What and when is the rapture part two?

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Disagreement isn't possible. Linguistically it is a fact that the word rapture came from harpazo.

I'm going to disagree with you. In all the Bible translation I've read no translation translates the word harpazo as rapture. The translations of the Bible I've seen so far not saying I've seen or read all translations, translates harpazo as caught away or caught up , seize etc. but not as rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm going to disagree with you.

Then you remain wrong.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin word "rapio" meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin word “rapiemur” is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” when he translated 1 Thess 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead. The rapture then will come after the great tribulation has ended known as "post-trib".

 

[ewq1938]

In all the Bible translation I've read no translation translates the word harpazo as rapture.

The Latin translation uses the Latin word for rapture:

1Thess 4:15 Deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Then you remain wrong.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin word "rapio" meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin word “rapiemur” is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” when he translated 1 Thess 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead. The rapture then will come after the great tribulation has ended known as "post-trib".

People certainly have the right to disagree with me but as I said and will continue to say you're taking harpazo out of context. Paul was speaking about the resurrection not a rapture. I'm not going to take the word harpazo out of that context just because of what you believe or how much you believe me to be wrong.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The Latin translation uses the Latin word for rapture:

1Thess 4:15 Deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

I already know this, but people have been saying this and that is the truth about the scriptures. The pharisees of Jesus day thought Jesus was wrong about the scriptures so much so that they called him the prince of the demons and that he broke the law covenant so was a criminal. Just because someone thinks I'm wrong doesn't concern me because the fact that someone thinks I'm wrong doesn't mean I am wrong. You have shown me nothing from the scriptures that Paul wasn't talking about the resurrection when he was talking to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians. The hope that he gave them was the hope of the resurrection, not a reapture. Also the scriptures in 1Corinthians 15:50; Romans 6:3-5 and 1Corinthians 35,36,44 show us that death comes before the spiritual body. As I said what occurred in the case of Jesus set the pattern. His apostles and others knew Jesus had died. Jesus wasn't restored to heavenly life until after his death and resurrection.

 

[ewq1938]

I already know this

Apparently you don't because you still argue against the idea of the rapture being mentioned in scripture. It's in the Greek manuscripts, and in all the Latin and English translations. Caught up, harpazo, rapiemur all all words that mean rapture.

 

[Marty fox]

Correct! all who live godly will suffer persecution, in all ages! But the trib time is Gods wrath poured out on the earth and on Israel to purge them of unbelievers so the remaining nation will get saved!

Actually the great tribulation is on the church and has been happening for almost 2000 years. The wrath of God is different and it is on the world


The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”

 

[ewq1938]

Actually the great tribulation is on the church and has been happening for almost 2000 years.

Christ spoke of the Great Tribulation as a period that was too long and needed to be shortened. You are going opposite of Christ's words and are making it extremely long.

The Great Tribulation is 42 months long from an earlier 84 months.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Apparently you don't because you still argue against the idea of the rapture being mentioned in scripture. It's in the Greek manuscripts, and in all the Latin and English translations. Caught up, harpazo, rapiemur all all words that mean rapture.

I don't call agreeing with such scriptures as Romans 6:3-5 that show what occurred in the case of Jesus as setting the pattern as arguing, no matter what you or anyone else says about that. Jesus wasn't restored to heavenly life until after his death and resurrection. 1Corinthians 15: 35,36,44 shows us that those who will be in heaven with Jesus must die to get their spiritual immortal and incorruptible body. I'm not going to disagree with what these scriptures show me because you think I'm wrong or arguing. You haven't convinced me that what you're saying is biblical truth is actually the biblical truth. I'm not going to take a word such as harpazo which means caught up or caught away and not rapture out of the context which Paul used it. Meaning the context that the word harpazo was used, was and is, in the context of the resurrection. You can talk about people who translate the word harpazo as rapture, but all that means to me is that those people are ok with taking that word harpazo out of the context which it was written to try and prove a belief or their belief. I've always been against people taking words and scriptures out of context to try and prove their beliefs and I will continue doing so. You want to believe I'm wrong or arguing you go right ahead.

 

[Marty fox]

Christ spoke of the Great Tribulation as a period that was too long and needed to be shortened. You are going opposite of Christ's words and are making it extremely long.

The Great Tribulation is 42 months long from an earlier 84 months.

No they are different the one in revelation 7 is “the great tribulation” which is on the saints

The one in the Olivit discourse is “a great tribulation” which is on Israel there are most than one

 

[ewq1938]

No they are different the one in revelation 7 is “the great tribulation” which is on the saints

The one in the Olivit discourse is “a great tribulation” which is on Israel there are most than one

The Olivet Discourse Great Tribulation is against Christians not Jews:

Who is persecuted in the great Tribulation? Jews or Christians?

The olivet discourse (Matthew):

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

False Christ's are warned about.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you". He was also speaking to his Christian disciples.


Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ( whoso readeth, let him understand: )

"Ye" are Christians.

So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

"Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


And here is the second coming. The gathering of the elect by angels is another way to speak of the rapture and the rapture is only for Christians. Christians are the body of Christ, are the Church of Christ, and are the bride of Christ, targeted by the enemy during the Great Tribulation of Christian persecution.

Again, nothing about Jews in the religion of Judaism at all because they are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.

 

[Truth7t7]

Actually the great tribulation is on the church and has been happening for almost 2000 years. The wrath of God is different and it is on the world


The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”

The great tribulation Is a future 3.5 years, and no it didn't start in 70AD Jerusalem, regarding your preterist interpretations

 

[Zao is life]

All that and one verse could settle it:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

and if you wish I can list all teh OT verses that speak of the tribulation time as a time of wrath on man.

The stars of heaven are a metaphor throughout the Old Testament and in the New Testament.

 

[Marty fox]

The great tribulation Is a future 3.5 years, and no it didn't start in 70AD Jerusalem, regarding your preterist interpretations

I never claimed that it started in 70AD it has nothing to do with that

It is against the church and it started on the day Steven was stoned to death and is still happing today. Revelation 7 shows that it is against the church.

 

[Timtofly]

You are not the first to propose this with this evidence and you won't be the last.

Teh rapture has to occur before the tribulation starts ! Reason? Rev. 6 says the trib is the wrath of God and the Lamb! And Paul in Thess. said we are not appointed to wrath but to be delivered from the wrath to come!

the lake of fire is never called Gods wrath, but teh trib period or the 70th week of Daniel, those seven years are most definitely called the wrath of God!

I would agree with you about Revelation 6 and the 6th Seal. Unless God and the Lamb are actually seen, how do those on earth actually know they are there? If that is not the Second Coming, is there a coming before the Second Coming we do not know about?

Certainly at the Second Coming that is when the rapture happens, not years later.

There has been trouble since the Cross. Not sure why there will not be trouble just prior to the Second Coming.

The problem is that many reject John's chronology for that given in the OD, which can not be as stated, as given in Hebrew thought processes, even though written in Aramaic as some concise chronology.

Hebrews wrote and thought in reverse to Greek linguistic structure. If the order is different in the Gospels from Revelation, would one rely on a recollection of memories, written decades later, or John who was actually writing during the events themselves?

And there is no 7 year period mentioned in the OD nor in Revelation. Nor can it be said from the Hebrew there is ever a 7 year period defined.

 

[Marty fox]

The Olivet Discourse Great Tribulation is against Christians not Jews:

Who is persecuted in the great Tribulation? Jews or Christians?

The olivet discourse (Matthew):

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

False Christ's are warned about.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

These are Christians being delivered up not Jews. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you". He was also speaking to his Christian disciples.


Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ( whoso readeth, let him understand: )

"Ye" are Christians.

So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

"Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect are Christians not Jews per the context of this passage.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.

Nothing about Jews at all because Jews are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


And here is the second coming. The gathering of the elect by angels is another way to speak of the rapture and the rapture is only for Christians. Christians are the body of Christ, are the Church of Christ, and are the bride of Christ, targeted by the enemy during the Great Tribulation of Christian persecution.

Again, nothing about Jews in the religion of Judaism at all because they are not the target of the Antichrist and tribulation.

Yes the beginning of Matthew 24 is about the great tribulation of the church but then it changings to Israel.

Why would the church need to pray that it doesn't happen on the sabbath?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The problem I have with people applying the word rapture to the word harpazo is that by doing so your taking the word hapazo out of the context that Paul was speaking about which is the resurrection. Paul was telling his fellow Christian brothers and sisters to comfort one another with the resurrection hope not in a rapture.
As I've said the term rapture that everyone talks to me about is that it means that Christians while still living and without dying are caught up to heaven. This is completely opposite of the resurrection hope.
The scriptures show us that in order for Christians to get to heaven they have to die. Romans 6:3-5; 1Corinthians 15:35,36,44. What occurred in the case of Jesus set the pattern. His disciples as well as others knew Jesus had died. He wasn't restored to heavenly life until after his death and resurrection.

That is sloppy reading of SCripture!

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is the living and not the dead that are caught up (harpazo)

 

[Timtofly]

All the scriptures speak about is the resurrection not a rapture. Paul was speaking to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians about the resurrection not a rapture. I don't know what others will choose to believe but I'm not going to deny the resurrection Paul spoke about to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians. No other scriptures will contradict the resurrection Paul spoke about.

How do you specifically define a resurrection that takes place in mid-air? Most just call it a rapture. Rapture is not really some weird esoteric narrow definition of some complicated mystical process. Being caught up is being raptured. Should we use the term take off, since that is how birds and plains get into the sky? How about launched? Ascend, take flight? How complicated do you think it will be?

We are not moving to a different reality. We are not moving into alternate universes. We are not even going into a different dimension. We are going to break the laws we currently think govern us, and the spiritual blindness we have to all of creation will be removed.

Paradise is closer than we have been led to believe, but no one is going to comprehend that until the Second Coming. God has allowed there to be a blindness that prohibits us from seeing all of physical creation. Yet we think we know all about a virtual universe that science has created, but that is only virtual as an image placed in our minds.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Actually the great tribulation is on the church and has been happening for almost 2000 years. The wrath of God is different and it is on the world

No for teh tribulation is the wrath of God. If you look at the passages in the minor prophets that deal with this, Matt. Thess. and REv. you see the tribulation is not for the church.

The church suffers tribulation, but that is not THE tribulation of Matt. 24

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Actually the great tribulation is on the church and has been happening for almost 2000 years. The wrath of God is different and it is on the world


The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”

YOu fail to pay attention to a tiny word "THE". The great tribulation is a specific and particular tribulation, not the general tribulation we experience if we are walking rightly with god.