What Are we Getting Saved From?

[Aunty Jane]

So in John 4:24, where Jesus says, "God is a spirit", where 'spirit' is translated from the Greek word pneuma, meaning "a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze", does that mean that God is not a conscious entity?

There are a number of meanings to the word translated "spirit"....context indicates which.
God is not a breath of wind, but he is invisible and capable of making his presence felt in a very real way....like the way the wind drives a storm or a tornado.....you see the effects of the wind, but not the wind itself.

Yes they are! The word is always translated as sepulchre, grave or tomb.

The word for "tombs" is "taphos" from "thapto", (to bury). But the place from which Jesus calls for the dead is "mne·meiʹon" having the meaning of "any visible object for preserving or recalling the memory of any person or thing". It represents those who are in God's memory...the safest place a human can be.

The body of the thief on the cross next to Jesus may have been dumped in Gehenna, but Jesus told him that he would be in paradise one day (Luke 23:43). If Joseph of Arimathaea hadn't asked for Jesus' body then maybe Jesus' body would have also been thrown into Gehenna!

You miss the point of the symbolism.....literal "gehenna" was merely a rubbish dump but the symbolic "Gehenna" is a place from which no one is resurrected. Those consigned to Gehenna will never live again. It is the same as the "lake of fire" in Revelation.

Joseph of Arimathea's generosity fulfilled the prophecy that the Messiah would be buried “with the rich.” (Isaiah 53:5, 8-9)

These verses sounds like God was planning things before the creation of the world - Ephesians 1:4 (WEB):

(4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love;

2 Timothy 1:9-10 (KJV):

(9) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
(10) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

All mean before 'the founding of the human race' which came after the fall....God gave his prophesy in Genesis 3:15 before Adam and his wife bore children....before they sinned, no contingency plan was implemented. Adam's children were all born in sin and that is who Jesus came to save.

And yet God also had plans for Jeremiah before he was born - Jeremiah 1:5 (WEB):

(5) “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Like John the Baptist, Jeremiah had a role to play in God's purpose. Very few in the scriptures had their task assigned before birth.

But he had planned it before the creation began - 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 (WEB):

(7) But we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom that has been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds for our glory,
(8) which none of the rulers of this world has known. For had they known it, they wouldn’t have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Peter 1:20 (KJV):
(20) Who [Jesus] verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Yes, before the world of mankind came into existence....

I'll just point out that the 144,000 are not in heaven. They're only mentioned in two places - Revelation 7 and 14. In chapter 7 they are definitely on the earth - Revelation 7:3 (WEB):

(3) saying, “Don’t harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!”

All of the 144,000 have spent their lives on earth.....but they will not remain here.....Jesus went to "prepare a place" for them "in his Father's House"...remember? Where did Jesus go to do that?

 

[Aunty Jane]

and the 144,000 were all Jewish, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel. In chapter 14 they are again on the earth, Revelation 14:1 (WEB):

(1) I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a number, one hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

Read it again....where is Mt Zion?
Hebrews 12:22-23...
"But you have come to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the assembly 23 and congregation of the firstborn, who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous, who have been made perfect". (NET)
This is in heaven, not on earth. "Heavenly Jerusalem" is for those who have been "enrolled in the heavens".

It says they are all men - there are no women among the 144,000 (Revelation 14:4)! They are the firstfruits from among men, i.e. having been sealed (Revelation 7:3) before the Great Tribulation and the start of the Millenial Age, they are the first to have gained eternal human life. Revelation 14:4 (WEB):

(4) These are those who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

Again this is symbolic language....because the ones who are taken to heaven have no gender or nationality.
Galatians 3:26...
"For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise."

Perhaps it's time to stop discussing this now? (Before someone says: .)

Any who were heading for the hills have already left the building....This thread is for Bible students.

That should be 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 .

Typo....corrected, thank you.

I believe the Scriptures teach that the Church will be resurrected or raptured before the Great Tribulation.

Isaiah 26:20-21 (WEB):
(20) Come, my people, enter into your rooms, and shut your doors behind you. Hide yourself for a little moment, until the indignation is past.
(21) For, behold, Yahweh comes out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. The earth also will disclose her blood, and will no longer cover her slain.

Indeed...."the church" will be with Christ before the tribulation leads to Armageddon.....but I am not sure that "raptured" is a word used in the scriptures....(1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

According to Paul there is a timeframe for when the "first resurrection" begins....
1 Thessalonians 2:13-18...
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words."

The "coming of the Lord" is his presence (parousia) when he assumes the role of King over his disciples, but not yet over the world.
Jesus gave his disciples a "sign" so that they would know when his "presence" began.....this indicates that it is not an obvious event to humans. (Matthew 24:3-14)
His "presence" would be indicated by a number of important and life changing events among mankind.....unprecedented warfare....major earthquakes...serious food shortages.....disease.....an increase in lawlessness, and the love of the greater number growing cold.
For Jehovah's Witnesses, this period began in 1914 with the outbreak of the war that changed the world forever...World War 1. After that was the Spanish Flu epidemic which claimed more lives than the war did. Major earthquakes have been occurring in various parts of the world and the "lawlessness" we see is based on pure selfishness and man's total disregard for their fellow man....and the sanctity of human life.
Jesus said we had to get to the point where the days of Noah are a close reflection of the times we are living in. (Matthew 24:37-39)
How much worse does it have to get?

I am exhausted now.....

 

[bbyrd009]

But he had planned it before the creation began

ya gl with that ok

 

[bbyrd009]

Any who were heading for the hills have already left the building....This thread is for Bible students

pls tell me you are not serious

 

[bbyrd009]

Probably because it was God's purpose from before the world existed to call many humans with a promise of sharing in Jesus' inheritance, and a promise of a heavenly home

fwiw “12” has an allegorical meaning, i think? and so does 1000 prolly

There was no pre-determination as to who would do anything "before the world existed"...the "world" was the "kosmos"...the world of humankind...it has nothing to do with God planning things at the creation of the planet.

God had to

did you really just say “God had to?”

 

[bbyrd009]

Perhaps it's time to stop discussing this now? (Before someone says: .)

when you get your fill of the eschatologists, it is possible to read that in the context of “the revelation of Christ” fwiw

 

[bbyrd009]

Any who were heading for the hills have already left the building....This thread is for Bible students.

rolleyes

or maybe you are just so overbearing that everyone has run eh

 

[face2face]

Read it again....where is Mt Zion?
Hebrews 12:22-23...
"But you have come to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the assembly 23 and congregation of the firstborn, who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous, who have been made perfect". (NET)
This is in heaven, not on earth. "Heavenly Jerusalem" is for those who have been "enrolled in the heavens".

Every single prophecy in the Bible states a literal return of Christ to the earth and the establishment of God's Kingdom on Earth. The fanciful notion of a literal 144,000 ruling with Christ from Heaven is nowhere taught. His Apostles however will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel in the Millennium age. Matthew 19:28

Note "throne of Glory"....not the throne he currently sits on for this is NOT David's throne which God is yet to give to His Son on Earth. Luke 1:32

 

[Aunty Jane]

rolleyes

You mean no one rolls eyes at you??? What about a facepalm then?

I would like to know how many people even understand your posts most of the time?
No one said you have to agree with anything I say, but at least provide some substance to the discussion....instead of your usual whining.

or maybe you are just so overbearing that everyone has run eh

Was someone with a big stick forcing you to involve yourself with this thread?

Now I have to ask...are you serious?
Are you just another 'Lone Ranger' yelling at no one?
Beg to differ? Fine, that's what debates are all about.....so when do you start debating?

No offense mate, but you can be a bit overbearing yourself, but in the totally opposite direction....."maybe"..."sorta"..."I guess"....doesn't provide answers to anything....when you settle on what is truth, just let us know.....OK? Then maybe we can actually discuss and debate biblical subjects....

When you are lost yourself, how can you give others direction, or provide anything useful to the subject?

 

[face2face]

You mean no one rolls eyes at you??? What about a facepalm then?

I would like to know how many people even understand your posts most of the time?
No one said you have to agree with anything I say, but at least provide some substance to the discussion....instead of your usual whining.

Was someone with a big stick forcing you to involve yourself with this thread?

Now I have to ask...are you serious?
Are you just another 'Lone Ranger' yelling at no one?
Beg to differ? Fine, that's what debates are all about.....so when do you start debating?

No offense mate, but you can be a bit overbearing yourself, but in the totally opposite direction....."maybe"..."sorta"..."I guess"....doesn't provide answers to anything....when you settle on what is truth, just let us know.....OK? Then maybe we can actually discuss and debate biblical subjects....

When you are lost yourself, how can you give others direction, or provide anything useful to the subject?

Still using that old tactic Jane! How many Lone Rangers do you come across in your line of work? Do you recall our conversation on Ezekiel 28? You never once provided a coherent interpretation to that text, and yet even its profound truthfulness wasn't enough to change your mind! What that means to me, is if its not the Word according to the JW's, there is no light in them!

You're wasting your time trying to convince Christians of their error if you are not willing to look at your own!

There's a word for that!

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

Still using that old tactic Jane! How many Lone Rangers do you come across in your line of work?

A few actually, usually identified by the fact that there is no brotherhood who agrees with what they choose to believe....a congregation of one is hardly what Christianity is all about.

Do you recall our conversation on Ezekiel 28? You never once provided a coherent interpretation to that text, and yet even its profound truthfulness wasn't enough to change your mind!

you really crack me up....no one can provide a "coherent interpretation" of anything you present, unless it agrees with yours....so why bother? I gave you my beliefs on that subject, but apparently the "profound truthfulness" of what you offered failed to agree with what the scriptures say.....who says you must be right?

What that means to me, is if its not the Word according to the JW's, there is no light in them!

You're wasting your time trying to convince Christians of their error if you are not willing to look at your own!

There's a word for that!

Yes, and that is really funny coming from you

.....who are your brotherhood again??? Who else believes what you do?
Who is there to correct you?

If its not the word according to F2F, there is no light in anyone you are trying to convince either. Who is wasting their time?

Pot...meet kettle.

Who convinced you that what you believe is true? Do you have a direct line to God perhaps?.....or is this all your own work?

 

[face2face]

A few actually, usually identified by the fact that there is no brotherhood who agrees with what they choose to believe....a congregation of one is hardly what Christianity is all about.

I have found it amusing how you play this favorite song of yours and for the record I have a community just felt these chats are better coming from those who have actually tested the text for themselves and not been instructed to teach by wrote.

you really crack me up....no one can provide a "coherent interpretation" of anything you present, unless it agrees with yours....so why bother? I gave you my beliefs on that subject, but apparently the "profound truthfulness" of what you offered failed to agree with what the scriptures say.....who says you must be right?

While you roll around laughing the evidence is there for all to see...you had nothing to offer on Ezekiel 28, you know it and those who wish to read the thread will see clearly that all you had was some fanciful notion about a fallen angel....BTW I noticed you said in an earlier post that there is no sin in heaven which I guess is either a backflip or a contradiction on your part....who knows!!

Yes, and that is really funny coming from you

.....who are your brotherhood again??? Who else believes what you do?
Who is there to correct you?

If its not the word according to F2F, there is no light in anyone you are trying to convince either. Who is wasting their time?

Pot...meet kettle.

Who convinced you that what you believe is true? Do you have a direct line to God perhaps?.....or is this all your own work?

All you have is your emojis and I guess we will have to endure them a while longer!

Back to the thread!

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have a community just felt these chats are better coming from those who have actually tested the text for themselves and not been instructed to teach by wrote.

Please identify your "community" so that I can check them out for myself.....got a website? Anything that would identify what you collectively believe? Do you agree with them unreservedly? Is your "community" international in scope? Or just local?
Please tell us about them...I am all ears.

While you roll around laughing the evidence is there for all to see...you had nothing to offer on Ezekiel 28, you know it and those who wish to read the thread will see clearly that all you had was some fanciful notion about a fallen angel....

If you do not wish to acknowledge what the scriptures clearly say about the origins of the devil.....that is your problem, not mine.

BTW I noticed you said in an earlier post that there is no sin in heaven which I guess is either a backflip or a contradiction on your part....who knows!!

No, I said that "there are no sinners in heaven". Please pay attention....the devil and his hordes have been evicted and are now confined to the earth.
Revelation 12:7-12....
"And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they did not prevail, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,

“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers and sisters has been thrown down, the one who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you with great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.” (NASB)

There it is.....the time when Christ received his authority as King (foretold in Daniel 7:13-14) is when Michael kicked satan and his angels out of heaven down to the earth. This created joy in heaven to be rid of those rebels, but it meant "woe" for the earth as we are now experiencing.

You will of course have a different interpretation of that, but again that is your problem. It says what it says.

All you have is your emojis and I guess we will have to endure them a while longer!

I love my emojis

whatsamatta.....no sense of humor?

 

[keithr]

ya gl with that ok

I haven't got a clue what you are trying to say. Please can you translate that into English.

 

[face2face]

No, I said that "there are no sinners in heaven".

So your fallen angel sinned on earth?...interesting belief - not cast down you say? I think you should pay attention...or be more mindful of what you are saying.

I'm guessing you believe in dragons as well?

If you ever want to truly understand Revelation 12 you know where to find me.

Also, if angels could sin which they cant...but if they could it would mean your reward is tainted! Imagine Jane living a life trying to resist sin only to find she has to as a divine being...now that's funny!

F2F.

 

[bbyrd009]

When you are lost yourself, how can you give others direction, or provide anything useful to the subject?

meh, you never know what someone else might hear aj. And as i said, you seemed earnest, and i thought it might be possible to present you an alternate perspective to the knowing everything, since imo falling off that cliff is no fun. best of luck to you ok

 

[bbyrd009]

I haven't got a clue what you are trying to say. Please can you translate that into English.

oh, not important really…”good luck”

 

[Aunty Jane]

So your fallen angel sinned on earth?...interesting belief - not cast down you say? I think you should pay attention...or be more mindful of what you are saying.

I'm guessing you believe in dragons as well?

If you ever want to truly understand Revelation 12 you know where to find me.

Also, if angels could sin which they cant...but if they could it would mean your reward is tainted! Imagine Jane living a life trying to resist sin only to find she has to as a divine being...now that's funny!

F2F.

Unbelievable!
The scripture in Revelation is plainly stated...no ambiguity or interpretation required. It says what it says, in direct contrast to what you might want to believe.

The dragon of course, is not literal but symbolic, but perhaps you need to read scripture as it is written.
I believe it is you and whoever it is that provides your understanding of scripture that needs to pay attention.....please identify your “community”....or can’t you?
Let’s examine the basis for their beliefs.

Satan did commit his sin on earth because he was in the garden as an appointed guardian angel (cherub) when he tempted the woman. He was not however denied access to heaven at that stage as the account about Job shows he was brazenly taking his place among the angels who appeared before Jehovah. He was given relatively free access to both humans and his fellow angels, to test them. God can then see who will remain faithful, and who will find reasons not to be. Job’s trials were not for recorded for no reason.

The “angels who sinned” are identified in 2 Peter 2:4...
“Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.”

Free willed beings can sin.....abusing free will is what got us into this mess.....satan first, and then the humans....so seeing first hand what such abuse leads to, is the object lesson we are all living.....humans as well as angels are seeing first hand why disobedience to God never leads to a good outcome. Once the lesson is complete, God will take obedient ones back to the conditions we started with......giving the humans everlasting life in paradise on earth as he first intended, with the gift of free will preserved.
Angels too will see what happened to those who followed satan into rebellion.....none will ever want to repeat the exercise. It guarantees that no rebel will ever be able to derail God’s purpose or challenge his Sovereignty, again.

Satan and his angels are going to end up in “the lake of fire” (where all rebels will finish their existence).....so please let me know when you take your fingers out of your ears....OK? You have nothing of interest to contribute to this thread....your beliefs are so outside of scripture as to make them ridiculous to any serious Bible student.

 

[face2face]

Unbelievable!
The scripture in Revelation is plainly stated...no ambiguity or interpretation required. It says what it says, in direct contrast to what you might want to believe.

The dragon of course, is not literal but symbolic, but perhaps you need to read scripture as it is written.

 

[Aunty Jane]

meh, you never know what someone else might hear aj.

And as i said, you seemed earnest, and i thought it might be possible to present you an alternate perspective to the knowing everything, since imo falling off that cliff is no fun. best of luck to you ok

What “alternative perspective” did you present?
Wild guesses as to what might be the meaning of scripture? Seriously?
I would rather be on top of the cliff than trying to climb it and constantly losing my footing as the earth moves under my feet.
Faith is not something like quicksand....it has to be rock solid. (Hebrews 11:1)
How long can you survive in the quicksand of doubt?.....(James 1:5-8; Matthew 7:24-27)