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Were the 10 Commandments Written to us? Exodus 20 / Leviticus 26

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by MatthewG, Sep 12, 2021 at 12:51 PM.

  1. MatthewG

    MatthewG Well-Known Member

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    Enoch111, you are right you, me, everyone has (James 2:10) broken the commandments. The only one who (Matthew 5:17) fulfills them in a believer is the spirit of Christ (John 14:16) from with-in the believer (Galatians 2:20) that love comes from the (1 John 4:7-21) Father through the spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9) comes through and a person lives by the spirit. That produces this type of fruit (Galatians 5:16-26).

    Jesus is the one who fulfills the Law perfectly in every way, and because of Jesus giving his life for you and all of mankind in return for his love that He first showed towards us, we also show love towards Him, and His Father. (1 John 4:14-21)

    James 2:9 Yes indeed, it is good when you obey the royal law as found in the Scriptures: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

    It is the spirit of Christ, Spirt of God, Holy Spirit that produces love, kindness, gentleness, peace, patience, forgiveness, mercy, all comes from God and never us ourselves it is nothing that we personally do; it is all the work of God and Jesus Christ in you allowing them to be in your life.


    Thank you for your comment.
     
  2. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Active Member

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    Matt, would you be obligated to believe that the Commandments were given only to an ancient race of Israelites if you were presented with evidence that they were given much earlier than Exodus 20?

    How can God punish anybody for breaking rules that He has never set forth for all to be aware of?

    The Biblical definition of Sin is Lawlessness, the breaking of the Commandments. Is it not?
    1 John 3:4

    Yet we find this in Genesis 13:13:

    " ... the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord."

    How could this be? How could they be sinning, or breaking any laws that had not yet been set forth by God? Better question: how could they be punished so severely by God for actions He had never stated as being unacceptable to Him before?

    Sodom and Gomorrah are believed to have been destroyed around 2350 B.C. while the giving of the 10 Commandments on mt. Sinai took place around the 16th to 13th century B.C.

    Genesis 20:3-9 and 30:7-9 describe adultery as "a great sin" and "a sin against God." Adultery breaks the 7th Commandment.

    In Exodus 16:22-30 we see that the Israelites are reminded all about the 7th Day Sabbath and told just how to gather their Manna in honor of that day. This all takes place well before Exodus 20's event of mt. Sinai and the Stone Tablets being given with the Commandments written upon them by the very finger of God, not once, but twice.

    Can you consider these facts and, in good faith, still hold to an opinion of the Commandments not being written to all those who believe in, and worship, the God of Heaven and Earth?
     
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  3. MatthewG

    MatthewG Well-Known Member

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    Hello GEN2Rev,

    Have no statement other than what has been provided before.

    Though in the notion of those who died before the Law; Everyone went to Hell, either to the Paradise part or the Prison part of Hell. Jesus went to this Hell, and preached to the spirit in prison from all those who had disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. (1 Peter 3:18-20). They were all judged when Hell gave up it's dead in Revelation 20:13.

    Thank you for your comments, and sharing more of your own view.
     
  4. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Active Member

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    None of it was my own view.

    It is all the viewpoint of scripture as every point I made was backed by scripture; as per usual.

    You started a thread asking a question, but clearly you don't really want to discuss that question unless everybody agrees with your views.

    Strange way to learn about the Bible, but ...
    ...Ok then.
     
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  5. MatthewG

    MatthewG Well-Known Member

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    Hello Gen2rev, going to answer your questions to best of my ability sir,

    Matt, would you be obligated to believe that the Commandments were given only to an ancient race of Israelites if you were presented with evidence that they were given much earlier than Exodus 20?​

    What do you mean by this?

    How can God punish anybody for breaking rules that He has never set forth for all to be aware of?​

    What are you talking about when it comes to this? The post in 23 believe answers this question.

    The Biblical definition of Sin is Lawlessness, the breaking of the Commandments. Is it not?
    1 John 3:4

    Yet we find this in Genesis 13:13:

    " ... the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord."​

    What is the point of all of these things, you are trying to teach? I believe that all people went to hell when they died even those who had law or did not have law.

    How could this be? How could they be sinning, or breaking any laws that had not yet been set forth by God? Better question: how could they be punished so severely by God for actions He had never stated as being unacceptable to Him before?
    Is disobeying God sinful and deserving in just punishment by the persons own choice in whatever happens to them because of their choice? That is a question you have to ask yourself.

    Sodom and Gomorrah are believed to have been destroyed around 2350 B.C. while the giving of the 10 Commandments on mt. Sinai took place around the 16th to 13th century B.C.
    Okay. Their are those out there whom suggest the remains of Sodom and Gomorrah are underneath the Dead Sea.

    Genesis 20:3-9 and 30:7-9 describe adultery as "a great sin" and "a sin against God." Adultery breaks the 7th Commandment.
    Okay.

    In Exodus 16:22-30 we see that the Israelites are reminded all about the 7th Day Sabbath and told just how to gather their Manna in honor of that day. This all takes place well before Exodus 20's event of mt. Sinai and the Stone Tablets being given with the Commandments written upon them by the very finger of God, not once, but twice.
    Okay what about it?

    Can you consider these facts and, in good faith, still hold to an opinion of the Commandments not being written to all those who believe in, and worship, the God of Heaven and Earth?
    Those 10 commandments according to the scripture was God speaking to the people whom He had brought out from Egypt.
     
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  6. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    Sure:

    Exegesis is reading the text and understanding i9t as written in light of other passages on the same subject.

    Eisegesis is reading th etext and interpreting it using ones own ideas as a basis for interpreting.

    Exegesis is a more critical method while eisegesis is a moresubjective method of understanding Scripture.
     
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  7. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Active Member

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    What I'm asking you here is 'Would you still believe that God only gave the 10 Commandments to the Israelites that were brought out of Egypt at the Exodus IF I were to be able to show you examples (evidence from scripture) of God's Commandments existing PRIOR to that time?'

    The rest of my post follows this premise by presenting examples (evidence) of that assertion and concludes with the original question restated.

    I am continuing with my original point by asking how God could punish those that He punished PRIOR to the official giving of the Commandments in stone to the Israelites at Mt. Sinai IF He had not TAUGHT these WAYS to anybody yet. The entire point of my post is that there is ample evidence in scripture that God DID punish people prior to that time AND the Bible mentions SIN prior to that time. SIN is the breaking of God's Laws. Are you following?
    What I am showing is that SIN existed LONG before the time that the Commandments were given to Israel. That means that the Commandments had been given to the world PRIOR to that. Romans 5:13 tells us that sin cannot be imputed (held against) someone until the Law exists. It was SURE held against all those in Sodom and Gomorrah and they were punished handsomely for it. Are we in agreement?
    This is more support of my previous point. I'm unclear about what your comment means.
    I'm making the point that if the punishment of Sodom was ~850 years PRIOR to the official giving of the Commands to the Israelites, then the Law was clearly already in existence upon the earth long before that time. Thus, they were not given ONLY to the Israelites. They were given to the world and ALL people in the world.

    Whether Sodom is under the sea or not has no bearing on this discussion.
    More evidence of Sin (Lawlessness = the breaking of God's Commands) existing long before the stone tablets were given to the Israelites. This example goes all the way back to Genesis. Thus, God's Law was present in the world before the stone tablets and was clearly given to everybody.
    More examples of the Commandments existing PRIOR to Exodus 20.
    Correct, BUT they were clearly given to all mankind much earlier than that time as I have proven here.

    Therefore, YES, the 10 Commandments WERE WRITTEN TO US and all mankind.
     
  8. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    RIGHT ON POINT!

    SIN IS ... Against God.
    My SIN...was Against God.
    AGAINST God...IS Disbelief IN the Lord God.
    ONCE...In confessed Heartful belief
    The Lord God...FORGIVES you.
    ONCE Forgiven...He Frees you From Sin.
    ONCE FREED:
    Your SIN (BY HIS LIGHT), is covered.
    He Accepts (BY HIS GRACE), your LIFE.
    He (BY HIS BLOOD), cleanses ur bodily LIFE.
    He Sets Apart (SANCTIFIES) your bodily LIFE.
    He (JUSTIFIES) your life to be:
    ...excepted from Wrath
    ...manifested, risen in Glory
    He (BY HIS POWER) Saves your soul.
    He (BY HIS SEED) Quickens your spirit.
    He (BY HIS WORD) forgets your sin.
    He (BY HIS PROMISE) KEEPS YOU, with & in Him FOREVER.

    We are NOT, able to KEEP ANY LAW IN PERFECTION, any more than the Tribes were ABLE to KEEP the Mosaic Laws without faultering.

    * We HAVE TWO LAWS...
    1) Love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul...
    2) Love your neighbor as yourself...

    Which we FREELY acquiesced our "inability" to KEEP, the those TWO LAWS, "BY OUR OWN POWER"...."unto the Lord Gods POWER "IN US"...that HE KEEPS "for us".

    Holy, Holy, Holy,
    Great is our Lord God Almighty...

    Taken
     
  9. MatthewG

    MatthewG Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for sharing your insight, With all here Gen2Rev.

    Thank you for sharing some of your insight with all here, Taken.
     
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  10. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Active Member

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    Correct. He frees you from your bondage and slavery to it. You are then free to be consciously aware of sin and to consciously work to remove it from your life via the assistance of the Holy Spirit within you.
    Yes, all PREVIOUS sin. All future sin from that point must be confessed and repented of (quit for good).
    Yes, only IF you discontinue sin.
    Yes, IF and only IF you work WITH His Holy Spirit to discontinue all sin and completely remove it from your life.
    "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He (The Father) takes away; ... Abide in Me (continue in My Way) ... As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the Vine, ...If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
    John 15:2, 4, 6
    We are not OF OURSELVES able to keep from sinning, we must utilize the Holy Spirit. The tribes did not have the Holy Spirit living within them. That was part of the purpose of Jesus dying in the physical; to then be able to live within us as the Spirit.
    I fixed it for you.
    Correct.
     
  11. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Active Member

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    My duty.

    All those with eyes to see and ears to hear will absorb it.

    God bless.
     
  12. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    We appear to agree on some points, but disagree on other points.

    My position is, My SIN was Against God. That has not Changed. ONCE Forgiven BY God, Freed from my Sin Against God...HIS POWER, "IN" ME KEEPS ME FROM EVER AGAIN BEING AGAINST God IN Disbelief. THUS ...I SIN NO MORE.

    Man AGAINST man, "WAS" a SIN, "under Mosaic Law".

    IF you "continue to SIN", "after Conversion"...
    WHAT SIN are you "committing"?
    Reverting to "DISBELIEF" IN GOD?
    OR
    Following Mosaic LAW, of sin being man against man?
     
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  13. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Active Member

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    It's unbelievable to me that you believe no sins can be committed against man anymore. Commandments 5-10 are sins against your fellow man and are committed perpetually.
    All 10 Commandments are sins against God. The first 4 are specifically against God.

    You are implying, in a very round-about way, that the only sin that God counts after conversion is unbelief.

    Respectfully, ... that is preposterous.

    And if you are even vaguely familiar with scripture, which I know that you are, you are aware that scripture makes clear that belief in God is NOT enough. Not even close. It is entirely possible to believe fully in God and continue to live in sin.

    For, "...even the demons believe and shudder ..."
    James 2:19

    You can rest assured that demons live in perpetual sin toward God. Therefore, their belief does not cause them to be sinless.

    Also, we are told in Romans 1:18-23 that everybody knows God exists; even atheists. God made sure of that so they are all without excuse. They consciously choose not to believe due to their lifestyle being threatened by His Ways.

    So your position that the only sin after conversion is unbelief doesn't even come close to standing up to the Light of scripture.
     
  14. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    I can not speak FOR you, ONLY me, according to what Scripturally APPLIES to me.

    * I am a Gentile.
    * Mosaic Laws were not given to me.
    * I did not agree to abide by Mosaic Laws.
    * Jesus fulfilled the Law.
    * Jesus did Not destroy the Law.
    * Many Jews do Not believe the Law was fulfilled.
    * Many Jews "continue" Under Mosaic Law.
    * Under the Law, Jews Can "sin against God", and "sin against their fellow man".
    * Forgiveness of "sin", for a Jew, was via an animals blood, performed expressly in the Temple IN Jerusalem.
    * There is No Temple in Jerusalem.
    * Forgiveness of "sin" Against God, Was/Is an Offering Jesus MADE unto All men OF the world.
    * 1 John 3:4 - Sin IS Transgression OF the Law. (NOT applicable to me).
    * Deut. 9:7 - Joshua 1:15 - Sin IS Rebellion (Disbelief) Against God. (WAS applicable to me...being naturally born IN SIN )- Pss 51:5
    * I was Not subject TO the LAW.
    * My Sin "WAS" Against God.
    * Only God can Forgive SIN. Luke 5:21
    * Jesus was given the Power to Forgive Sin.
    Luke 5:24
    * I Trust to Believe; Jesus Was Offered an Intercessory to Forgive my Sin AGAINST GOD
    1 John 1:19 (of me being naturally Born IN Sin Against God.)
    * I accepted Jesus' Offering OF HIS BLOOD, for Forgiveness of my Sin, Against God.
    ....
    I give you general Scriptural references, yet more Scriptures buttress my position.
    ....My SIN, was NOT according to the LAW, against men.
    ....My SIN, WAS AGAINST GOD.
    ....My SIN, Against God WAS Forgiven.

    IF, YOU believe YOU sin Against men...then YOU must also Have a LAW that "applies" to YOU, that your negative behavior toward a man "IS" a SIN....and a LAW that gives you "authority" TO FORGIVE SIN.

    * Perhaps you COULD (as I have), give a reference to the Scriptures, that Reveal the LAWS that Apply to YOU...
    * That your negative behavior "against men" IS a sin...AND...You were given "authority" within such Law...to Forgive Sin.

    Your express response would be most appreciated, to understand your perspective.
     
  15. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Acutally...Specifically, I am speaking of WHAT IS SIN...according TO Scripture...that APPLIES TO WHOM, and WHY....
    BEFORE Conversion.

    1 John 3:4....
    Transgression of the LAW...
    (SIN of MAN who Transgresses the LAW)...
    ~ Does Mosaic Law, APPLY to you?
    ~ Mosaic Law, DID NOT APPLY to me.
    Rom 5:13
    A LAW must APPLY to the Individual, BEFORE the LAW has any EFFECT on the Individual.

    Deut. 9:7
    Joshua 1:15
    Rebellion (Disbelief) Against God
    Applies to ALL men.
    Ps 51:5
    All men are naturally born Against God.
    (We are NOT naturally born, knowing OF God, let alone, Believing IN God)

    Your POV, no issue. Presently, We clearly understand differently...
     
  16. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    BELIEF...per Scriptural Teaching...and Study thereof; IS EXPRESSLY CLEAR...
    Belief....ACCORDING TO WHAT?
    1) The "natural carnal mind' of man?
    2) The "natural spirit" of man?

    The Study thereof...is IF...one believes;
    Man HAS two very different sources of belief;
    (Natural carnal mind AND Natural spirit of man);
    AND...WHAT are the TWO differences.
    AND..."BY" WHICH source;
    (The carnal mind OR the natural spirit)...
    IS the mans "SOURCE"... from which the man "IS" confessing BELIEF?)

    * When you say...BELIEF is not enough...
    (Not True, according to Scripture).
    Actually BELIEF "IS" enough... "IF"....
    The SOURCE of the mans BELIEF..."IS"...
    BELIEF "OF" the mans "NATURAL SPIRIT".
     
  17. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    THAT ^ is off point....To adequately COMPARE "belief"....requires "THE WHO" to be Comparable.
    ~ THE WHO, is completely Different.
    * Demonic Angels "ARE" spirits.
    * Human men "HAVE" a spirit.

    Again... off point.
    demonic angels "ARE" spirits
    human men "HAVE" a spirit.
    What A spirit DOES, has nothing to do with what a man DOES.



    Sinless...IS NOT the topic.
    NO HUMAN MAN is SINLESS.
    Again, trying to compare TWO Different things...(a human man and a spirit)...is wandering way off topic.
    Forgivness OF SIN...DOES NOT "MAKE" a human man "SIN-LESS".


     
  18. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Don't agree, "everybody knows God exists".
    There is a difference between...knowing...and believing.
    There is the challenge...one to another...how do "you know", prove it.
    What God "shewed" to men...
    WAS...in the OT...listen, watch and see.
    * God revealed He IS God, by His own Declaration. (His Word).
    * God then FORETOLD, this and that, WOULD HAPPEN.
    * As the FORETELLING, came to pass, THAT, was mans PROOF, of Gods Existence.
    * From early on...beginning with Adam...being told...man lives...man shall die.
    Nothing has changed, that comes to pass.
    Men for centuries have observed men living, men dying.
    * Men CAN decide for themselves...(via FREEWILL)... Intellectually, Logically, Physiologically, Scientifically; ie MINDFULLY
    IF God exists or not.
    * Men CAN decide for themselves...(via FREEWILL)...HEARTFULLY IF God exists of not.

    WHO IS WITHOUT EXCUSE?
    IS in Rom 1:21
    He who KNEW, then Rejected.
    (This is primarily speaking TO the Hebrews and Tribesmen...Whose History was steeped in God...but by scattering of the Tribes, and influence of Gentiles...they began mimicking Gentiles...making idols "their" gods. Rom 1:23.

    Rom 1:
    [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    [19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    [20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    [22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    [23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    A further Understanding IS:

    Jesus came Preaching the Word of God...
    The Word of God....IS "spirit"...absolute TRUTH...It does NOT require the "intellect" of the MIND (to logically PICK between This and That)...
    See the difference?
    The MIND, has to decide between this and that.
    The spirit of man, can BELIEVE, Gods Word IS TRUTH...or not.

    HOW CAN A MAN BELIEVE, Gods Word IS TRUTH?
    * ONLY ONE WAY....
    * The man HAS TO "HEAR" Gods Word.
    (That IS the mans Effort).
    * And For Every man WHO HEARS Gods Word; God Himself; GIVES THAT man...
    Measures of Faith...with IS giving that man...
    BELIEF.
    * AND WHY....Jesus Preached, and Jesus Appointed men, and Jesus Sent men, and THEY "repeated" Jesus' Words, over and over and over FOR men TO HEAR....and men repeating over and over for men to HEAR...The Word of God....spreading Over centuries...the World Over...Hearing the Word of God...
    Men can NOT..."unhear" what they HAVE HEARD.
    Men HEARING, is precisely, the "WAY", a man "receives", measures of Gods gift of "faith"...
    Hear MORE, receive MORE Faith.
    You are aware of the world spreading of Gods Word....as well you are aware of MEN, who TRY to KEEP men from Hearing Gods Word.
    ( Men spread Gods Word openly preaching and preaching secretly passing the Truth from generation to generation (against "some" mans laws)...

    ONCE "THEY" hear... By Gods "gift" of "FAITH", (Holy Spirit to mans spirit)... is the beginning of a mans BELIEF...
    THAT IS NOT receiving SALVATION...
    THAT IS receiving FAITH.

    It is THEN, Applicable....THEY become "WITHOUT" excuse...to NOT BELIEVE.

    Paul's Preaching to the Romans (Gentiles)...
    Was not exclusive to the Gentiles...it included Jews as well, standing in the crowds listening.
    God Almighty was a new Concept to the Gentiles (primarily idol god worshipers) and Jesus, was a new Concept to the Jews (God A SPIRIT, in the flesh likeness "as a man"...)
    And PFFF....a man with no pomp, kingdom, political power, army, etc.... Hard for them to believe....Hard for any man to believe....
    WITHOUT Hearing, and receiving Gods measures of His gift of FAITH.

    So YES....men ARE without EXCUSE...
    But the HOW and WHY is different, Because of Divisional Circumstances...
    between Jews and Gentiles.
    Jews having a LONG History of belief in God Almighty...and Gentiles having a LONG History of belief in "idols and men" being their gods.

    THAT WAS NEVER my Position!
    Unbelief...IN the Lord God...
    IS NOT POSSIBLE "AFTER" Conversion.
    Unbelief...IS is the NATURAL "condition", of a natural born man.
    Pss 51:5
     
  19. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Well-Known Member

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    All Scripture is given by God, and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.
     
  20. MatthewG

    MatthewG Well-Known Member

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    Hello MJH29,

    Believe that even using that scripture is out of context, from what is being said directly in Exodus 20 (God bringing out a people from bondage in Egypt).

    Do agree with it (2 Timothy 3:16-17) on an individual basis when a person goes and reads the word of God and worship God in spirit and truth (John 4:24). You can look at, observe, see and find out how you, me, whoever else can not match up to these standards 100% perfectly, when looking at Exodus 20.

    That scripture you shared is true, anyone who comes to learn about God and Jesus are going to learn more about the Heavenly ways (James 3:16-18) and the Earthly ways (Ephesians 4:31; Colossians 3:8) though anyone who goes through the bible will find out what is existing with-in them. Even renewing the spirit of the mind (Ephesians 4:23).

    Thank you for sharing and commenting,
    MJH29.
     
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