What and when is the rapture part two?

[Ronald Nolette]

The stars of heaven are a metaphor throughout the Old Testament and in the New Testament.

many times yes! IN Rev. 6 it is also!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I would agree with you about Revelation 6 and the 6th Seal. Unless God and the Lamb are actually seen, how do those on earth actually know they are there? If that is not the Second Coming, is there a coming before the Second Coming we do not know about?

Certainly at the Second Coming that is when the rapture happens, not years later.

When the bible does not make conclusions about a what or why of an event- we should not also. YOu are merely making a fairly logical guess that is 0-100% right or wrong.

There has been trouble since the Cross. Not sure why there will not be trouble just prior to the Second Coming.

Simple Anser? Because the bible clearly spells out there will be!

Hebrews wrote and thought in reverse to Greek linguistic structure. If the order is different in the Gospels from Revelation, would one rely on a recollection of memories, written decades later, or John who was actually writing during the events themselves?

And there is no 7 year period mentioned in the OD nor in Revelation. Nor can it be said from the Hebrew there is ever a 7 year period defined.

JOhn was not an eyewitness reporter. He was exiled on Patmos when He wrote revelation under the inspiration of God!

And yes there is a 7 year period in the OT, Revelation speaks of 1/2 the time when the AC rises from the dead.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes the beginning of Matthew 24 is about the great tribulation of the church but then it changings to Israel.

It never changes to Israel.

Why would the church need to pray that it doesn't happen on the sabbath?

Because it's harder to travel on the Sabbath because many things are shut down.

 

[ewq1938]

That is sloppy reading of SCripture!

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is the living and not the dead that are caught up (harpazo)

The dead are not caught up because they come with Christ:

1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[ewq1938]

JOhn was not an eyewitness reporter.

Of course he was. He was taken to see future events. He had paper he was writing in that he brought back with him.

Rev_10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Rev_14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

[Marty fox]

YOu fail to pay attention to a tiny word "THE". The great tribulation is a specific and particular tribulation, not the general tribulation we experience if we are walking rightly with god.

No I did I wrote the words “the”. There is one “the great tribulation” but many tribulations

 

[Marty fox]

No for teh tribulation is the wrath of God. If you look at the passages in the minor prophets that deal with this, Matt. Thess. and REv. you see the tribulation is not for the church.

The church suffers tribulation, but that is not THE tribulation of Matt. 24

There are two tribulations in Matthew 24 the beginning is on the church and the second is on Israel. The proof is the warning about the sabbath why would the church have to worry about that?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

That is sloppy reading of SCripture!

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is the living and not the dead that are caught up (harpazo)

I'm not going to take 1Thessalonians 4:16, 17 or 1Corinthians chapter 15 out of context of the resurrection because that's what Paul is speaking about in those scriptures.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The dead are not caught up because they come with Christ:

1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Well if you are a post tribber you think that. But the bible teaches different!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Of course he was. He was taken to see future events. He had paper he was writing in that he brought back with him.

Rev_10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Rev_14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

I thought you were referring to other things. LIke preterism. My bad.

 

[Timtofly]

After the resurrection is more accurate than "at". It's important that everyone knows the resurrection happens first, and the rapture next.

"the dead in Christ rise first" which is linguistically related to "the first resurrection". Both are speaking of the same event.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


"Rise first" is literally the same as "first resurrection" found here:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

first/G4413 resurrection/G386 is "protos anastasis"
Rise/G450 first/G4412 is "anistemi proton"

Proton and protos are related words that both mean "first". Proton is the neuter of the word protos. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

anastasis was created from it's root word, anistemi. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

There are not two stages of the first resurrection ie: those who shall rise first. All the dead in Christ will rise at the same exact time. Revelation 20 simply focuses on one group like if there were a million people in a dark room and you shined a flashlight at a group of around a thousand. The others are still there. The light just isn't being shown at them at that time.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

All the dead in Christ will resurrect at the same time. Revelation 20 is only shining a light one one specific group but everyone is actually resurrecting at the same time the beheaded saints are.

Most have the wrong idea about the dead in Christ. The dead in Christ are those in Adam's flesh and blood. So all those alive are resurrected out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and raptured into the firmament. Those currently in Paradise already have a permanent incorruptible physical body. They come and meet us in one place in the firmament. Then all are glorified as one whole body of redeemed believers.

There is no single one time resurrection for all humanity. The Cross was the change of the soul hanging out in a part of sheol, the grave, called Abraham's bosom, into a physical body in Paradise. The OT redeemed were waiting for that last day resurrection, the Cross. Paul is explaining the dead have been raised. That is the hope of those on earth.

"For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:"

This is not written in a future tense that will happen. Nor in a past tense. It is present indicative middle/passive. It is an ongoing action. It started at the Cross with the OT redeemed. It continues to this day.

Paul does start out the chapter contrasting the living from those physically dead.

However in the middle of the chapter Paul switches to the difference between Adam's flesh and blood, and those bodies already resurrected. So when we get to verse 52, the "dead" no longer describes all those already resurrected, but those alive on earth in Adam's flesh and blood:

"The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Paul is contrasting those alive on earth with those alive in Paradise.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The "we" are those alive on the earth. Paul was a "we", but Paul is now in Paradise. The living will be changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. The dead in this verse are not the living in Paradise, but those in Adam's dead flesh on earth. It is only Adam's flesh not allowed in Paradise, not a physical body. The change is into a physical body that is permanent, incorruptible, and still tangible flesh. The body is no longer Adam's flesh and blood. Paul was contrasting two different physical bodies.

Paul was declaring that not all would die, but some would have to be resurrected while still alive. Resurrection being removed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into a permanent incorruptible physical body.

That is the 1 Corinthians 15 version.

In 1 Thessalonians 4, we cannot contradict 1 Corinthians 15.

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

We see right there, those living in Paradise will come with Jesus, and it does not say bodiless souls. Sleep in Jesus is another form of dead in Christ. It is referring to those already there, not their physical condition. Paul does not have to repeat the whole contrast between the earthy and heavenly. Paul simply states they come with Christ. Their physical condition already explained in 1 Corinthians 15. Those in Thessaloniki did not need that explained.

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

They are already there. Paul just said they come with Christ from Paradise. When Paul wrote that not even he could rise first if the Second Coming happened. Is this a point that there is a resurrection, or that there has been a constant ongoing resurrection? If Christ brings them with Him, that does not negate their resurrection as always being first. They would have to rise first in order for Christ to bring them with him.

Some will say, Paul is just meaning their souls is what Jesus is bringing, but that would contradict 1 Corinthians 15. Claiming this is not a future resurrection is not contradicting the text and context, it is contradicting a notion that was at one time wrongly given as an interpretation.

If any one maintains this erroneous interpretation even if a reasonable one, has to go against the text, the context, and other Scripture. The colon is making this a separate thought that is connected with the other thought. This phrase is not supposed to direct the whole thought. This phrase compliments the thought. Saying the dead in Christ shall rise first is true on it's own merit even when separated from the other thought.

Paul was reiterating a fact. Paul was not necessarily putting that fact in a chronological setting. This is a true fact, because after Paul declared it as future, it was already a present reality. He did not have to state it as an ongoing reality. We were not supposed to connect it with the other thought, but to see it as a compliment. Not really a contrast, because he already stated:

"we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

At no point in time could this happen. There would only be one future rapture event, but when it happens it would have never prevented those already dead to be resurrected.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

"Then" is not relying on a resurrection of the dead. The rapture is totally relying on the Second Coming event itself. It can only happen one time, and should never be separated from the Second Coming itself.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm not going to take 1Thessalonians 4:16, 17 or 1Corinthians chapter 15 out of context of the resurrection because that's what Paul is speaking about in those scriptures.

Are you so afraid to leave your JW indoctrination and look at Gods word on Gods Term and not that man made organizations terms?

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Up to verse 16, I agree 100% with you it is about the dead. Then by that word "then" Paul adds another part of this event!


A) TRHEN THOSE THAT ARE STILL ALIOVE AND REMAIN (ON EARTH) THEY (THE LIVING) SHALOL BE CAUGHT UP

B) TO0 MEET THEM! WHO ARE THEM??? THE DEAD INCHRIST WHO WERE BROUGHT UP FIRST!

C'mon Barney ! do I give you more credit for being smarter than you actually are????????????????????????????

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Most have the wrong idea about the dead in Christ. The dead in Christ are those in Adam's flesh and blood. So all those alive are resurrected out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and raptured into the firmament. Those currently in Paradise already have a permanent incorruptible physical body. They come and meet us in one place in the firmament. Then all are glorified as one whole body of redeemed believers.

There is no single one time resurrection for all humanity. The Cross was the change of the soul hanging out in a part of sheol, the grave, called Abraham's bosom, into a physical body in Paradise. The OT redeemed were waiting for that last day resurrection, the Cross. Paul is explaining the dead have been raised. That is the hope of those on earth.

"For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:"

This is not written in a future tense that will happen. Nor in a past tense. It is present indicative middle/passive. It is an ongoing action. It started at the Cross with the OT redeemed. It continues to this day.

Paul does start out the chapter contrasting the living from those physically dead.

However in the middle of the chapter Paul switches to the difference between Adam's flesh and blood, and those bodies already resurrected. So when we get to verse 52, the "dead" no longer describes all those already resurrected, but those alive on earth in Adam's flesh and blood:

"The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Paul is contrasting those alive on earth with those alive in Paradise.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The "we" are those alive on the earth. Paul was a "we", but Paul is now in Paradise. The living will be changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. The dead in this verse are not the living in Paradise, but those in Adam's dead flesh on earth. It is only Adam's flesh not allowed in Paradise, not a physical body. The change is into a physical body that is permanent, incorruptible, and still tangible flesh. The body is no longer Adam's flesh and blood. Paul was contrasting two different physical bodies.

Paul was declaring that not all would die, but some would have to be resurrected while still alive. Resurrection being removed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into a permanent incorruptible physical body.

That is the 1 Corinthians 15 version.

In 1 Thessalonians 4, we cannot contradict 1 Corinthians 15.

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

We see right there, those living in Paradise will come with Jesus, and it does not say bodiless souls. Sleep in Jesus is another form of dead in Christ. It is referring to those already there, not their physical condition. Paul does not have to repeat the whole contrast between the earthy and heavenly. Paul simply states they come with Christ. Their physical condition already explained in 1 Corinthians 15. Those in Thessaloniki did not need that explained.

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

They are already there. Paul just said they come with Christ from Paradise. When Paul wrote that not even he could rise first if the Second Coming happened. Is this a point that there is a resurrection, or that there has been a constant ongoing resurrection? If Christ brings them with Him, that does not negate their resurrection as always being first. They would have to rise first in order for Christ to bring them with him.

Some will say, Paul is just meaning their souls is what Jesus is bringing, but that would contradict 1 Corinthians 15. Claiming this is not a future resurrection is not contradicting the text and context, it is contradicting a notion that was at one time wrongly given as an interpretation.

If any one maintains this erroneous interpretation even if a reasonable one, has to go against the text, the context, and other Scripture. The colon is making this a separate thought that is connected with the other thought. This phrase is not supposed to direct the whole thought. This phrase compliments the thought. Saying the dead in Christ shall rise first is true on it's own merit even when separated from the other thought.

Paul was reiterating a fact. Paul was not necessarily putting that fact in a chronological setting. This is a true fact, because after Paul declared it as future, it was already a present reality. He did not have to state it as an ongoing reality. We were not supposed to connect it with the other thought, but to see it as a compliment. Not really a contrast, because he already stated:

"we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

At no point in time could this happen. There would only be one future rapture event, but when it happens it would have never prevented those already dead to be resurrected.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

"Then" is not relying on a resurrection of the dead. The rapture is totally relying on the Second Coming event itself. It can only happen one time, and should never be separated from the Second Coming itself.

So much wrong in such a little space! Are you trying to write your own bible? Cuz this isn't Gods Inspirited Word, but opinions allegorized from what God wrote and then reinterpreted by some man!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If any one maintains this erroneous interpretation even if a reasonable one, has to go against the text, the context, and other Scripture. The colon is making this a separate thought that is connected with the other thought. This phrase is not supposed to direct the whole thought. This phrase compliments the thought. Saying the dead in Christ shall rise first is true on it's own merit even when separated from the other thought.

Paul was reiterating a fact. Paul was not necessarily putting that fact in a chronological setting. This is a true fact, because after Paul declared it as future, it was already a present reality. He did not have to state it as an ongoing reality. We were not supposed to connect it with the other thought, but to see it as a compliment. Not really a contrast, because he already stated:

I will rip this apart from th erest of the mess!

Paul is talking about teh resurrection of the body as is promised. Believers souls and spirits are not in paradise but in heaven now!

So the Thessalonians passage is talking about sequential events for the rapture:

1. Jesus descends from heaven
2. With a shout
3. With a voice of the archangel (Michael)
4. With the trump of God (the last trump of 1 Cor. 15 and the last trump of th efeast of trump is a symbol of)
5. First the dead in Christ will rise (the bodies are yanked out of their graves)
6. THEN which connotes a second event after the first-We which are still on earth alive will be snatched up!
7. We meet th eLord in the 1 st heaven (the atmosphere)
8. And we will be with the Lord!

Just like God Inspired it as written!

 

[Marty fox]

It never changes to Israel.



Because it's harder to travel on the Sabbath because many things are shut down.

Or the gates of the old city of Jerusalem in the first century would of been locked

 

[ewq1938]

Or the gates of the old city of Jerusalem in the first century would of been locked

He didn't mention the city. Most people would not be in Jerusalem but the surrounding areas of Israel.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Are you so afraid to leave your JW indoctrination and look at Gods word on Gods Term and not that man made organizations terms?

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Up to verse 16, I agree 100% with you it is about the dead. Then by that word "then" Paul adds another part of this event!


A) TRHEN THOSE THAT ARE STILL ALIOVE AND REMAIN (ON EARTH) THEY (THE LIVING) SHALOL BE CAUGHT UP

B) TO0 MEET THEM! WHO ARE THEM??? THE DEAD INCHRIST WHO WERE BROUGHT UP FIRST!

C'mon Barney ! do I give you more credit for being smarter than you actually are????????????????????????????

I will not take 1Thessalonians 4:16,17 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15 out of the context of the resurrection.
You certainly have the right to disagree with me concerning the scriptures but I disagree with you because I don't think anyone should take scripture out of context, which I honestly believe you're doing. I've always believed you shouldn't take scripture out of context to try to prove a belief. JW's didn't teach me that, so you're blaming JW's for something they had nothing to do with. Long before I knew who JW's we're I have believed that Paul when speaking to the Thessalonians in 1Thessalonians 4:16,17 and the Corinthians in 1Corinthians chapter 15 that Paul was talking about the resurrection and that's the context I'm going to keep it in.
It just seems to me you can't stand someone disagreeing with you concerning the scriptures.

 

[Marty fox]

He didn't mention the city. Most people would not be in Jerusalem but the surrounding areas of Israel.

Yet almost 1.2 million people died in the city

 

[ewq1938]

Yet almost 1.2 million people died in the city

Millions of people die in large cities all around the world. Back to the topic, Christians will have difficulty traveling if the AoD starts havoc on a Sabbath. They really shouldn't be anywhere near the area anyways because they should be able to see the signs that point to the Great Tribulation starting.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Millions of people die in large cities all around the world. Back to the topic, Christians will have difficulty traveling if the AoD starts havoc on a Sabbath. They really shouldn't be anywhere near the area anyways because they should be able to see the signs that point to the Great Tribulation starting.

Since Jesus said that his second presence will be as the days of Noah, I don't think the majority of the people are going to believe they are actually living in the second presence of Jesus Christ until Armageddon begins. The people of Noah's day didn't believe anything he said was true until the flood began, then they believed but it was too late for them. So I don't think people will believe they're living in the second presence of Jesus Christ until Armageddon begins, then they'll believe, but it will be too late. So I don't think people will believe that what they're going through at that time is the great tribulation . The only people I think who will know they're living in the second presence of Jesus Christ will those who actually have faith in the truth about God and his Only Begotten Son.