WHAT ALMOST ALL PREMILLENNIALISTS DO NOT NOTICE OR REFUSE TO SEE

[rwb]

Speaking of inheriting something.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Don't most Premils already agree that this is something that takes place when Christ intially returns, this sheep and goats judgment?

That's the problem with Premillennialists! You only have understanding of that which you can physically see. If you could see through eyes of faith (spiritual sight) you would understand those who inherit the age (Kingdom) to come after this age of time shall be no more, are those who have already spiritually lived and reigned with Christ in time, symbolized a thousand years. They are the sheep on the right hand of Christ, while the goats on His left that "shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

So the sheep are going to inherit the everlasting kingdom when Christ initially returns except the tree of life won't be in it yet, they have to wait another thousand years for that. Yea, right. That makes good sense---not.

Exactly! It makes no sense at all to argue the goats will still be among the sheep in the everlasting Kingdom of God, but only for one thousand literal years! Why would the goats (unbelievers) get to continue for one thousand more years of time after Christ has come again since the Kingdom of God will be complete and there will be no more opportunity for them to be eternally saved?

 

[Davidpt]

The foundation of which creation?

Is Jesus promising them a future foundation or the one in Genesis 1?

How do you insert the tree of life into Matthew 25?

The Garden of Eden was not created on the 6th day, nor the 7th, nor the 8th, ......

The Garden of Eden and the tree of life was formed/created after the Sabbath, Day of the Lord. You would have to come up with a verse that says the tree of life existed in heaven prior to the other days of creation. The tree of life was not on the earth since the foundation of the world.

The tree of life has been in Paradise in heaven at least since the Flood, if not before that, like when Enoch could no longer be found. Did Enoch enter the Garden of Eden? That would be one way of no longer being found. Enoch would still have to be translated to enter the Garden of Eden. None of Adam and Eve's offspring could enter in their state of death and sin. Was Paradise/the Garden already in heaven at that point, or did Enoch and Paradise get moved to heaven instead of being destroyed in the Flood?

The New Jerusalem will replace Paradise. But not until Revelation 21. Paradise is still where the church is in heaven during the Day of the Lord while the sheep are alive on the earth, in Israel.

Where in Scripture does it mention the tree of life, and that is where it mentions either on earth or in heaven?

You might be making some good points here for all I know, except you already lost me here. I'm not certain what you are getting at here?

 

[Davidpt]

That's the problem with Premillennialists! You only have understanding of that which you can physically see. If you could see through eyes of faith (spiritual sight) you would understand those who inherit the age (Kingdom) to come after this age of time shall be no more, are those who have already spiritually lived and reigned with Christ in time, symbolized a thousand years. They are the sheep on the right hand of Christ, while the goats on His left that "shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."


Exactly! It makes no sense at all to argue the goats will still be among the sheep in the everlasting Kingdom of God, but only for one thousand literal years! Why would the goats (unbelievers) get to continue for one thousand more years of time after Christ has come again since the Kingdom of God will be complete and there will be no more opportunity for them to be eternally saved?

In my view though, and there are even Premils that disagree with me here, I interpret the sheep and goats judgment in context not outside of context. Beginning with Matthew 24 starting from maybe verse 42 through verse 30 in Matthew 25, it gives us the context for the sheep and goats judgment. Anyone reading those verses I just mentioned couldn't possibly miss the fact that they are involving professed servants of Christ, profitable and unprofitable. Therefore, the sheep are meaning His profitable servants, the goats are meaning His unprofitable servants.

Maybe you all have a different view as to how context typically works than what I do, but in context the goats are not meaning all the lost since the world began. They are only meaning His professed servants, unprofitable ones in this case. And clearly, Cain, for example, was never a professed servant of His, thus, though he is obviously among the lost, he is not at this judgment though, but he will be present at the great white throne judgment.

IOW, the sheep and goats judgment and the great white throne judgment are not the same judgment, the same way, for example, that Revelation 20:10 is not the same judgment as Revelation 20:11-15. satan will already be in the LOF before the judgment pertaining to Revelation 20:11-15 takes place. Nor is Revelation 19:20 the same judgment as Revelation 20:11-15. In the event you might disagree for some reason, you would then need to point out in Revelation 20:11-15 where you see the beast and false prophet standing among the dead that have been raised back to life.

 

[rwb]

In my view though, and there are even Premils that disagree with me here, I interpret the sheep and goats judgment in context not outside of context. Beginning with Matthew 24 starting from maybe verse 42 through verse 30 in Matthew 25, it gives us the context for the sheep and goats judgment. Anyone reading those verses I just mentioned couldn't possibly miss the fact that they are involving professed servants of Christ, profitable and unprofitable. Therefore, the sheep are meaning His profitable servants, the goats are meaning His unprofitable servants.

Maybe you all have a different view as to how context typically works than what I do, but in context the goats are not meaning all the lost since the world began. They are only meaning His professed servants, unprofitable ones in this case. And clearly, Cain, for example, was never a professed servant of His, thus, though he is obviously among the lost, he is not at this judgment though, but he will be present at the great white throne judgment.

IOW, the sheep and goats judgment and the great white throne judgment are not the same judgment, the same way, for example, that Revelation 20:10 is not the same judgment as Revelation 20:11-15. satan will already be in the LOF before the judgment pertaining to Revelation 20:11-15 takes place. Nor is Revelation 19:20 the same judgment as Revelation 20:11-15. In the event you might disagree for some reason, you would then need to point out in Revelation 20:11-15 where you see the beast and false prophet standing among the dead that have been raised back to life.

David, the eternal fate for the goats shall be "everlasting punishment". There won't be one thousand more years of time given them to become part with the sheep after Christ comes again and time shall be no longer. Even if there were two separate judgments (which there shall not be) what difference would it make for those who stand before in judgment as the goats? Will everlasting punishment somehow no longer be everlasting for them?

Rev 20 is depicting the fate of all of humanity! Every human being shall be counted among those living and reigning with Christ in time before they physically die, or they shall be counted among the DEAD. None of the dead (spiritually and physically) shall be resurrected to life again until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer. All who have died in unbelief shall be raised to life again to stand before the Judgment Throne of God, none of the DEAD will be exempt all whose names are not recorded in the book of life shall be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

 

[rwb]

Anyone reading those verses I just mentioned couldn't possibly miss the fact that they are involving professed servants of Christ, profitable and unprofitable. Therefore, the sheep are meaning His profitable servants, the goats are meaning His unprofitable servants.

Being a professed servant of Christ according to the good deeds we do in life, is not the same as being a true servant of Christ that looks to Him, knowing that it is our duty to do good deeds and apart from God working in us all our deeds are but filthy rags. Believers don't look for rewards for doing good, they thank Christ, knowing our good deeds are the result of God working in us to do of His good pleasure.

 

[Timtofly]

The new heaven and new earth that shall come after this time, symbolized a thousand years has expired, shall only be occupied by whosoever overcomes in this age.

Why is a thousand years not literal? A clock symbolizes time, should a clock not be literal either? You acknowledge a specified period of time with a defined beginning and a defined end, yet you dismiss the length as not being important at all.

Do you not understand that the symbolic reference is the Day of the Lord? The literal representation is a thousand years. Just like a clock represents half of a 24 hour day, the thousand years in both 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 20, is the literal time frame of the phrase "Day of the Lord" The Day of the Lord is not a literal 24 hours, but it is a literal thousand years.

Even in the NT the use of "these last days", can represent "last millennia" as well.

What is "this age" even mean when you use it? The dispensation since the Cross? The time from Genesis 1? If this age is since the Cross was there a different age prior to the Cross? Why do you have to be vague? Why does Revelation 20 even have to be your only defined time of "this age", whatever you mean by that time, to begin with?

 

[rwb]

Why is a thousand years not literal?

How can this time be literal since it is time the martyred saints lived and reigned with Christ before they were murdered, and it is also time when the blessed and holy, he that has part in the first resurrection, overcome the second death, who shall be priests of God and of Christ SHALL reign with Christ? How can a thousand years be literally one thousand years of time if it is both past for those who have been martyred for their faith, but it is also future for those who shall reign with Christ?

This fact alone proves "a thousand years" is not literally one thousand years but is symbolic of time that began with the first advent of Christ, and shall end when time shall be no longer. We have been living in this symbolic period of time that represents the age of grace as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is being sent unto all the nations of the world, the time the prophets foretell is the Day of the Lord that began with the first coming of Christ that will have a final/last Day of the Lord when the last trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer, or as some translate there shall no longer be delay. The mystery of God complete!

 

[Timtofly]

Speaking for myself it would obviously mean Amil is the correct position in that case, since there is no way in a million years that the NHNE don't soon follow the 2nd coming. A thousand years and a little season later is not soon after. Not to mention, what all it would contradict in that case.

Let's start with something Jesus said in the Discourse. And let's try and connect some dots based on what He said.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


Right here it plainly tells us, thus nothing to dispute, that when the heaven and earth shall pass away,
that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

It would be pretty silly not to apply verse 36 to events involving His 2nd coming, don't you think? IOW, who would apply verse 36 to an era of time 1000 plus years post that of His 2nd coming? Anyone that would is obviously very confused about things, no doubt.

In regards to verse 36, in verse 35 it mentions 2 different things. Obviously, this part--but my words shall not pass away---couldn't possibly be pertaining to verse 36. Therefore, only this part can be---Heaven and earth shall pass away

Thus far we know this--Heaven and earth shall pass away, but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. And that this couldn't possibly be meaning a thousand years post His 2nd coming. If we continue to connect the dots, shouldn't this lead us to what is recorded in 1 Thessalonians 5 and 2 Peter 3, for one? What do those chapters involve? They involve the day of the Lord coming like a thief in the night. Can that fit the day and hour no man knows? Of course it can.

It is then a question of, does anything in 1 Thessalonians 5 or 2 Peter 3 support the heaven and earth passing away during a day and hour no man knows, that only the Father knows? Of course there is something that supports that unless one is just plain blind or misapplying it by applying it to an era of time it is not even involving, such as a thousand years post the 2nd coming rather than during the 2nd coming.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.



There's your day and hour no man knows---the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night

There's your heaven passing away---in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise

And there is your earth passing away---the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

It can't get any clearer than this, the heavens and earth pass away during the events involving the 2nd coming. And at this point the great white throne judgment hasn't even begun yet unless 2 Peter 3:10 is meaning the great white throne judgment. Amils might even believe it is meaning the GWTJ for all I know. But I don't think it is meaning that myself.

Regardless, the heaven and earth are passing away here in 2 Peter 3:10, and that it happens during the events involving the 2nd coming, not a thousand years later instead. What now? No earth to dwell upon at all since most Premils insist that the NHNE doesn't begin during the 2nd coming. Can't dwell upon the old earth during the thousand years if it already passed away before the thousand years began. Can't dwell upon the new earth during the thousand years if it doesn't even arrive until after the thousand years. No wonder I asked, what now?

Once again, if Premil is the correct position, The NHNE have to begin during the 2nd coming events since there is no way to twist what I submitted above and make it be meaning a thousand years post the 2nd coming, then expecting some of the rest of us to take that interpretation serious. Or the other option is, if one still insists that the NHNE can't begin until after the thousand years, only one position can fit that scenario in that case, and it for sure isn't Premil.

Where would you place the NHNE in 1 Corinthians 15? Because premill can clearly place the Millennium between the Second Coming and the end. Then after the end, the NHNE.

Why would you place the end 1000 years after the NHNE? Are there 2 new creations to come?

 

[TribulationSigns]

gobblygook. Israel is Israel and the church is the church- they are not each other.

Is this the best you say in your refutation against my posts? Try to do better by quoting actual Scripture to prove me wrong, instead of your speculations or personal opinions believe that there are two separate groups of God's people. You have no idea of how the covenant Israel works.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, John's vision (Rev 21) is of what shall be because of what is now coming to pass. The new heaven and new earth that shall come after this time, symbolized a thousand years has expired, shall only be occupied by whosoever overcomes in this age.

Revelation 21:7 (KJV) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Very clearly with verse separations or without no unbeliever can occupy the new heaven and new earth because during this age of time, symbolized a thousand years they remain spiritually dead, and are outside the gates of the holy city new Jerusalem that is in heaven. And they shall have their part in the lake of fire that is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 (KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Yet it's all walls and gates and nothing that defiles being allowed in, as though it would even be necessary to speak about those who had already been destroyed in the lake of fire in such a way as to imply that they were still being kept outside while the tribute of the nations was being brought into New Jerusalem by the kings of the earth.

How's this possible - that walls and gates should be keeping certain souls outside while kings and priests are bringing the tribute of the nations into New Jerusalem in the NHNE - when Jesus will have handed the Kingdom back to God the Father by then, having put an end to all (human) rule, authority and power?

It's only possible in a thousand year reign of Christ, the Son of man, and of kings and priests under Christ's authority doing the will of God the Father - just like the first man to have been called the son of God was doing in the Garden of Eden for who knows how long until Satan was permitted by God to put the humans God had created to the test, who succeeded in deceiving them.

Only difference being that the first time around, it resulted in the first death - Adam's death, which spread to all mankind because all sinned - and grace and mercy in the sacrifice of Christ and for the sake of Christ before and since the death and resurrection of Christ, who IS the resurrection from the first death.

But there will be no second sacrifice for sins and no second resurrection from the second death.

IMO Amils have the thousand years 2,000 years too early but the NHNE in the correct place, while ignoring the plain and literal meaning of Satan being bound and shut in the abyss so that he should deceive the nations no more for a thousand years + the plain and literal meaning of souls having perished for refusal to worship the beast being seen alive in their bodies again, in what John heard called "the first resurrection", etc;

and most Premils have the commencement of the thousand years in the correct place, but the NHNE 1,000 years too late.

And all because of an overspirtualized understanding of what the metaphorical language describing the NHNE is telling us. As though the Garden of Eden was too perfect for anything like what ended Adam's time there to have taken place. After all, everything God had created was indeed completely good.

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Genesis 1:25.

So if sin cannot happen one more time at the close of the first thousand years in a NHNE after Christ has made all things new because "the NHNE is going to be way to spiritual and perfectly good" (which it will be, just like the Garden of Eden was) for such a thing to even be possible, then it could not have happened in the Garden of Eden either, for all that God had created was very good.

So rather than imagine such an awful scenario as Gog-Magog nations being deceived one more time by Satan and gathered one more time to battle after a thousand years in a NHNE - of which the Garden of Eden is the prototype - we believers will explain away all scripture that negates our view.

One thing Amils are correct about: It's impossible for anyone after the return of our Savior to be eating freely of the tree of life the way Adam did, outside of New Jerusalem.

Copy @ewq1938 @CadyandZoe @Timtofly @Davidpt and everyone else engaged in this conversation.​

 

[Davidpt]

Where would you place the NHNE in 1 Corinthians 15? Because premill can clearly place the Millennium between the Second Coming and the end. Then after the end, the NHNE.

Why would you place the end 1000 years after the NHNE? Are there 2 new creations to come?

Unless someone thinks they can debunk what I submitted in post #76, that post alone adequetely proves that the NHNE begins during the 2nd coming events. There is no way around that fact, the fact, that if per the 2nd coming the heaven and earth pass away at that time, there then has to be something to replace it, otherwise we end up with no earth at all if the old one passed away and that the new one doesn't take it's place at the time.

It's one thing for Premils to think the thousand years are not involving the new earth. But what Premil thinks, well, besides SDAs I guess, that the thousand years involve no earth at all? It obviously can't be involving the old earth if it passed away. What earth does that leave as the only logical choice if not the new earth? Even Isaiah 65 is involving a new earth, and that pretty much all Premils agree that the passage in question is involving the thousand years. Then they go right around that fact by contradicting that by insisting the the NHNE don't begin until after the thousand years. I don't know if that is an example of contradicting something without realizing it, or if it's an example of contradicting something on purpose? One thing is for certain though, it is not reasonable to argue that Isaiah 65 is involving the thousand years when it is crystal clear in the text itself that it is also involving the NHNE, then argue that the NHNE don't begin until after the thousand years.

Since I am unconvinced that Amil is the correct position, but 100% convinced that the NHNE begin during the 2nd coming events, what choice do I have but to conclude that the thousand years are the beginning of the everlasting NHNE? If I instead agree with most all other Premils that the NHNE begins after the thousand years, I am then contradicting that I'm already 100% convinced that the NHNE begin during the 2nd coming events. Since it is not reasonable, that if I'm already 100% convinced that the NHNE begin during the 2nd coming events, that I then also agree that the NHNE doesn't begin until after the thousand years. If that is not an example of a plain as day contradiction if I were to do that, nothing is. It's one thing to contradict something without even realizing it. It is another thing altogether to contradict something on purpose. The latter is not acceptable, or least not to me anyway.

I have at least 2 options here then. Either I conclude that the NHNE is paralleling the thousand years, or I conclude Premil is not the correct position after all, Amil is. But how can I conclude the latter when I'm not even convinced the latter is the correct position to begin with? So what if they have the beginning of the NHNE in the correct place? That doesn't necessarily mean they have the thousand years in the correct place as well.

 

[ewq1938]

and most Premils have the commencement of the thousand years in the correct place, but the NHNE 1,000 years too late.
​

No, they have both in the correct place. Doctrines like Amill started with a falsehood that grew and grew. You have your own falsehood, that the NHNE starts when the Millennium does. All of Rev 20 takes place before Rev 21-22. Sea, death, sorrow fear and pain exist during and after the Millennium but none exist in the NHNE. satan does not exist in the NHNE but you teach he does.

 

[ewq1938]

Suppose that God removed the domain of the sea. What would happen to the sea creatures who lived there? If God removed the air, could birds fly or survive? I think we can safely conclude that if God were to eliminate a domain, everything in that domain would no longer exist.

Animals do not exist in the NHNE, at least the ones from the old Earth.

For this reason, I take it that when Revelation says that "no place was found for them" this means they no longer exist.

I see no evidence for that. If I said there was no place for my car, it doesn't mean the car doesn't exist.

I don't know where the GWTJ will be held, but I agree with your view that it will take place in a domain other than the one hosting the earth and the heavens.

Consider this:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

In your belief, the Earth and heaven is gone completely.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

If the Earth didn't exist, there would be no sea for these dead to come from. That proves the sea and old Earth still exist during this timeframe.

 

[Timtofly]

How can this time be literal since it is time the martyred saints lived and reigned with Christ before they were murdered, and it is also time when the blessed and holy, he that has part in the first resurrection, overcome the second death, who shall be priests of God and of Christ SHALL reign with Christ? How can a thousand years be literally one thousand years of time if it is both past for those who have been martyred for their faith, but it is also future for those who shall reign with Christ?

This fact alone proves "a thousand years" is not literally one thousand years but is symbolic of time that began with the first advent of Christ, and shall end when time shall be no longer. We have been living in this symbolic period of time that represents the age of grace as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is being sent unto all the nations of the world, the time the prophets foretell is the Day of the Lord that began with the first coming of Christ that will have a final/last Day of the Lord when the last trumpet sounds that time shall be no longer, or as some translate there shall no longer be delay. The mystery of God complete!

This time is not their time alive in Adam's dead corruptible physical body. The one we are born with.


You are missing the whole point this Day of the Lord is after they were physically beheaded. The Day of the Lord is as it was prior to Adam's disobedience.


When Adam disobeyed, he lost his permanent incorruptible physical body, and was given a body of death.

The Day of the Lord is humans living on earth in a brand new incorruptible physical body without natural death, nor a sin nature.

This will be life on earth after the Second Coming and all dead flesh is destroyed. Those beheaded stand before thrones, are judged, and awarded eternal life without sin. That is why they live and reign the entire 1,000 years. The same literal time Satan is bound.

There is no verse in Revelation 20 that says people are constantly dying and given the first resurrection over and over again.

The sheep judged in Matthew 25 are not beheaded, but they also stand in judgment and receive the first resurrection out of corruption into incorruption and eternal life. No one takes their dead corruptible physical body into the Day of the Lord. That is the part in Daniel 9:24 that the transgression is removed from the entire earth. No more under the bondage of sin and death.

 

[Timtofly]

So if sin cannot happen one more time at the close of the first thousand years in a NHNE after Christ has made all things new because "the NHNE is going to be way to spiritual and perfectly good" (which it will be, just like the Garden of Eden was) for such a thing to even be possible, then it could not have happened in the Garden of Eden either, for all that God had created was very good.

So rather than imagine such an awful scenario as Gog-Magog nations being deceived one more time by Satan and gathered one more time to battle after a thousand years in a NHNE - of which the Garden of Eden is the prototype - we believers will explain away all scripture that negates our view.

No one should place sin being on the earth when Satan is released. No one is ever said to disobey. It is said they are deceived.

Eve was deceived to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil. The deception at the end of the Day of the Lord is not exactly the same as just eating from a tree and dying.

They were deceived to do battle, but there was never a battle. They were consumed by fire just for thinking about war. Was it a test, who knows? Evidently they failed the test as they were consumed by fire. Until someone can point out the exact nature of their disobedience, there is no sin either.

That people are deceived is not imagination. That is expressly what John wrote. You cannot turn that into your own symbolism and state your opinion as the Word of God.

And until Satan is released after the Day of the Lord, there cannot be a separate and totally different creation as explained in Revelation 21. All you are stating is that there is a third intermediate creation between this creation and the one in Revelation 21.

 

[Timtofly]

Unless someone thinks they can debunk what I submitted in post #76, that post alone adequetely proves that the NHNE begins during the 2nd coming events. There is no way around that fact, the fact, that if per the 2nd coming the heaven and earth pass away at that time, there then has to be something to replace it, otherwise we end up with no earth at all if the old one passed away and that the new one doesn't take it's place at the time.

It's one thing for Premils to think the thousand years are not involving the new earth. But what Premil thinks, well, besides SDAs I guess, that the thousand years involve no earth at all? It obviously can't be involving the old earth if it passed away. What earth does that leave as the only logical choice if not the new earth? Even Isaiah 65 is involving a new earth, and that pretty much all Premils agree that the passage in question is involving the thousand years. Then they go right around that fact by contradicting that by insisting the the NHNE don't begin until after the thousand years. I don't know if that is an example of contradicting something without realizing it, or if it's an example of contradicting something on purpose? One thing is for certain though, it is not reasonable to argue that Isaiah 65 is involving the thousand years when it is crystal clear in the text itself that it is also involving the NHNE, then argue that the NHNE don't begin until after the thousand years.

Since I am unconvinced that Amil is the correct position, but 100% convinced that the NHNE begin during the 2nd coming events, what choice do I have but to conclude that the thousand years are the beginning of the everlasting NHNE? If I instead agree with most all other Premils that the NHNE begins after the thousand years, I am then contradicting that I'm already 100% convinced that the NHNE begin during the 2nd coming events. Since it is not reasonable, that if I'm already 100% convinced that the NHNE begin during the 2nd coming events, that I then also agree that the NHNE doesn't begin until after the thousand years. If that is not an example of a plain as day contradiction if I were to do that, nothing is. It's one thing to contradict something without even realizing it. It is another thing altogether to contradict something on purpose. The latter is not acceptable, or least not to me anyway.

I have at least 2 options here then. Either I conclude that the NHNE is paralleling the thousand years, or I conclude Premil is not the correct position after all, Amil is. But how can I conclude the latter when I'm not even convinced the latter is the correct position to begin with? So what if they have the beginning of the NHNE in the correct place? That doesn't necessarily mean they have the thousand years in the correct place as well.

Because you have yet to post a verse that states the earth passes away at the 6th Seal, even before the 7th Seal and the 1st Trumpet.

You cannot ignore and contradict 1 Corinthians 15, because Paul explains why the earth does not pass away at the Second Coming, but after the end when the Millennial Day of the Lord has been completed as well as Satan's little season.

Paul is the corroboration that the 1,000 years is between the Second Coming and the NHNE. 2 Peter 3 may imply or be interpreted as the earth being burned up. Or it is just the works that are burned up at the opening of the 6th Seal. You have to have the NHNE also include the final harvest of the GT, the 7 Thunders and Satan's 42 months on the New Earth. The earth is certainly not burned up at Armageddon. The earth is not burned up after the Day of the Lord. The earth is returned to God by Jesus in the same condition it was in, on the 7th Day of creation. God does not accept burnt offerings. Why would Jesus hand God a burnt up creation?

BTW: your post #76 is what I quoted as being wrong. The heavens passed away at the Flood, as that heaven never rained. There was a water canopy above the firmament, that passed away, by coming to the earth, expanding the size of our current ocean. Heaven passing away is not the same as no longer existing. In the 6th Seal, heaven passes away, because all the stars come to earth, and the firmament that was created in Genesis 1 is dissolved. You can still have an earth without a firmament. The firmament was originally there to divide the waters on the earth from those above the firmament. The place where the stars are. At the 6th Seal, all the stars leave the firmament and come to earth. That is Scripture, not human guess work nor imagination. Passing away means there is a change, not necessarily a totally different creation each time.

It could be pointed out that in the NHNE there is no water at all, and thus no firmament necessary either. What the New Heaven is like is not described in Revelation 21. By no water at all, I mean no oceans nor rain from the firmament. There will be lakes and rivers. No seas we call oceans, nor weather as we know it, nor the 4 seasons as we experience from hot to cold, and back to hot. Even the New Jerusalem takes up 1200 square miles of real estate. There may be other cities just as large throughout the New Earth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yet it's all walls and gates and nothing that defiles being allowed in, as though it would even be necessary to speak about those who had already been destroyed in the lake of fire in such a way as to imply that they were still being kept outside while the tribute of the nations was being brought into New Jerusalem by the kings of the earth.​

Your approach to these passages has a major disadvantage in this respect. You treat the account as if it were a news report rather than what it is—prophecy. If this were a news report, the passage would not recapitulate or repeat itself. But prophecy is a different genre in that it not only predicts future events, it also teaches, encourages, and gives hope. John opens the book of Revelation with a benediction: "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy . . . "

For example, Revelation 21:8 concerning the fearful and unbelieving is not meant to give us new information as if it were a news report. The statement is meant to encourage and bless those who read it. What is the message? The people who made life miserable, painful, and futile will no longer be around to torment anyone. Those who rape children will be gone. Those who kill fathers will be gone. Those who abuse and sell women will be gone. That is a very encouraging idea.

How's this possible - that walls and gates should be keeping certain souls outside while kings and priests are bringing the tribute of the nations into New Jerusalem in the NHNE - when Jesus will have handed the Kingdom back to God the Father by then, having put an end to all (human) rule, authority and power?

The thousand-year reign of Christ on earth is NOT the new Jerusalem. The purpose of the thousand years is not about Jesus or his church; the purpose of the thousand years is to provide an occasion for Yahweh to vindicate his holy name. Joel refers to this time as "the Valley of Decision" and the issue is whether Yahweh is God or not.

The NHNE does not begin the day that Jesus returns. He and Israel will be granted hegemony over the rest of the world for a thousand years first. Then Satan will be released in order to cause the rest of the world to come against Israel. All of this is to vindicate God's holy name.

The question is: Can Yahweh take a people for himself? And will they serve him and obey him?

Thousand-years: During this time, the Jewish people, under the leadership of Jesus Christ, obey God and keep his commandments, thus proving that it was always possible for Israel to be his people.

Satan causes war against Israel: The defeat of Israel's enemies with fire from heaven clearly proves that not only is God capable of defeating Israel's enemies without help, it also proves that there is NO god but Yahweh.

Only after God has vindicated his name, will he bring the New Jerusalem down to earth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, John's vision (Rev 21) is of what shall be because of what is now coming to pass. The new heaven and new earth that shall come after this time, symbolized a thousand years has expired, shall only be occupied by whosoever overcomes in this age.

Revelation 21:7 (KJV) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Very clearly with verse separations or without no unbeliever can occupy the new heaven and new earth because during this age of time, symbolized a thousand years they remain spiritually dead, and are outside the gates of the holy city new Jerusalem that is in heaven. And they shall have their part in the lake of fire that is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 (KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

May I repeat what I said to "Zao is life"?

The thousand-year reign of Christ on earth is NOT the new Jerusalem. The purpose of the thousand years is not about Jesus or his church; the purpose of the thousand years is to provide an occasion for Yahweh to vindicate his holy name. Joel refers to this time as "the Valley of Decision" and the issue is whether Yahweh is God or not.

The NHNE does not begin the day that Jesus returns. He and Israel will be granted hegemony over the rest of the world for a thousand years first. Then Satan will be released in order to cause the rest of the world to come against Israel. All of this is to vindicate God's holy name.

The question is: Can Yahweh take a people for himself? And will they serve him and obey him?

Thousand-years: During this time, the Jewish people, under the leadership of Jesus Christ, obey God and keep his commandments, thus proving that it was always possible for Israel to be his people.

Satan causes war against Israel: The defeat of Israel's enemies with fire from heaven clearly proves that not only is God capable of defeating Israel's enemies without help, it also proves that there is NO god but Yahweh.

Only after God has vindicated his name, will he bring the New Jerusalem down to earth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Animals do not exist in the NHNE, at least the ones from the old Earth.

The point is that things or beings can not live long outside of the domain God assigned to them.

I see no evidence for that. If I said there was no place for my car, it doesn't mean the car doesn't exist.

Sure it does. Think about it. Nothing exists apart from a place. You might say, "No garage was found for my car." In that case, you would be correct. The absence of a garage does not imply the absence of a car. The car will certainly exist in the driveway or on the street. But what if there were NO PLACE for a car at all—no garage, driveway, street, open field, nothing? What if the earth disappeared and the car was left hanging out in space?

Even space is a place. The term NO PLACE means the thing that is supposed to exist has no location and, therefore, no existence in reality.

Consider this:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

In your belief, the Earth and heaven is gone completely.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

If the Earth didn't exist, there would be no sea for these dead to come from. That proves the sea and old Earth still exist during this timeframe.

While John records that there was no place found for the heavens and the earth, he locates Jesus at a different place, which locates the dead in the same place. Presumably then, the dead were raised prior to the nullification of the heavens and the earth.

 

[rwb]

May I repeat what I said to "Zao is life"?

The thousand-year reign of Christ on earth is NOT the new Jerusalem. The purpose of the thousand years is not about Jesus or his church; the purpose of the thousand years is to provide an occasion for Yahweh to vindicate his holy name. Joel refers to this time as "the Valley of Decision" and the issue is whether Yahweh is God or not.

The NHNE does not begin the day that Jesus returns. He and Israel will be granted hegemony over the rest of the world for a thousand years first. Then Satan will be released in order to cause the rest of the world to come against Israel. All of this is to vindicate God's holy name.

The question is: Can Yahweh take a people for himself? And will they serve him and obey him?

Thousand-years: During this time, the Jewish people, under the leadership of Jesus Christ, obey God and keep his commandments, thus proving that it was always possible for Israel to be his people.

Satan causes war against Israel: The defeat of Israel's enemies with fire from heaven clearly proves that not only is God capable of defeating Israel's enemies without help, it also proves that there is NO god but Yahweh.

Only after God has vindicated his name, will he bring the New Jerusalem down to earth.

The thousand years equate to time! Time given this earth for building new Jerusalem that is now located in heaven. New Jerusalem is the abode of God and where the spiritual body of Christ dwells after our natural, mortal body of flesh dies. Believers are in new Jerusalem spiritually both before we physically die, and after. To enter into new Jerusalem spiritually is to enter into the Kingdom of God through the Spirit of Christ that is within us when we have been born again. That's why John sees new Jerusalem coming down from heaven after the first heaven and earth have passed away. New Jerusalem now during this age of time on earth is being spiritually built through the power of the Gospel and Holy Spirit. John sees new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:1-2 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

This is why John sees living souls without physical bodies of flesh during this period of time, symbolized a thousand years. Before they were martyred for their faith they lived and reigned with Christ during their time on earth, symbolized a thousand years. The purpose for giving the Church this time, symbolized a thousand years is that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, the holy city, new Jerusalem would be built through the power of the Gospel and Holy Spirit. This symbolic time will be finished when the last trumpet begins to sound, and Christ shall come again.

Why would you believe God's name must be vindicated? Believing that God's name must be vindicated implies error or guilt. God doesn't have to be proven to be right, reasonable, or justified. Nor does He have to be cleared from accusation, imputation, suspicion or the like.

The new heaven and new earth shall be when the first heaven and earth have passed away. That shall be when Christ comes again and the saints are caught up to meet Him in the air as the fire of God's wrath comes down from heaven to utterly burn up every living thing left alive on this earth. Then the spiritual body of Christ shall come down with Christ, the new Jerusalem, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

It is during this age that we are commanded to obey God. If we fail to turn to Christ in faith and obedience in this age, before we physically die, there shall be no more hope. There will not be another one thousand years given this earth for any people to obtain everlasting life through Christ.