We are eternal beings!

[Phoneman777]

I believe our soul is immortal because it is the breath of eternal God.

So, the "Breath of Life" and the "Soul" are identical?

 

[Phoneman777]

The wicked are not "eternal beings" - sin and sinners will not be immortalized. They will pass away into nonexistence.

"And the world passeth away and the lust thereof, but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever".
"For the former things (death, sorrow, crying, suffering, pain) are passed away".
"They (the wicked) shall be as though they had not been."
"And never shalt thou (Satan) be anymore".
"Yet a little while and the wicked shall not be...but the meek shall inherit the Earth".
"They will sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, Whose name is the Lord of hosts".
"Consider me, and hear me, O my God; lighten mine eyes lest I sleep the sleep of death."

• You and I are NOT immortal, for God "only hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16 KJV).

• The devil wants to be immortal and has convinced countless members of occult societies he is immortal and human have innate immortality, as well. He's convinced Christians of this lie, as well.

• You want to be immortal? Romans 2 says we must "seek for glory, honor, and immortality" if we are to find it. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SEEK FOR SOMETHING YOU ALREADY HAVE, RIGHT OR WRONG?

 

[robert derrick]

Don't deflect. .

Don't deflect. You said "angels are immortal" and I proved you wrong, further disproving you with Ezekiel's words: "And never shalt thou (Satan) BE anymore".

All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The time will come when the devil shall no more be a terror to anyone anymore. The first time will be for a thousand years, and then the last time will be forever in the lake of fire and darkness of blackness away from the new heaven and earth.

You read your own teaching of oblivion or heaven into every Scripture you touch.

The devil is not going to "be" or "exist" anymore, understand?

They go into the lake of fire and the smoke of their torment is forever, and all your symbolic king's horses and men, can't make it oblivion.

I understand your false doctrine of oblivion or heaven perfectly.

Angels are not immortal because God is He "Who only hath immortality".

And the souls of men are made in His image and after His likeness, which is spiritual immortality.

You teach innate immortality of some non-existent disembodied soul, which is a Satanic lie, for it was the serpent who told the first lie in Scripture, "Thou shalt not surely die".

Christ creates every soul in His own image: Spiritually eternal beings with power to choose good or evil. If we choose good unto the end, we abide with Him forever, if we choose evil unto the end, we abide in spiritual death and darkness forever.

No, you don't. Death is the absence of life, not a continuation thereof.

Your natural humanism is not the foundation of God's word. Souls are created spiritually alive by Christ to please Him forever. If the soul sins, then that soul dies to Christ, and without repentance and forgiveness, the soul is dead to Christ forever unto eternal shame.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

And, your natrualist pride rejects any Scripture that says otherwise.

I've already showed you where Ezekiel tells us plainly "the soul that sinneth shall die". James says God will "save a soul from death".

The sinning dead soul is saved from death and separation from God, and is restored to fellowship and life with God in the Light.

You can't point to a single scripture limiting death to "eternal separation" -

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Not that it matters to you, since you reject any Scripture you don't like.

the separation is due to the sinner being blotted out of existence.

Oblivion or heaven fearful theology.

Read where Obadiah says the wicked shall "be as though they had not been". Understand? They're going to revert back to non-existence.

For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

Once again, inserting your own doctrine into Scripture for your own outcome. You bypass common sense reading of words, which plainly say they will be forgotten, as though they had never been in the first place.

They will be forgotten by the living on earth, as well as the living in eternity, because they will be resurrected unto eternal shame in blackness apart from the new heaven and earth.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Got it? Do you understand simple math? 1 + 1 = 2?
BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL
BODY - BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD SOUL

1 in 1 = One eternal soul in one mortal body.

The created christ believers use your same math also. Natural minds think naturally the same.

See that? The SOUL comes into existence ONLY AS A CONSEQUENCE of the union of the Body and Breath of Life and exists only as long as this union prevails.

Every soul is created in the lower earth, and then covered in the womb with a body of mortal flesh.

At death, the body returns to the dust, the Spirit returns to God Who gave it, and the Soul passes out of existence. Nothing left but for you to accept the truth.

All souls departing this life first went to hell, either in flames or in Abraham's bosom. Now that Jesus Christ went into hell to lead Abraham's captivity captive into heaven, then all souls either go to hell in flames, or into the presence of the Lord at the altar of God in heaven.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

I like my teaching of what is written in Scripture. You can keep your natural stuff.

You think you're immortal like God?

My soul is immortal, and was like God in the image of Christ, when He made me, but since then I sinned, and so I was no longer like God, but now am reborn into His image again.

All angels and souls of men are made immortal by Christ in His image, but not all angels and souls of men are like Him in righteousness, nor conformed to His image.

That's what Scripture teaches - Life or death, blessings or cursings - these things are opposites, right? If only you'd believe the words of John when he says "the former things are passed away" - and what things? Death, suffering, crying, pain...all which YOU CLAIM will not pass away.

As usual, those who twist Scripture of God, have no problem twisting the words of others.

All those in the eternal future will forget all pain and sufferings of their past, as though they never happened, and all the wicked dead will be forgotten, as though they never existed. But the wicked dead will have eternity in black darkness of torment, to remember everything exactly as they did certainly happen, with no more lies and no more chance to repent of their own lies:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lie of oblivion is delusional, because oblivion means nothing ever happened. Those souls and the lives they live never occurred in the first place.

But the books of man's works will forever say different, especially those names mentioned in any Scripture of Christ ever written, whether for good or for evil.

In the end, there are always one or two Scriptures that must be rejected outright, in order to keep believing one's own lies, and once they are reject, all other Scripture must be twisted and changed and misread accordingly.

For OSAS believers, that is James 2:14 & 24: They make their own faith their own power to go to heaven by.

For the created christ believers, that is John 1.1 and I John 5:20: They make Jesus Christ into a deified god.

For mortal soul believers, that is Matthew 12:40 & Acts 2:31: They make Jesus a false prophet and myth-maker, teaching parables as though they were true accounts.

 

[Phoneman777]

Don't deflect. You said "angels are immortal" and I proved you wrong, further disproving you with Ezekiel's words: "And never shalt thou (Satan) BE anymore".

All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The time will come when the devil shall no more be a terror to anyone anymore. The first time will be for a thousand years, and then the last time will be forever in the lake of fire and darkness of blackness away from the new heaven and earth.

You read your own teaching of oblivion or heaven into every Scripture you touch.

The devil is not going to "be" or "exist" anymore, understand?

They go into the lake of fire and the smoke of their torment is forever, and all your symbolic king's horses and men, can't make it oblivion.

I understand your false doctrine of oblivion or heaven perfectly.

Angels are not immortal because God is He "Who only hath immortality".

And the souls of men are made in His image and after His likeness, which is spiritual immortality.

You teach innate immortality of some non-existent disembodied soul, which is a Satanic lie, for it was the serpent who told the first lie in Scripture, "Thou shalt not surely die".

Christ creates every soul in His own image: Spiritually eternal beings with power to choose good or evil. If we choose good unto the end, we abide with Him forever, if we choose evil unto the end, we abide in spiritual death and darkness forever.

No, you don't. Death is the absence of life, not a continuation thereof.

Your natural humanism is not the foundation of God's word. Souls are created spiritually alive by Christ to please Him forever. If the soul sins, then that soul dies to Christ, and without repentance and forgiveness, the soul is dead to Christ forever unto eternal shame.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

And, your natrualist pride rejects any Scripture that says otherwise.

I've already showed you where Ezekiel tells us plainly "the soul that sinneth shall die". James says God will "save a soul from death".

The sinning dead soul is saved from death and separation from God, and is restored to fellowship and life with God in the Light.

You can't point to a single scripture limiting death to "eternal separation" -

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Not that it matters to you, since you reject any Scripture you don't like.

the separation is due to the sinner being blotted out of existence.

Oblivion or heaven fearful theology.

Read where Obadiah says the wicked shall "be as though they had not been". Understand? They're going to revert back to non-existence.

For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

Once again, inserting your own doctrine into Scripture for your own outcome. You bypass common sense reading of words, which plainly say they will be forgotten, as though they had never been in the first place.

They will be forgotten by the living on earth, as well as the living in eternity, because they will be resurrected unto eternal shame in blackness apart from the new heaven and earth.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Got it? Do you understand simple math? 1 + 1 = 2?
BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL
BODY - BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD SOUL

1 in 1 = One eternal soul in one mortal body.

The created christ believers use your same math also. Natural minds think naturally the same.

See that? The SOUL comes into existence ONLY AS A CONSEQUENCE of the union of the Body and Breath of Life and exists only as long as this union prevails.

Every soul is created in the lower earth, and then covered in the womb with a body of mortal flesh.

At death, the body returns to the dust, the Spirit returns to God Who gave it, and the Soul passes out of existence. Nothing left but for you to accept the truth.

All souls departing this life first went to hell, either in flames or in Abraham's bosom. Now that Jesus Christ went into hell to lead Abraham's captivity captive into heaven, then all souls either go to hell in flames, or into the presence of the Lord at the altar of God in heaven.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

I like my teaching of what is written in Scripture. You can keep your natural stuff.

You think you're immortal like God?

My soul is immortal, and was like God in the image of Christ, when He made me, but since then I sinned, and so I was no longer like God, but now am reborn into His image again.

All angels and souls of men are made immortal by Christ in His image, but not all angels and souls of men are like Him in righteousness, nor conformed to His image.

That's what Scripture teaches - Life or death, blessings or cursings - these things are opposites, right? If only you'd believe the words of John when he says "the former things are passed away" - and what things? Death, suffering, crying, pain...all which YOU CLAIM will not pass away.

As usual, those who twist Scripture of God, have no problem twisting the words of others.

All those in the eternal future will forget all pain and sufferings of their past, as though they never happened, and all the wicked dead will be forgotten, as though they never existed. But the wicked dead will have eternity in black darkness of torment, to remember everything exactly as they did certainly happen, with no more lies and no more chance to repent of their own lies:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lie of oblivion is delusional, because oblivion means nothing ever happened. Those souls and the lives they live never occurred in the first place.

But the books of man's works will forever say different, especially those names mentioned in any Scripture of Christ ever written, whether for good or for evil.

In the end, there are always one or two Scriptures that must be rejected outright, in order to keep believing one's own lies, and once they are reject, all other Scripture must be twisted and changed and misread accordingly.

For OSAS believers, that is James 2:14 & 24: They make their own faith their own power to go to heaven by.

For the created christ believers, that is John 1.1 and I John 5:20: They make Jesus Christ into a deified god.

For mortal soul believers, that is Matthew 12:40 & Acts 2:31: They make Jesus a false prophet and myth-maker, teaching parables as though they were true accounts.

Bro, your posts are not only convoluted, but they are one giant wall mural. Can you put what I say in the "Phoneman777 said:" box and then write your responses below it? Makes it easier to follow.

 

[robert derrick]

Bro, your posts are not only convoluted, but they are one giant wall mural. Can you put what I say in the "Phoneman777 said:" box and then write your responses below it? Makes it easier to follow.

No problem. I'll just offer my conclusions about what you have been teaching:

1. Oblivion itself does not exist, and is an idea made up by atheists, that do not believe in the true God: there is nowhere anywhere that does not exist, because God is everywhere and anywhere, and there is no 'where' there without Him. There is no such thing as nowhere or nothingness, where God is not.

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And also, once God creates anything, it is created: He does not uncreate anything.

Oblivion also cannot occur with any spiritual being, because all their existence would be undone, including their past. It's not as though they had not existed, but it would be that they never existed at all, which is not true and so cannot be possible. Even when the earth is burned by fervent heat, it will still exist, just not as before:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Scripture teaches that the wicked and past sorrows of the righteous will be forgotten, as though they were not. Like the old heaven and earth, the wicked souls of men and devils will be separated from God and the new heaven and earth in darkness forever.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

2. There is a teaching among Christians, that every time Jesus speaks of a certain man, that means He must be speaking of a true account, but that is not the case. There are several times where Jesus speaks allegory and parable of a certain king, household, vineyard owner, etc...

Therefore, if Jesus speaks of any thing that is a parable or allegory, He will plainly say so. That is also the case for Scripture itself, whether written by a prophet or apostle. Scripture will say it is a parable, allegory, or mystery, when there is one.

This includes your effort in Matthew 13 to say Scripture did not identify beforehand Jesus would be speaking in parables:

And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. And he spake many things unto them in parables...

Scripture also shows that people who hear things from God, that they don't like, will try to make it a parable only, when it is not plainly identified as such:

Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables? (Ezek 20)

You don't want there to be a hell of torment for souls of the wicked, and so you say it is only a parable. You are doing the same as they did with Ezekiel's words, when he plainly warned them of the Lord's wrath to come.

3. There are always one or two Scriptures that every false teacher must simply reject outright, since there is no way to twist it around. Otherwise, they must reject plain grammar of words on paper. That is when they will revert to 'manuscript debates', to just do ways with the Scripture itself. In the case of mortal souls, there are two Scriptures in Matthew 12 and Acts 2 that cannot possibly be rejected as parable:

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jesus' soul was in hell for three days and nights in the heart of the heart, while His dead body was in the tomb. That is plain words on paper. To reject them as a true account, is also to make Jesus a false prophet, since His plain prophecy did not to pass as a true event:

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

To make a parable out of the accounting in Acts 2 of Jesus' soul in hell, is to make Peter a liar, and Jesus a false prophet.

No prophet, nor apostle, nor Christ Himself ever taught or prophesied of something as though it were a true accounting, and it turned out only to be a parable. That is what myths are: teachings portrayed as true accounts, they were never true events nor people. Plato called them 'noble lies'.

 

[robert derrick]

Thanks for responding.

We are created in the image of God spiritually: He is immortal and our soul is immortal. Same with the angels.

e.g....what does the word "soul" mean in the Jewish understanding of the Bible writers?

It doesn't matter what any man, other than Jesus Christ, thinks what a soul means, whether Jew, Greek, or Webster. All that matters is what God tells us what the soul is in Scripture.

‘Nefesh’ is the person himself, his need for food, the very blood in his veins, his being.....so an accurate understanding of biblical words clears up any misunderstanding.

Case in point: by definitions of men, you say your soul is your mortal body.

This denies the spiritual nature of the soul, which is eternally made in the image of Christ, and so is the same carnal thinking of natural man.

The natural man says there is no soul of man, and natural theology speaks of a mortal soul only, so that the result is the same: All there is to man is his flesh and blood on earth.

he Bible does not say we "have" a soul.

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

The soul I have, is my soul.

In your patience possess ye your souls.

I have a soul to possess, even as the promised land God commanded them to possess.

We also have a body to possess in righteousness:

That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour.

Oh dear.....really? This is a parable that Jesus gave to highlight what the Jews were experiencing with regard to their leadership. If you read Matthew 23 you will see that Jesus did not have a good thing to say about those hypocritical frauds.

Gee golly....Yes. All parables, allegories, and mysteries that are not true events or persons, are always identified by Scripture as being such.

Dismissing the truth of Scripture as only parable, was the same in the time of Ezekiel's warning of God's wrath to come:

Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables? (Ezekiel 20)

This parable was used to show that the rich man (who pictured the Pharisees) looked down on the hated "lost sheep" (pictured by the beggar.)
Both died to their former positions when Jesus came and preached the message of the Kingdom to those "lost sheep" (the "am ha-arets")

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried.

He died and was buried.

The "Bosom of Abraham" is a favored position with God. Those reclining at a meal in Bible times were said to be in the bosom position if they had gained the favor of the host. He would recline at his breast. (bosom)
Luke 6:24-25 speaks about such rich men, whereas Jesus mentioned those who were poor in more ways than one, in Matthew 5:3, 6.

And so, Jesus shows how the children of the faith of Abraham went straight to Abraham's bosom first.

The natural children without his faith went into the flames out of reach:

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Again, a little research will reveal that this "hell" is not what Christendom teaches at all.
It is a quote from Psalm 16:10, which says....
"For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption." (NKJV)

Sheol is not "hell" but is translated in the Jewish Tanakh and the NKJV as "the grave".

You have plenty of scholarly word-play, which only results in making mythical parables out of plain Scripture, when it suits you.

Jesus says there is a hell, that is below the grave in the heart of the earth, and there are flames for souls of the wicked dead.

Psalms prophesied it of Him, and He prophesied it of Himself, and Acts 2 confirmed the prophesy was fulfilled as spoken.

To say Acts 2:27-31 is only allegory, is to say plain Scripture does not mean what God says. It also makes Jesus a false prophet, who prophesies symbols only that do not come to pass:

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Mythologers spoke of events, places, and persons as being true accounts, when they are only symbol and allegory. Plato calls them 'noble lies'.

No prophet, apostle, not Jesus was a myth maker, which is what you make of them, when you say they are only allegorizing, while speaking of things as being factually true.

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave [sheol] where you are going."

This is Solomon speaking as a natural man only, in a time of life, where he had left the Lord. He was speaking of the mortal body only, that is dead without the soul and spirit: corpses are dead flesh and bone only.

You apply the mind of natural man to yourself.

But Jesus used another word that is erroneously translated "hell"....that is "gehenna" and it doesn't mean a hell of eternal torment either.
Gehenna is a place where the dead go and do not return....it is "the second death" from which no resurrection is possible.

The lake of fire is where hell will also be cast into. Along with Lucifer, the devils, and all souls of men not found written in the Lamb's book of Life.

Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life.

True, in being separated from God forever, rather than in His presence. Both are eternal.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

God writes Scripture of truth in such a way as to expose every lie about Scripture. When it come to natural mortal soul theology, there are two Scriptures than must be rejected outright because their words are too plain to excuse. Daniel 12:2 & Acts 2:31.

Once either of these Scriptures are rejected, then we know the teaching is nothing but extended sophistry and manipulation of the truth for one's own purposes.

 

[Phoneman777]

No problem. I'll just offer my conclusions about what you have been teaching:

1. Oblivion itself does not exist, and is an idea made up by atheists, that do not believe in the true God: there is nowhere anywhere that does not exist, because God is everywhere and anywhere, and there is no 'where' there without Him. There is no such thing as nowhere or nothingness, where God is not.

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And also, once God creates anything, it is created: He does not uncreate anything.

Oblivion also cannot occur with any spiritual being, because all their existence would be undone, including their past. It's not as though they had not existed, but it would be that they never existed at all, which is not true and so cannot be possible. Even when the earth is burned by fervent heat, it will still exist, just not as before:

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Scripture teaches that the wicked and past sorrows of the righteous will be forgotten, as though they were not. Like the old heaven and earth, the wicked souls of men and devils will be separated from God and the new heaven and earth in darkness forever.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

2. There is a teaching among Christians, that every time Jesus speaks of a certain man, that means He must be speaking of a true account, but that is not the case. There are several times where Jesus speaks allegory and parable of a certain king, household, vineyard owner, etc...

Therefore, if Jesus speaks of any thing that is a parable or allegory, He will plainly say so. That is also the case for Scripture itself, whether written by a prophet or apostle. Scripture will say it is a parable, allegory, or mystery, when there is one.

This includes your effort in Matthew 13 to say Scripture did not identify beforehand Jesus would be speaking in parables:

And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. And he spake many things unto them in parables...

Scripture also shows that people who hear things from God, that they don't like, will try to make it a parable only, when it is not plainly identified as such:

Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables? (Ezek 20)

You don't want there to be a hell of torment for souls of the wicked, and so you say it is only a parable. You are doing the same as they did with Ezekiel's words, when he plainly warned them of the Lord's wrath to come.

3. There are always one or two Scriptures that every false teacher must simply reject outright, since there is no way to twist it around. Otherwise, they must reject plain grammar of words on paper. That is when they will revert to 'manuscript debates', to just do ways with the Scripture itself. In the case of mortal souls, there are two Scriptures in Matthew 12 and Acts 2 that cannot possibly be rejected as parable:

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jesus' soul was in hell for three days and nights in the heart of the heart, while His dead body was in the tomb. That is plain words on paper. To reject them as a true account, is also to make Jesus a false prophet, since His plain prophecy did not to pass as a true event:

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

To make a parable out of the accounting in Acts 2 of Jesus' soul in hell, is to make Peter a liar, and Jesus a false prophet.

No prophet, nor apostle, nor Christ Himself ever taught or prophesied of something as though it were a true accounting, and it turned out only to be a parable. That is what myths are: teachings portrayed as true accounts, they were never true events nor people. Plato called them 'noble lies'.

"Soul was not left in hell" is a poetic way of saying "Jesus wasn't left to remain dead in the tomb".

Jesus didn't go to a fiery burning blazing chamber when He died - He ceased to exist.

How do we know?

Solomon says the "dead know not anything" and they have no emotions, no memory, nothing.

 

[robert derrick]

"Soul was not left in hell" is a poetic way of saying "Jesus wasn't left to remain dead in the tomb".

Jesus didn't go to a fiery burning blazing chamber when He died - He ceased to exist.

How do we know?

Solomon says the "dead know not anything" and they have no emotions, no memory, nothing.

You reject Scripture by making plain words of truth into poetry and symbols only.

You do so with the same natural mind Solomon had at the time he no longer knew the Lord, and spoke only of a man's body. He also said there was never a new thing under the sun, because he did not believe in the Lord's birth on earth nor in the resurrection.

All Scripture you trust in, is for the natural minded man only, so that in the end you say the Lord God and Creator of all things, the only true God immortal, Jesus Christ, ceased to exist.

Or maybe you don't believe Jesus Christ is Lord and God afterall? Since you say all souls are mortal, and only God is immortal, then God cannot have nor be a soul. That's the only way you can even suggest Jesus Christ did not exist for three days: because He isn't the immortal God.

 

[robert derrick]

More Scriptures showing the soul is immortal, while the body is but flesh only.

But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jesus rebukes them that do not believe in the immortality of the soul, nor the resurrection of the body.

God is the God of the living: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all souls of saints are now living, though their bodies are still dead.

Like the Sadducees of old, those believing in mortal souls only, do not believe God is the God of living souls, but of dead bodies.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Before Jesus' resurrection, all souls of saints were awaiting His coming to them in hell to lead them captive to heaven with Him in His resurrection. Now all saints at the end of this life are in the presence of the Lord with them at the altar of His throne.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The soul in earthen vessels is no more that vessel, than the water in the cup, is the cup itself.

Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

The soul dwells in a mortal tabernacle of flesh, and puts off that tabernacle when departing this life. We put off this mortal flesh, when it goes back to the dust it came from.

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

No. Natural man with mortal soul does not believe this.

The salvation of the soul by Jesus Christ is from the death of separation from God, to be spiritually reconciled to God, and the soul that is saved unto the end shall never die, when the body returns to the dust.

The soul only dies spiritually by sinning, even while the mortal body lives. And the living soul in Christ does not die with the mortal body.

 

[Aunty Jane]

We are created in the image of God spiritually: He is immortal and our soul is immortal. Same with the angels.

So this can be plainly seen in scripture? Please show us one single verse that contains the words "immortal" and "soul" sided by side in any statement made by a Bible writer....just one will do.

How many people know that there is a vast difference between immortality and everlasting life?

It doesn't matter what any man, other than Jesus Christ, thinks what a soul means, whether Jew, Greek, or Webster. All that matters is what God tells us what the soul is in Scripture.

Jesus was Jewish and there was never any teaching of an immortal soul in Jewish scripture.....just the opposite.
A "soul" according to Jewish belief was "a living, breathing creature", which is why the creation account calls animals "souls".
Solomon said both man and beast end up in the same place (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)....the place where God told Adam that he would go...."back to the dust". (Genesis 3:19)
Fallen man has no superiority over the animals in death.

Genesis 1:24 uses the word "nep̄eš" (nephesh) to describe the 'creatures' (souls) that God created....
Strongs again helps us understand how Jews viewed that word....
Def:

1. "soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
   1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
   2. living being
   3. living being (with life in the blood)
   4. the man himself, self, person or individual
   5. seat of the appetites
   6. seat of emotions and passions
   7. activity of mind
      1. dubious
   8. activity of the will
      1. dubious
   9. activity of the character
      1. dubious"

So not a word with one simple meaning, is it? And certainly NOT the definition that is commonly accepted in Christendom.

Case in point: by definitions of men, you say your soul is your mortal body.

This denies the spiritual nature of the soul, which is eternally made in the image of Christ, and so is the same carnal thinking of natural man.

The natural man says there is no soul of man, and natural theology speaks of a mortal soul only, so that the result is the same: All there is to man is his flesh and blood on earth.

What a muddle of unscriptural nonsense that is.....not remotely connected to the way Jews understood their scripture.....and remembering that Jesus was Jewish, it is not something that he ever taught.
The spiritual nature of the human soul is the way humans, (as opposed to animal "souls") are made in God's image (not Christ's).

Animals do not worship, and hence have no spiritual side to their nature like we do.
Man was designed for life on earth, not heaven. Show me please where God ever spoke of "heaven or hell" to Adam....all Adam was offered was "life or death"....something that was repeated to the Jews at Mt Sinai....(Deuteronomy 30:19) There was never any mention of heaven or hell because God never had that in mind for his human creation in the first place.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

The soul I have, is my soul.

In your patience possess ye your souls.

I have a soul to possess, even as the promised land God commanded them to possess.

We also have a body to possess in righteousness:

That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour.

"My soul" is another way of saying myself......because the soul is the entire person.....the body with breath (spirit) is what creates animation....that is a soul. The soul is mortal (Ezekiel 18:4) The soul dies because it is inextricably tied to the body.

Dismissing the truth of Scripture as only parable, was the same in the time of Ezekiel's warning of God's wrath to come:

Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables? (Ezekiel 20)

What was the word Ezekiel used there....?
Strongs defines "parables" or "mâshâl" (maw-shawl')....."apparently from H4910 in some original sense of superiority in mental action; properly, a pithy maxim, usually of metaphorical nature; hence, a simile (as an adage, poem, discourse):—byword, like, parable, proverb."
Look at the way this word is translated in other Bibles...
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ezekiel 20:49

Or in other verses....
H4912 - māšāl - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (nasb20)

I think you need to broaden out your education instead of sticking to an outdated translation that very few can even understand these days.
How many people do you know who speak archaic English? Why do people assume that it is the superior translation when the Bible itself was not written in old English?
The parables were not baseless stories, but describing actual events in story form so that his audience could understand the implications of his teachings. There is no such thing as "only a parable".

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried.

He died and was buried.

And used metaphorically....something inanimate can be said to be 'dead and buried'.....like a failed argument, or outdated fashion, or a previously held idea that was proven to be in error.

Jesus used the deaths of the rich man and Lazarus to illustrate that each had died to their former position before his Father, who esteemed Abraham as the one through whom his Messiah would come. The rich man lost his place in 'Abraham's bosom' and it was taken by the beggar that he despised....that is what created the torment. The Jews had no belief in life after death (immortal soul) so none of Jesus teachings contained any reference to it. Please don't get it confused with resurrection.....its not the same at all.

And so, Jesus shows how the children of the faith of Abraham went straight to Abraham's bosom first.

The natural children without his faith went into the flames out of reach:

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

In modern English....
"The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’"

So here is the riddle...who is the rich man and who is the beggar?
Where is "hades"? Or what is it in the Jewish understanding of the word?
Are heaven and hell really mentioned here according to how Christendom understands those terms?
Are they within speaking distance to one another?
What good things did the rich man receive that he no longer has?
And what bad things did the beggar receive and why did he find himself "comforted" there in the favored position of Abraham's bosom?
What is the "chasm" that is fixed between where the rich man ended up, and the place where the beggar now finds himself?

When you can answer those questions, then you might be able to offer your insights on what this parable means....

 

[Aunty Jane]

You have plenty of scholarly word-play, which only results in making mythical parables out of plain Scripture, when it suits you.

Jesus says there is a hell, that is below the grave in the heart of the earth, and there are flames for souls of the wicked dead.

Please show us this "hell" below the grave in the heart of the earth.....talk about "word play"! You have just fused several scriptures together to form one idea that scripture never mentions.
Show us this plain scripture upon which you base your assertions, because I have never come across them. Your own word play is at work here.

To say Acts 2:27-31 is only allegory, is to say plain Scripture does not mean what God says. It also makes Jesus a false prophet, who prophesies symbols only that do not come to pass:

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Mythologers spoke of events, places, and persons as being true accounts, when they are only symbol and allegory. Plato calls them 'noble lies'.

I prefer Jesus to tell me what scripture means in the broad scope of the Bible's entirety. You can believe Plato if you like....he is after all the author of the immortal soul....not Jesus.

This is Solomon speaking as a natural man only, in a time of life, where he had left the Lord. He was speaking of the mortal body only, that is dead without the soul and spirit: corpses are dead flesh and bone only.

Do you honestly believe that God would allow the words of a disobedient man to become scripture to following generations?
Solomon defected in his old age to a type of mixed religion to appease his many foreign wives.....and he lived with the excesses of royalty that eventually corrupted him.
What man after all, needs 700 wives and 300 concubines??? Seriously...? Not to mention that God had forbidden the Israelites to marry outside of their own people. The Song of Solomon and Ecclesiastes were written when he was faithful.

Solomon spoke as a Jew, according to Jewish belief.

The lake of fire is where hell will also be cast into. Along with Lucifer, the devils, and all souls of men not found written in the Lamb's book of Life.

The lake of fire is where "hades" is cast, but not "gehenna" because gehenna IS the lake of fire.
The valley called "Gehenna", (the Greek word often rendered “hell”) is where the refuse of the city was thrown, and some say that the bodies or mortal remains of criminals not deemed deserving of a decent burial nor entitled to a resurrection were also thrown into that place. So to be cast into fiery Gehenna symbolized to be eternally destroyed, without hope of a resurrection. (Matthew 10:28)
A parallel expression to that of Jesus is found at Isaiah 66:24
"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." (KJV)
This shows that it is the “carcases” of transgressors that will be eaten by worms (maggots) and the fire consuming their mortal remains that will never be quenched. It has nothing to do with tormented souls.

True, in being separated from God forever, rather than in His presence. Both are eternal.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was Jewish, so his Jewish perspective didn't include immortality of the soul....the 'awakening' or resurrection meant life to the righteous and a period of judgment for the "unrighteous" who had never had an opportunity to come to know the true God and his Christ. These "unrighteous" ones Paul spoke about, who were to be resurrected along with righteous ones. (Acts 24:15)

God writes Scripture of truth in such a way as to expose every lie about Scripture

He doesn't actually, because the majority accept what is not truth. Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life...so again, where does that leave the "many"? (Matthew 7:13-14)

True, in being separated from God forever, rather than in His presence. Both are eternal.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

God writes Scripture of truth in such a way as to expose every lie about Scripture. When it come to natural mortal soul theology, there are two Scriptures than must be rejected outright because their words are too plain to excuse. Daniel 12:2 & Acts 2:31.

Neither of those scriptures means what you think it does....
Daniel spoke of "many" who sleep in the dust and will awaken.....
This is the resurrection....they "sleep" in death until Christ establishes his Kingdom over the earth. The time is coming he said....
John 5:28-29...
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment." (NASB)

If Jesus spoke those words when he was on earth, what happened to all those who died before this event that was to take place in the future?
The dead are called from their tombs, which must mean that they are all still in them.

Once either of these Scriptures are rejected, then we know the teaching is nothing but extended sophistry and manipulation of the truth for one's own purposes.

Once either of these scriptures is understood, one can clearly see where the manipulation has taken place.....and it goes back centuries...

 

[robert derrick]

So this can be plainly seen in scripture? Please show us one single verse that contains the words "immortal" and "soul" sided by side in any statement made by a Bible writer....just one will do.

No Scripture says the words Jesus Christ is God side by side. But He is.

Which brings us to what really is going on with this mortal soul sideshow: you don't believe Jesus Christ is Lord and God, do you.

How else can one of your fellow enthusiasts let slip, that Jesus Christ ceased to exist, while His body was in the grave for three days. God can never cease to exist.

You declare all souls are mortal and only exist with a physical body, and cease to exist while the body is dead. God only is immortal, and so He cannot have a soul nor become a man and living soul on earth.

And so, is the Son Jesus Christ Lord and God?

 

[Aunty Jane]

No Scripture says the words Jesus Christ is God side by side.

Thank you for that admission. There is no trinity in the Bible and even the RCC admits that. So where did that idea originate when the only triads that existed in Bible times were in pagan religions that had no connection to Israel.

But He is

No, actually you have been led to believe that he is.....who told you that Jesus is God? The RCC.....and if you want to swallow that ancient lie, tell me why you might not accept many of the other RCC doctrines that were thrown out in the Reformation? What made them right with the trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire but not with “Mary mother of God” or “purgatory” or “making images” to use in worship? What did the Reformation actually accomplish? Unity in Christian belief? Is that what we see in Christendom? (1 Corinthians 1:10)

Which brings us to what really is going on with this mortal soul sideshow: you don't believe Jesus Christ is Lord and God, do you.

How else can one of your fellow enthusiasts let slip, that Jesus Christ ceased to exist, while His body was in the grave for three days. God can never cease to exist.

Again, we need to understand that Jesus was Jewish....he lived and died as a Jew.....and there was NO belief in immortal souls in Jewish worship. That Platonic Greek notion was adopted by Judaism in later times and by apostate Christianity later as well.

It is simply NOT a Bible teaching because death means death, not life in another form. What did the devil tell Eve? “You surely will not die”....do you see what he did to introduce that idea? He told humans that they ‘don’t really die’ when God told them that they would simply “return to the dust”. Satan had a way to ‘perpetuate life’ without a single bit of evidence that it goes on after death. Show us the proof that souls exist in heaven.

Immortality of the soul is a satanic lie that is perpetuated by the church that he instituted in fulfilment of Jesus parable of the “wheat and the weeds”. It’s proof of the counterfeit “Christianity” that has spread in the world like weeds, misleading people and getting them to accept things that the Bible has never taught.

Resurrection did not require an immortal soul because it was a restoration of life, not a continuation of it. Jesus said that he would be “in the heart of the earth” (in his grave) for three days and nights, which doesn’t say that his ‘body’ was in the grave whilst his ‘spirit’ went somewhere else. Just as Jonah was confined in the belly of the fish, Jesus was confined in his grave for three days. (Matthew 12:40) He died as a human and was raised as a spirit. (1 Peter 3:18)

Those who will rule with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom (God’s elect) will also die the same death, and be raised as spirits, but the majority of mankind are still “sleeping” peacefully in their graves. Jesus will call them out once his Kingdom is established over the earth. (John 5:28-29)

You declare all souls are mortal and only exist with a physical body, and cease to exist while the body is dead. God only is immortal, and so He cannot have a soul nor become a man and living soul on earth.

The soul is the whole person or creature. All living, breathing things are called “souls” in the Bible. All souls die in this present world but that is not the way God intended things to be....humans alone were to have access to “the tree of life” which God placed in the garden to guarantee that their life would not end, but on the condition that they would obey one simple command.....not to eat from the TKGE.

The devil persuaded the woman to break that command leaving Adam with a decision that changed the destiny of mankind, and the introduction of an object lesson for all of their children, born now with sin and inevitable death before them. Access to “the tree of life” was denied and they were evicted from their paradise home. (Read Genesis 3:22-24)

God never needed to become a human to redeem mankind as has already been explained. He sent his precious “firstborn son” to carry out that assignment. All he needed to be was the equivalent of Adam, to give “a sinless life for a sinless life”.....100% mortal human, which Yahweh himself could never be.
Immortals CANNOT die.

And so, is the Son Jesus Christ Lord and God?

Jesus is the Christ whom we address as “Lord” because that is a title of respect. He is not “LORD” as Yahweh is because he is NOT God Almighty. He is called “theos” in the sense of what that word means in Greek....a divine mighty one....even satan is called “theos” in 2 Corinthians 4:4. Human judges were called “theos” because of their divine authorisation. (John 10:31-36)

Jesus is not Almighty God, but his most trusted “holy servant”. (Acts 4:27) How can Almighty God be his own servant?

There is so much more to the scriptures now that we all have access to the information available online. There is no excuse to believe what has been force fed to people for centuries, if we are able to do our own research and see for ourselves what the original language words mean.

What Jesus warned about took place, and we can see exactly how the devil sowed his seeds of false “Christianity” in a world that “believes” whatever they are told by those they have been led to trust, or to obey out of fear....but Jesus said “by their fruits” we would be able to identify these hated and persecuted ones who dare to tell the inconvenient truth about God. (Matthew 5:11-12; John 15:18-21) Just like Jesus did.

This is “the time of the end” and we will get no second chances when the judge of all of us passes sentence. (Matthew 7:21-23) Calling yourself a “Christian” means adhering to the teachings of our Master.....all of them, not just the convenient ones......by our beliefs and conduct we will prove who we belong to.

Do not underestimate the devil’s propaganda. He can make lies look like the truth and vice versa. Those whose hearts and minds are not closed will come to God’s truth only by his invitation. (John 6:44, 65)

 

[robert derrick]

Thank you for that admission. There is no trinity in the Bible and even the RCC admits that. So where did that idea originate when the only triads that existed in Bible times were in pagan religions that had no connection to Israel.


No, actually you have been led to believe that he is.....who told you that Jesus is God? The RCC.....and if you want to swallow that ancient lie, tell me why you might not accept many of the other RCC doctrines that were thrown out in the Reformation? What made them right with the trinity, immortality of the soul and hellfire but not with “Mary mother of God” or “purgatory” or “making images” to use in worship? What did the Reformation actually accomplish? Unity in Christian belief? Is that what we see in Christendom? (1 Corinthians 1:10)


Again, we need to understand that Jesus was Jewish....he lived and died as a Jew.....and there was NO belief in immortal souls in Jewish worship. That Platonic Greek notion was adopted by Judaism in later times and by apostate Christianity later as well.

It is simply NOT a Bible teaching because death means death, not life in another form. What did the devil tell Eve? “You surely will not die”....do you see what he did to introduce that idea? He told humans that they ‘don’t really die’ when God told them that they would simply “return to the dust”. Satan had a way to ‘perpetuate life’ without a single bit of evidence that it goes on after death. Show us the proof that souls exist in heaven.

Immortality of the soul is a satanic lie that is perpetuated by the church that he instituted in fulfilment of Jesus parable of the “wheat and the weeds”. It’s proof of the counterfeit “Christianity” that has spread in the world like weeds, misleading people and getting them to accept things that the Bible has never taught.

Resurrection did not require an immortal soul because it was a restoration of life, not a continuation of it. Jesus said that he would be “in the heart of the earth” (in his grave) for three days and nights, which doesn’t say that his ‘body’ was in the grave whilst his ‘spirit’ went somewhere else. Just as Jonah was confined in the belly of the fish, Jesus was confined in his grave for three days. (Matthew 12:40) He died as a human and was raised as a spirit. (1 Peter 3:18)

Those who will rule with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom (God’s elect) will also die the same death, and be raised as spirits, but the majority of mankind are still “sleeping” peacefully in their graves. Jesus will call them out once his Kingdom is established over the earth. (John 5:28-29)


The soul is the whole person or creature. All living, breathing things are called “souls” in the Bible. All souls die in this present world but that is not the way God intended things to be....humans alone were to have access to “the tree of life” which God placed in the garden to guarantee that their life would not end, but on the condition that they would obey one simple command.....not to eat from the TKGE.

The devil persuaded the woman to break that command leaving Adam with a decision that changed the destiny of mankind, and the introduction of an object lesson for all of their children, born now with sin and inevitable death before them. Access to “the tree of life” was denied and they were evicted from their paradise home. (Read Genesis 3:22-24)

God never needed to become a human to redeem mankind as has already been explained. He sent his precious “firstborn son” to carry out that assignment. All he needed to be was the equivalent of Adam, to give “a sinless life for a sinless life”.....100% mortal human, which Yahweh himself could never be.
Immortals CANNOT die.


Jesus is the Christ whom we address as “Lord” because that is a title of respect. He is not “LORD” as Yahweh is because he is NOT God Almighty. He is called “theos” in the sense of what that word means in Greek....a divine mighty one....even satan is called “theos” in 2 Corinthians 4:4. Human judges were called “theos” because of their divine authorisation. (John 10:31-36)

Jesus is not Almighty God, but his most trusted “holy servant”. (Acts 4:27) How can Almighty God be his own servant?

There is so much more to the scriptures now that we all have access to the information available online. There is no excuse to believe what has been force fed to people for centuries, if we are able to do our own research and see for ourselves what the original language words mean.

What Jesus warned about took place, and we can see exactly how the devil sowed his seeds of false “Christianity” in a world that “believes” whatever they are told by those they have been led to trust, or to obey out of fear....but Jesus said “by their fruits” we would be able to identify these hated and persecuted ones who dare to tell the inconvenient truth about God. (Matthew 5:11-12; John 15:18-21) Just like Jesus did.

This is “the time of the end” and we will get no second chances when the judge of all of us passes sentence. (Matthew 7:21-23) Calling yourself a “Christian” means adhering to the teachings of our Master.....all of them, not just the convenient ones......by our beliefs and conduct we will prove who we belong to.

Do not underestimate the devil’s propaganda. He can make lies look like the truth and vice versa. Those whose hearts and minds are not closed will come to God’s truth only by his invitation. (John 6:44, 65)

Right. You have the same manner of research as the created christ believers. I know that not every believer in a created christ is a JW. I just refer to you as jehovah worshippers. Apparently your natural theology of mortal souls is a basis for a created christ with mortal soul like all men.

Is your christ also a created angel and word expression of jehovah? And then made a mortal soul and man on earth? And then the first deified man to be above angels and a little lower than God?

Do you believe in the hope of Adam, to be born again or resurrected into immortal natural bodies on this earth? And so are specially chosen to reside in heaven?

 

[Phoneman777]

You reject Scripture by making plain words of truth into poetry and symbols only.

You do so with the same natural mind Solomon had at the time he no longer knew the Lord, and spoke only of a man's body. He also said there was never a new thing under the sun, because he did not believe in the Lord's birth on earth nor in the resurrection.

All Scripture you trust in, is for the natural minded man only, so that in the end you say the Lord God and Creator of all things, the only true God immortal, Jesus Christ, ceased to exist.

Or maybe you don't believe Jesus Christ is Lord and God afterall? Since you say all souls are mortal, and only God is immortal, then God cannot have nor be a soul. That's the only way you can even suggest Jesus Christ did not exist for three days: because He isn't the immortal God.

No, I accept ALL the counsel of Scripture, whereas you pick and choose and make up stuff like "disembodied soul body part".

Solomon and David and Jesus and Peter and Paul and many others tell you plainly the truth. Solomon says the dead "know not anything" but you claim the dead not only know things, but use that knowledge to effect changes in the land of the living. Ezekiel and James tell you souls can suffer death which is "absence of life" but you claim "death" means "continued life separated from God". Peter tells you "DAVID" - the entire, whole, complete DAVID - is "not ascended" to heaven, but you claim, "oh that means David's body" which is ridiculous, seeing that the Jews were not stupid and knew full well David's bones yet lie in a grave. I could go on, but you'd just keep denying the truth that the wicked will "sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake" - when you're sleeping, are you conscious or unconscious? So, then, why do you keep insisting the dead who "sleep the sleep of death" are fully aware of what's going on around them and then wrongly point to the parable of Luke 16 as a literal story?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Right. You have the same manner of research as the created christ believers. I know that not every believer in a created christ is a JW. I just refer to you as jehovah worshippers.

Jesus was a "Jehovah worshipper"...so JW's are in good company.
Jesus himself said that he was the "beginning of God's creation" (Revelation 3:14) So I will believe Jesus who also said that he was the "son of God"...NEVER did he say he was "God the Son"....the RCC did that, and somehow convinced people that it meant the same thing......it never did.

Apparently your natural theology of mortal souls is a basis for a created christ with mortal soul like all men.

I think you are so wrapped up in the idea that the soul is something that lives inside a body that you forget that the meaning of the word "soul" in both Hebrew and Greek is a living, breathing creature....why else would animals be called "souls" in the Genesis creation account?
Jesus didn't "have" a mortal soul....he WAS one, because he had to be the exact equivalent of Adam....a 100% perfect sinless human specimen.

God's spirit transferred his life force from heaven into the womb of a virgin to be born as a human being, whose primary mission was to offer that life on behalf of those who love God and who have a relationship with him.

He could not have redeemed mankind unless he paid the exact price that was required by God's perfect justice...a "life for a life" Adam lost perfect sinless life for all his children,...Jesus came as his exact equivalent, to buy it back for us. That is what redemption means.

Is your christ also a created angel and word expression of jehovah?

Since he is said to come with an "archangels voice" to call the dead in Christ (his elect) from the graves, what would be the point of an archangel's voice if he were not an archangel? (1 Thessalonians 4:16)
You assume that Jesus is God, so why use the voice of an inferior being if you are the Almighty? Again your theology is gravely flawed.

And then made a mortal soul and man on earth? And then the first deified man to be above angels and a little lower than God?

That is very twisted, but not unexpected.
Jesus cannot be 100% man if he is 100% God.....did you not do basic math at school?
An immortal cannot at the same time be mortal. Jesus died as a mortal human and was in his tomb for three days, then his Father resurrected him. The dead cannot raise themselves.
Who did Peter say raised Jesus from the dead?
Acts 2:32...
"This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses." (NKJV)
Acts 10:37-40..
"how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly". (NKJV)

Who did all that?

Do you believe in the hope of Adam, to be born again or resurrected into immortal natural bodies on this earth? And so are specially chosen to reside in heaven?

Adam has no hope. He was a perfect man without sin and could offer no excuse to his Creator for what he did. Adam did not make a mistake...he made a wilful and deliberate choice, knowing full well what the penalty was. There is not a single word of repentance uttered by either of those human rebels and no sacrifices were ever offered by them. The first man to do that was Abel whom the Bible lists as the first righteous man.

I have no hope of living anywhere but here on earth where God placed us in the beginning. I see myself enjoying the fulfillment of Revelation 21:2-4
Only the elect are "born again of water and spirit"....they are baptized in water as disciples of Christ first, and if they are chosen for a role in heaven, there will be a baptism with holy spirit to implant an inordinate desire to leave this earth and take up their assignment in heaven.

Most people think that a natural desire to live in "paradise" means that they are destined for heaven, but the first paradise was here on earth, where God created man in the beginning. This mortal earthly life was supposed to go on forever because God provided the means to perpetuate life. The humans lost it through disobedience and they will lose it again for the same reason. Christendom does not obey the Christ whose teachings came from his Father.

What do those who believe that 'all good Christians go to heaven', think that they will do there? What is the purpose of creating humans to live on earth if God was only going to take them to heaven? Why not create them there like he did with the angels?

If there are to be "new heavens and a new earth" (2 Peter 3:13) what was the reason for their renewal? Please use scripture....

 

[robert derrick]

Jesus was a "Jehovah worshipper"...so JW's are in good company.
Jesus himself said that he was the "beginning of God's creation" (Revelation 3:14) So I will believe Jesus who also said that he was the "son of God"...NEVER did he say he was "God the Son"....the RCC did that, and somehow convinced people that it meant the same thing......it never did.


I think you are so wrapped up in the idea that the soul is something that lives inside a body that you forget that the meaning of the word "soul" in both Hebrew and Greek is a living, breathing creature....why else would animals be called "souls" in the Genesis creation account?
Jesus didn't "have" a mortal soul....he WAS one, because he had to be the exact equivalent of Adam....a 100% perfect sinless human specimen.

God's spirit transferred his life force from heaven into the womb of a virgin to be born as a human being, whose primary mission was to offer that life on behalf of those who love God and who have a relationship with him.

He could not have redeemed mankind unless he paid the exact price that was required by God's perfect justice...a "life for a life" Adam lost perfect sinless life for all his children,...Jesus came as his exact equivalent, to buy it back for us. That is what redemption means.


Since he is said to come with an "archangels voice" to call the dead in Christ (his elect) from the graves, what would be the point of an archangel's voice if he were not an archangel? (1 Thessalonians 4:16)
You assume that Jesus is God, so why use the voice of an inferior being if you are the Almighty? Again your theology is gravely flawed.


That is very twisted, but not unexpected.
Jesus cannot be 100% man if he is 100% God.....did you not do basic math at school?
An immortal cannot at the same time be mortal. Jesus died as a mortal human and was in his tomb for three days, then his Father resurrected him. The dead cannot raise themselves.
Who did Peter say raised Jesus from the dead?
Acts 2:32...
"This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses." (NKJV)
Acts 10:37-40..
"how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly". (NKJV)

Who did all that?


Adam has no hope. He was a perfect man without sin and could offer no excuse to his Creator for what he did. Adam did not make a mistake...he made a wilful and deliberate choice, knowing full well what the penalty was. There is not a single word of repentance uttered by either of those human rebels and no sacrifices were ever offered by them. The first man to do that was Abel whom the Bible lists as the first righteous man.

I have no hope of living anywhere but here on earth where God placed us in the beginning. I see myself enjoying the fulfillment of Revelation 21:2-4
Only the elect are "born again of water and spirit"....they are baptized in water as disciples of Christ first, and if they are chosen for a role in heaven, there will be a baptism with holy spirit to implant an inordinate desire to leave this earth and take up their assignment in heaven.

Most people think that a natural desire to live in "paradise" means that they are destined for heaven, but the first paradise was here on earth, where God created man in the beginning. This mortal earthly life was supposed to go on forever because God provided the means to perpetuate life. The humans lost it through disobedience and they will lose it again for the same reason. Christendom does not obey the Christ whose teachings came from his Father.

What do those who believe that 'all good Christians go to heaven', think that they will do there? What is the purpose of creating humans to live on earth if God was only going to take them to heaven? Why not create them there like he did with the angels?

If there are to be "new heavens and a new earth" (2 Peter 3:13) what was the reason for their renewal? Please use scripture....

I no longer argue with false christ creators, which is why I've ceased to bother with you, once I found out who you really are.

There are always one or two Scriptures that prove a teaching is false, which false teachers must plainly reject. Once they do so, then there is a whole row of other Scriptures pertaining to their lie, that must be twisted as well. That is why it is pointless to go down that road of endlessly useless debate.

There is one Scripture alone, that is enough to reject any created christ: John 1:1

There is one Scripture alone, that is the enough to reject mortal soul theology: Acts 2:31

The jehovah idolators are nothing but modern type gnostics, that revel in the intellectual stimulation of long-winded pseudo scholarship, just to change truth of Scripture into a lie. They are exactly the same as the argumentative fable-producing rabbi's of old, whom they worship as fathers and try to emulate:

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men.

They don't know God. The don't have the Spirit of God. They have no life of Christ in their dead souls. And now with this mortal soul stuff they have shown their mocking of Scripture plainly speaking the spiritual things of the soul, vs the natural mortal things of the body:

But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

The only thing better about them than OSAS hypocrites, is that they do command outward holiness, and they do not make the grace and blood of Jesus Christ a derided laughingstock to the world. That is simply because they have no grace nor blood of the Lamb washing them clean from within. Which is why they never speak of such things.

 

[robert derrick]

No, I accept ALL the counsel of Scripture, whereas you pick and choose and make up stuff like "disembodied soul body part".

Solomon and David and Jesus and Peter and Paul and many others tell you plainly the truth. Solomon says the dead "know not anything" but you claim the dead not only know things, but use that knowledge to effect changes in the land of the living. Ezekiel and James tell you souls can suffer death which is "absence of life" but you claim "death" means "continued life separated from God". Peter tells you "DAVID" - the entire, whole, complete DAVID - is "not ascended" to heaven, but you claim, "oh that means David's body" which is ridiculous, seeing that the Jews were not stupid and knew full well David's bones yet lie in a grave. I could go on, but you'd just keep denying the truth that the wicked will "sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake" - when you're sleeping, are you conscious or unconscious? So, then, why do you keep insisting the dead who "sleep the sleep of death" are fully aware of what's going on around them and then wrongly point to the parable of Luke 16 as a literal story?

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Calling the plain words of Scripture 'poetry' only, is so weak, that there's nothing serious to address anymore.

 

[Phoneman777]

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Calling the plain words of Scripture 'poetry' only, is so weak, that there's nothing serious to address anymore.

Any intelligent person can see that "Abraham's Bosom" is a symbolic, poetic reference to something else. No thinking person believes all the dead saints immediately go sit on another man's chest hair as soon as they die, but it seems you think that's exactly the case since the idea of symbolic poetry is foreign to you.