortal soul is made perfect at the end of this life, and receives the resurrected immortal body at the end of this age, with the return of the Lord to earth.

Bulldookey. The soul that continues to sin shall die in the Lake of Fire, not live. What a shame I have to argue with people that death is the opposite of life, not a continuation thereof.[/QUOTE]

 

[robert derrick]

Not foolish..."legs" are implied, seeing that the Rich Man wanted Lazarus to carry a warning and how else would a thinking man presume that to happen? WALKING..

Your words are in bold black to make it easier to respond in detail:

Not foolish..."legs" are implied, seeing that the Rich Man wanted Lazarus to carry a warning and how else would a thinking man presume that to happen? WALKING.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The legs would have to be that of a resurrected man, as Abraham says. Not the soul in hell, while the body is dead in the grave.

"All these things spake Jesus in a parable and without a parable spake He not unto them".

And so, you prove the point: you will apply a Scripture in Matthew to that of Luke, and so you will apply it to any Scripture that suits you.

Do you think all the dead saints can fit in Abraham's bosom?

Only a carnal mind would thing like this, because they only reality you know is flesh and blood, and so you compare all things to flesh and blood, rather than be instructed in the things that flesh and blood cannot comprehend.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

How is it that the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham all have bodies BEFORE the distribution of the "house not made with hands eternal in the heavens" when Jesus comes back?

Because their bodies weren't dead yet.

The house of David's tabernacle is now being built in the body and church of Jesus Christ, which is the spiritually clean souls of them do righteousness in the flesh.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Only at His return with the house fully built, will they be resurrected with immortal spiritual bodies to meet Him in the air.

Don't come at me with any "oh, they have spiritual bodies" or you'll be as guilty of "natural man" thinking as you accuse me of being, seeing that the Bible only mentions TWO, NOT THREE, BUT TWO kinds of bodies, the "earthly house" and the one "eternal in the heavens".

Partly True. There are eternal spiritual bodies and mortal natural bodies. Both angels and men are created spiritual beings in the image of God, with the angels first in spiritual bodies, and men first with natural bodies.

Man is the only creature of God makes with two natures: spiritual souls in natural flesh. Angels have no mortal bodies, and other creatures of flesh have spirits for life, but have no spiritual souls.

It's not necessary for Jesus to tell us He's speaking in parable to know He's doing it - only necessary we have common sense.

Yes it is, because He does every time. There is never a parable, where scripture does not say so.

​

The disciples plainly show in Matthew 13:36 KJV they fully understood Jesus was speaking a parable in verse 30 without having to be told He was - they knew full well Jesus wasn't talking about sending angels with weedeaters to kill the crabgrass.

Once again, Scripture says in the beginning, that these would be parables.

Likewise, we should immediately recognize the Rich Man and Lazarus has nothing to do with what happens when we die seeing that the passage is entirely symbolic.

You will, not me. Speak for yourself.

No Scripture in Luke speaks of parables about the certain rich man and Lazarus. You can choose any Scripture you like to be a parable only, but unless Scripture says so, it's not.
​

"There was a CERTAIN rich man..." says the KJV. What version are you reading?
That is the epitome of making a mountain of a molehill. Are you really going to argue that "certain man" and "certain rich man" determine what is and isn't a parable, and not consider the rest of the what is said? That's about as stubbornly rigid a criteria as I've ever heard.

Not surprising you overlook the point made. Jesus spoke of a parable with a certain man. Therefore, not all certain men are real events, but all parables will be identified as parables, whether that of a certain vineyarder or some sower.

Yes, "consistency, thou art a jewel" but when Jesus presents such glaring inconsistencies as dead people having received their bodies BEFORE the resurrection, we know He's speaking in parable.

And once again. Jesus must be wrong, because your teaching says otherwise.

He never spoke of them having their spiritual bodies, which is not until the resurrection. It's probably not possible for you to just read what is written.

 

[robert derrick]

Not foolish...

Your words in bold italics again:

Unlike you, I don't allow false Greek ideas to determine truth..."Hades" means "place of the dead" or "grave" or "underworld" which is where dead bodies go, right or wrong?

The flood of Gilgamesh does not disprove the flood of Noah, and the underworld of souls in Greek spiritual theology does not disprove souls departed from their dead bodies into the center of the earth.

Scripture confirms both the flood and Hades, and corrects the mythological errors, to show the true manner of them both.

It's YOU who allow satanic occult ideas about "natural immortality of the soul" to define what the word means.

Don't be purposely ignorant. Sincere ignorance can be fun, but not purposed lies. I have never even heard of the 'natural immortality of the soul', until now, and I teach by Scripture the impossibility of it, since spirit cannot be flesh, and flesh cannot be spirit. And of course, you overlook that as well.

You show you know only natural things, so when anyone speaks of immortality, you think it must be of the flesh.

Why don't you believe that Jesus "alone hath immortality" and you and I must "seek for immortality"?

Jesus was not an immortal man.

His soul was the immortal God, and our souls are made immortally in His image. The only immortal man is now the man Christ Jesus, until the resurrection of His church from the dead. That is when perfected righteous souls will be immortal men in the likeness of Christ.

THOSE WHO CLAIM THEY ARE NOW IMMORTAL HAVE IDENTICAL ASPIRATIONS OF THE SERPENT: "Thou shalt not surely die...I will ascend into heaven. I will exalt my throne about the stars of God. I will sit also in the mount of the congregation in the sides of the North. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH."

Immortality, like greatness, does not guarantee anything good. There is great good and great evil, and there is immortality in the light with God, and immortality in the blackness of darkness forever:

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Nothing in Jude about parable, allegory, nor symbolism, even as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cites round about were not.

The vain aspiration is to be immortal in one's own right with one's own law for good and evil, no matter what the only true God says and does.

Jesus didn't choose the fiery burning blazing "Gehenna" in this parable

No parable.

when He said "In hell he lifted up his eyes in torment..." He said, "hades" which is absolutely critical in correctly understanding that the "torment" of the "Rich Man" has nothing to do with literal flames, but something else.

Right. Must be something else then being tormented this flame, than this flame.

If you'd allow Jesus to interpret the parable for you by His words in another passage, then you'd know this to be true.

You mean allow you too. Not happening.

We're plainly told the "spirits in prison" to which the Spirit of Jesus preached were those imprisoned back in Noah's day, not in His days of ministry, friend.

You are straining at gnats and swallowing camels. The argument is not about who the spirits in prison were, but Who preached to them. Scripture proves Jesus did by the Spirit, which He prophesied He Himself would be there three days, while His body was in the grave, while His soul was in hell.

"His soul was not left in hell is simply Peter's way of saying the man Jesus didn't stay dead in the tomb but rose victoriously, having conquered death.

Spoken like a true natural man. You see Scripture as Moses' or Peter's way of saying something, not God's word given them to write, exactly as He says it:

And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.

God has written Scripture in such a way as to expose the crafty. For OSAS it's James 2:17 & 24, and for you it's Psalm 16:10 & Acts 2:27.

Read Genesis 2:7 KJV and you'll see Adam was not given a soul to possess, but Adam BECAME a soul, understand? The Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.

The body isn't given anything to possess, but a body is given to souls of men to posses in honor:

That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour.

A "Soul" is comprised of two things, the Body and the Breath of Life, and I defy you or any man to deny Genesis 2:7 KJV which says that exact same thing.

The substance of a soul is one thing only: the spiritual image of Christ.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

The flesh in the womb was not wrought in the lowest parts of the earth, but in the womb, even as was the body of flesh prepared for the soul of Jesus by the Holy Ghost in the womb of Mary.

 

[robert derrick]

So far, you've accused me of being a "natural man" and now rarely "honest". Can you please stop with the insults and just defend your position? Good gravy!

[/QUOTE]
You in italics bold again:

No, as "the dragon and his angels" will soon demonstrate when they go for a swim in Fire Lake.

And the souls whose names are not written in the book of life.

You teach oblivion or glory. It's the failsafe doctrine for the unrighteous.

No no, you don't get to qualify Paul's statement with "the body" as if this immortality we seek has to do with flesh and bones, while our "souls" are already immortal to either praise God or suffer in flames for eternity.

Yes, yes, I do. We receive a body resurrected immortal, if we are blameless in His presence at the death of our natural body. If not, we have immortality in dark blackness forever.

Let's see if Ezekiel and Jesus agree with that:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE."

Separated spiritually from God. Immortal but dead, even as the mortal body remains on earth. If spiritually dead at the end of this life, then dead and ashamed forever.

The naturally body dies, because it's made mortal by Christ, not because of the soul winning with it against Christ.

"Rather fear him who can DESTROY both soul and body in hell".
Bulldookey. The soul that continues to sin shall die in the Lake of Fire, not live. What a shame I have to argue with people that death is the opposite of life, not a continuation thereof.

As I said, you want to believe oblivion or glory.

 

[Phoneman777]

Your words are in bold black to make it easier to respond in detail:

Not foolish..."legs" are implied, seeing that the Rich Man wanted Lazarus to carry a warning and how else would a thinking man presume that to happen? WALKING.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The legs would have to be that of a resurrected man, as Abraham says. Not the soul in hell, while the body is dead in the grave.

First of all, there's no such thing as a "soul in hell while the body is dead in the grave" because the Soul can only exist AS A CONSEQUENCE of the UNION of the body and the breath of life. Second of all, it just stands to reason that if these men have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, they've got legs, as well.

"All these things spake Jesus in a parable and without a parable spake He not unto them".

And so, you prove the point: you will apply a Scripture in Matthew to that of Luke, and so you will apply it to any Scripture that suits you.

Yes, that's called "sound exegesis/hermeneutics". I thank you for your thoughts, friend.

 

[Phoneman777]

Your words in bold italics again:

Unlike you, I don't allow false Greek ideas to determine truth..."Hades" means "place of the dead" or "grave" or "underworld" which is where dead bodies go, right or wrong?

The flood of Gilgamesh does not disprove the flood of Noah, and the underworld of souls in Greek spiritual theology does not disprove souls departed from their dead bodies into the center of the earth.

Scripture confirms both the flood and Hades, and corrects the mythological errors, to show the true manner of them both.

It's YOU who allow satanic occult ideas about "natural immortality of the soul" to define what the word means.

Don't be purposely ignorant. Sincere ignorance can be fun, but not purposed lies. I have never even heard of the 'natural immortality of the soul', until now, and I teach by Scripture the impossibility of it, since spirit cannot be flesh, and flesh cannot be spirit. And of course, you overlook that as well.

You show you know only natural things, so when anyone speaks of immortality, you think it must be of the flesh.

Why don't you believe that Jesus "alone hath immortality" and you and I must "seek for immortality"?

Jesus was not an immortal man.

His soul was the immortal God, and our souls are made immortally in His image. The only immortal man is now the man Christ Jesus, until the resurrection of His church from the dead. That is when perfected righteous souls will be immortal men in the likeness of Christ.

THOSE WHO CLAIM THEY ARE NOW IMMORTAL HAVE IDENTICAL ASPIRATIONS OF THE SERPENT: "Thou shalt not surely die...I will ascend into heaven. I will exalt my throne about the stars of God. I will sit also in the mount of the congregation in the sides of the North. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH."

Immortality, like greatness, does not guarantee anything good. There is great good and great evil, and there is immortality in the light with God, and immortality in the blackness of darkness forever:

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Nothing in Jude about parable, allegory, nor symbolism, even as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cites round about were not.

The vain aspiration is to be immortal in one's own right with one's own law for good and evil, no matter what the only true God says and does.

Jesus didn't choose the fiery burning blazing "Gehenna" in this parable

No parable.

when He said "In hell he lifted up his eyes in torment..." He said, "hades" which is absolutely critical in correctly understanding that the "torment" of the "Rich Man" has nothing to do with literal flames, but something else.

Right. Must be something else then being tormented this flame, than this flame.

If you'd allow Jesus to interpret the parable for you by His words in another passage, then you'd know this to be true.

You mean allow you too. Not happening.

We're plainly told the "spirits in prison" to which the Spirit of Jesus preached were those imprisoned back in Noah's day, not in His days of ministry, friend.

You are straining at gnats and swallowing camels. The argument is not about who the spirits in prison were, but Who preached to them. Scripture proves Jesus did by the Spirit, which He prophesied He Himself would be there three days, while His body was in the grave, while His soul was in hell.

"His soul was not left in hell is simply Peter's way of saying the man Jesus didn't stay dead in the tomb but rose victoriously, having conquered death.

Spoken like a true natural man. You see Scripture as Moses' or Peter's way of saying something, not God's word given them to write, exactly as He says it:

And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.

God has written Scripture in such a way as to expose the crafty. For OSAS it's James 2:17 & 24, and for you it's Psalm 16:10 & Acts 2:27.

Read Genesis 2:7 KJV and you'll see Adam was not given a soul to possess, but Adam BECAME a soul, understand? The Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.

The body isn't given anything to possess, but a body is given to souls of men to posses in honor:

That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour.

A "Soul" is comprised of two things, the Body and the Breath of Life, and I defy you or any man to deny Genesis 2:7 KJV which says that exact same thing.

The substance of a soul is one thing only: the spiritual image of Christ.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

The flesh in the womb was not wrought in the lowest parts of the earth, but in the womb, even as was the body of flesh prepared for the soul of Jesus by the Holy Ghost in the womb of Mary.

Believe what you want, friend. My Bible tells me that if anyone appears to me from the dead claiming to be a relative or "familiar spirit" I'll know they are a deception from the pits of hell and not be deceived. You, however, I fear for.

 

[Phoneman777]

Separated spiritually from God. Immortal but dead, even as the mortal body remains on earth. If spiritually dead at the end of this life, then dead and ashamed forever.

Yes, I've heard that satanic lie before that "death is conscious eternal separation from God"... NO, death is the opposite of life, the absence of life, the cessation of life, not a continuation thereof.

 

[Phoneman777]

You in italics bold again:

No, as "the dragon and his angels" will soon demonstrate when they go for a swim in Fire Lake.

And the souls whose names are not written in the book of life.

Don't deflect. You said "angels are immortal" and I proved you wrong, further disproving you with Ezekiel's words: "And never shalt thou (Satan) BE anymore". The devil is not going to "be" or "exist" anymore, understand? Angels are not immortal because God is He "Who only hath immortality".

You teach oblivion or glory. It's the failsafe doctrine for the unrighteous.

You teach innate immortality of some non-existent disembodied soul, which is a Satanic lie, for it was the serpent who told the first lie in Scripture, "Thou shalt not surely die".

Phoneman said:
No no, you don't get to qualify Paul's statement with "the body" as if this immortality we seek has to do with flesh and bones, while our "souls" are already immortal to either praise God or suffer in flames for eternity.
Yes, yes, I do. We receive a body resurrected immortal, if we are blameless in His presence at the death of our natural body. If not, we have immortality in dark blackness forever.

No, you don't. Death is the absence of life, not a continuation thereof. I've already showed you where Ezekiel tells us plainly "the soul that sinneth shall die". James says God will "save a soul from death". You can't point to a single scripture limiting death to "eternal separation" - the separation is due to the sinner being blotted out of existence. Read where Obadiah says the wicked shall "be as though they had not been". Understand? They're going to revert back to non-existence.

Phoneman said: Let's see if Ezekiel and Jesus agree with that: "The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE."

Separated spiritually from God. Immortal but dead, even as the mortal body remains on earth. If spiritually dead at the end of this life, then dead and ashamed forever. The naturally body dies, because it's made mortal by Christ, not because of the soul winning with it against Christ.

You desperately avoid being confronted with Genesis 2:7 KJV, but don't worry, I'll keep putting it before you:

"God formed man (BODY) of the dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life (Spirit of Life) and man BECAME a living SOUL".​

Got it? Do you understand simple math? 1 + 1 = 2?
BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL
BODY - BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD SOUL

See that? The SOUL comes into existence ONLY AS A CONSEQUENCE of the union of the Body and Breath of Life and exists only as long as this union prevails. At death, the body returns to the dust, the Spirit returns to God Who gave it, and the Soul passes out of existence. Nothing left but for you to accept the truth.

You can ignore it, but you can't escape it. You think you're immortal like God? All who do so will have a rude awakening.

Phoneman said:
"Rather fear him who can DESTROY both soul and body in hell".
Bulldookey. The soul that continues to sin shall die in the Lake of Fire, not live. What a shame I have to argue with people that death is the opposite of life, not a continuation thereof.

As I said, you want to believe oblivion or glory.

That's what Scripture teaches - Life or death, blessings or cursings - these things are opposites, right? If only you'd believe the words of John when he says "the former things are passed away" - and what things? Death, suffering, crying, pain...all which YOU CLAIM will not pass away, but continue for all eternity. Open your eyes to the truth and discard the lies of the serpent in Eden, friend.