What Are we Getting Saved From?

[bbyrd009]

If they were not to expect strong opposition involving false accusations and persecution

hopefully you see that the any accusations would first have to be established as false, right

didnt this start with “maybe Adam and Eve didnt really get cursed at all” or something like that?
Not sure how we got here from there tbh

 

[bbyrd009]

When you understand that after their creation and the very simple instructions given, the humans were told that death would only come to them if they disobeyed their God.....so death was not inevitable nor was it natural. It was a consequence/penalty of their own choices. Each one choosing selfishly. So everything God did after they rebelled and refused to obey his commands, was a reaction/response to that choice.

ok you do get that that is a representation of the first two humans ever, and they didnt like write any of this down, there were no eyewitnesses, etc, right? Adamu meant “human” in the earlier Babylonian language, etc, i mean could you possibly be reading too literally there?

Bc you seem to be doing a lot of reducing to literal application with what appears to be a high degree of confidence, wouldnt you say? Im not saying that it’s necessarily bad to entertain them as possibilities, but you really have no way of determining whether “so death was not inevitable nor was it natural,” see? How do you prove that? So dont get me wrong believing that? fine. Stating it as an indisputable fact? I hope you allow some room for other possibilities?

 

[Aunty Jane]

You were going along well Jane until you dealt with the Serpent which God had made! Just a cunning animal able to voice the carnal mind. We have long established Ezekiel 28 has nothing at all to do with a fallen angel. Actually I cant believe you can teach this after being exposed to the true interpretation.

King of Tyre or a Supernatural Creature of Darkness

I will followup with the truth concerning the serpent animal.

Imagine the consequences to your theology if you get Genesis 2&3 wrong? So detrimental.

F2F

Ah, the lone ranger returns to put everything to right...and to strike down the evil Aunty Jane who dares to believe what he does not...!

.....he alone knows what no one else does....apparently. But wait! Where is Tonto?
The Lone Ranger without Tonto is......the Lonely Ranger...a sad and sorry figure with no one to back him up......pity.
He sounds so confident.

What if you have it wrong, LR...what then? How do you back up what is not truth with more unthruth?

How detrimental....!

You obviously have a direct line to God.....like thousands of other people who claim to know what the Bible teaches but with whom no one else agrees. Does God work like that?

I don't think so.....a 'congregation' of Christians has to have more than one member....ya know....?

 

[Aunty Jane]

hopefully you see that the any accusations would first have to be established as false, right

Taking Jesus and his disciples as examples....who was it that persecuted them? Wasn't it their own people, those attached to the mainstream belief system taught by their leaders as truth, but proven by Jesus to be out of line with the scriptures they claimed to follow. He gave them examples and for the majority, it fell on deaf ears....but why? A remnant was prophesied to respond to the truth, and only a remnant of natural Jews did.

didnt this start with “maybe Adam and Eve didnt really get cursed at all” or something like that?
Not sure how we got here from there tbh

Why do you want to put a different scenario on what has already been established as Bible truth? If Adam and his wife were not held accountable for what they did, the human race would be doomed with no way to extract themselves from the endless cycle of sin and death that our first parents plunged us into..... If God had not sent his son into the world to redeem Adam's children, his death, and all the blood sacrifices in Israel make absolutely no sense.

On what basis do you even suggest such a thing?

 

[face2face]

Ah, the lone ranger returns to put everything to right...and to strike down the evil Aunty Jane who dares to believe what he does not...!

.....he alone knows what no one else does....apparently. But wait! Where is Tonto?
The Lone Ranger without Tonto is......the Lonely Ranger...a sad and sorry figure with no one to back him up......pity.
He sounds so confident.

What if you have it wrong, LR...what then? How do you back up what is not truth with more unthruth?

How detrimental....!

You obviously have a direct line to God.....like thousands of other people who claim to know what the Bible teaches but with whom no one else agrees. Does God work like that?

I don't think so.....a 'congregation' of Christians has to have more than one member....ya know....?

Mockery Jane? Really? you stoop so low!
It's about making you accountable and correcting any and all fairy tales after all we are about truth yeah?
F2F

 

[face2face]

The serpent "was more subtil than any beast of the field which Yahweh Elohim had made"

A few issues for Jane to work out - where is the story of the fallen angel in Genesis 1-3 let alone the entire book? It states clearly the serpent was made along side the beasts of the field!

How was God going to test His Children if they were never introduced to the carnal mind?

What options was available to Him?

1. An obedient angel in disguise?
2. A beast which is given voice?
3. A rogue angel - rebellious with whom God knew existed but failed to tell the first pair of his trickery?

In reality the serpent was shrewder than all other "beasts of the field."..even Jesus used it as an example for his disciples to follow ironically enough! Matthew 10:16

But nowhere in the Bible do we have a story about a rebellious angel pretending to be a serpent.

What does the Serpent represent is more the question.

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

ok you do get that that is a representation of the first two humans ever, and they didnt like write any of this down, there were no eyewitnesses, etc, right? Adamu meant “human” in the earlier Babylonian language, etc, i mean could you possibly be reading too literally there?

Do you not take into account how Moses came by this information? The events he wrote about in the beginning, happened about 2,500 years before he wrote Genesis. How did he know?

The first humans did not speak the earlier Babylonian language...they spoke pure Hebrew.....the language of Noah and all who came before him. Language was only confused after the first rebel in Noah's family (post flood) decided to go against God's command to spread out in the earth. Babylon was the city Nimrod built, and when he was forced to go elsewhere he took all his false religious ideas with him. There is a common thread running through all of false religion and it can all be traced back to Babylon....multiple gods, immortal souls, heavenly bliss for the good, or punishment in hellfire for the wicked. They all feature in one form or another.

Bc you seem to be doing a lot of reducing to literal application with what appears to be a high degree of confidence, wouldnt you say? Im not saying that it’s necessarily bad to entertain them as possibilities, but you really have no way of determining whether “so death was not inevitable nor was it natural,” see? How do you prove that? So dont get me wrong believing that? fine. Stating it as an indisputable fact? I hope you allow some room for other possibilities?

Reading the scriptures as they were written allows you to make deductions based on what other scripture tells us. The Bible is one book with one author....if you believe that it is God's word (as I do) there is no room to believe otherwise. That is what "faith" is all about, and as the Bible says... "...faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see. 2 For by it the people of old received God’s commendation". (Hebrews 11:1-2)
So what makes the difference between someone who is confident about what they believe, and one who is constantly blown about by the winds of other people's ideas? What do you think? Which would God prefer that we had? (James 1:5-8)

There was no mention to Adam about death being a natural consequence of life, or going somewhere else in invisible form when you died. Death was mentioned only once, and that was as a penalty for disobedience. The result of death is stated clearly to Adam, which was....that he would go back to the dust from which he was created. (Genesis 3:19)

The first murderer was produced within one generation, such was the power of sin.

Were humankind designed to die? If death was a natural part of life, then we would respond like the majority of animals do.....they are programmed for death because their lives were intended to be finite.....ours was not. How many times is "eternal life" mentioned in the scriptures as something that humans can aspire to? Why do we have an expectation to go on living, in spite of the fact that death is inevitable, and why do many fear death? It is as foreign now as it was in the beginning.....

"Eternal life" means not dying...ever. So how did that apply to humans in their mortal flesh? "The tree of life" in the garden was there to impart everlasting life.....(Genesis 3:22-24)...but it was conditional. Obey and live....disobey and lose your place in God's arrangement. It was basically that simple.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Mockery Jane? Really? you stoop so low!
It's about making you accountable and correcting any and all fairy tales after all we are about truth yeah?
F2F

I'm sorry but you ask for it .....come down off your high horse LR and deal with what is real yourself.....you cannot be a Christian in isolation....so who are your brothers? Answer that and we might have some common ground for a discussion.....until then. I will continue to let your posts speak the nonsense they always have.....

This is your truth, not mine. OK?

 

[face2face]

ok you do get that that is a representation of the first two humans ever, and they didnt like write any of this down, there were no eyewitnesses, etc, right? Adamu meant “human” in the earlier Babylonian language, etc, i mean could you possibly be reading too literally there?

Bc you seem to be doing a lot of reducing to literal application with what appears to be a high degree of confidence, wouldnt you say? Im not saying that it’s necessarily bad to entertain them as possibilities, but you really have no way of determining whether “so death was not inevitable nor was it natural,” see? How do you prove that? So dont get me wrong believing that? fine. Stating it as an indisputable fact? I hope you allow some room for other possibilities?

This is an issue for Aunty Jane; as it is for all who try to force a literal interpretation on Genesis.

1 Corinthians 15:47

If Adam was made of the earth earthy! was death already working in his members? We understand his moral sin assured that death but what state was Adam when he was made is a guess from Jane at best.

Our community along with many others lean on the phrase "very good" to mean Adam was in some state between immortality and mortality, but again - nowhere in Scripture is such a state spoken of.

The Hebrew implies ""dying thou shalt die" possibly implying Adam was already a dying creature and sin would confirm this death...after all animals were created as dying creatures.

These type of queries have rendered Genesis 1-3 a parable.

It's difficult to find beleivers who are open and honest enough to say "I just dont know" which is where I am at with Adams pre-sin nature.

F2F

 

[Jack]

This is another false teaching which has crept in...imagine your view of a God who allows what Christians say is His immortal soul to be tortured and burn forever. Most Christians are dumb...(said as respectfully as I can) they swallow nonsensical ideas without even thinking about how illogical they are. I mean, on one hand the Christian extols God virtues of being loving and compassionate and then you go and say that.

I've harped on for so long about understanding Bible Imagery and how the writer wants to convey the seriousness of being buried in the ground for ever never to exist at all - the burning analogy is a good one!

I dont know how to help the misled Christian - its such a burden to carry.

F2F

Are you saying God has to ask your permission to burn people in Hell "forever and ever"? Every translation I know of teaches eternal punishment in the "everlasting fire".

 

[face2face]

I'm sorry but you ask for it .....come down off your high horse LR and deal with what is real yourself.....you cannot be a Christian in isolation....so who are your brothers? Answer that and we might have some common ground for a discussion.....until then. I will continue to let your posts speak the nonsense they always have.....

This is your truth, not mine. OK?

Don't you tire of listening to the same song?

 

[face2face]

Are you saying God has to ask your permission to burn people in Hell "forever and ever"? Every translation I know of teaches eternal punishment in the "everlasting fire".

The question is mute! There is no place of everlasting fire so why would God need ask such a question! You dont understand Bible imagery...like someone else I know lol.

 

[face2face]

ok you do get that that is a representation of the first two humans ever, and they didnt like write any of this down, there were no eyewitnesses, etc, right? Adamu meant “human” in the earlier Babylonian language, etc, i mean could you possibly be reading too literally there?

Bc you seem to be doing a lot of reducing to literal application with what appears to be a high degree of confidence, wouldnt you say? Im not saying that it’s necessarily bad to entertain them as possibilities, but you really have no way of determining whether “so death was not inevitable nor was it natural,” see? How do you prove that? So dont get me wrong believing that? fine. Stating it as an indisputable fact? I hope you allow some room for other possibilities?

The other issue with this subject is that of temptation. We are told temptation can only occur in flesh and blood nature - divine nature cannot be tempted with evil!

James 1:12 Happy is the one who endures testing, because when he has proven to be genuine, he will receive the crown of life that God promised to those who love him. 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted•, “I am tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires. 1:15 Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death

All temptation which results in sin MUST and ALWAYS result in death as per Romans 6:23(not instant but eventual)

Notice James use of conception leading to birth as the analogy for temptation to sin which leads to death?

God (divine nature) cannot be tempted, nor does He or His angels tempt anyone!

So for Adam and Eve to be tempted they must have been flesh and blood creatures and be in a state where lust can take root! I believe they had pure consciences but their nature was dying.

But again, this is only my personal opinion which is based on what I believe is a feasible explanation.

F2F

 

[keithr]

Since you seem to stumble over the fact that you cannot accept what God promises unless you understand it, do you doubt his ability to fulfill his promise?

I do not doubt God's ability to fulfill His promise! Just because I'm trying to understand the reality of what we are doesn't mean that I don't believe God!

Does God tell us that we will be clones of our former selves

No, the Scriptures say that we have an earthly (physical) body and that Christians after their resurrection will have a spiritual body. Will a physical part remain in the spiritual body? I very much doubt it (spirit beings, God, Jesus and the angels, existed before the physical universe was created). For Jesus to have become a spirit being again, and for Christians to become spirit beings, having a spirit body, indicates to me that the essence, or core, of what we are must be spiritual. The Scriptures give evidence of spirit beings abiding in and controlling human bodies (and even in the bodies of pigs), so the evidence does seem to point to humans also having a spirit part that lives in and controls the physical body.

Job 33:4 (WEB):

(4) The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.​

Job 32:8 (WEB):

(8) But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.​

John 4:24 (WEB):

(24) God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”​

or do the resurrections in the Bible indicate that the life of the person raised was fully restored, despite that fact that (in Lazarus’ case especially) they had been dead long enough for brain death to have taken place days before. Brain death occurs when oxygen deprives cells in the brain die and cannot be reactivated. Once brain death occurs, the “soul” (person) is dead. No one can bring them back to life except by God's power.

In lazarus' case, he had been dead for 4 days and his body had started decomposing and was stinking. Would God restoring the physical body, changing the molecular structure of the flesh, and resuscitating or re-animating the body, would that still be the same person? If who and what we are is just down to the connections in our physical brains, then it is very similar to computer software - God can recreate that software again, in a physical brain or in a spirit body somehow, but it will still be a copy or replication. God could create multiple copies of you, but which if any would be the real original you? To my understanding it can only be a true resurrection to life if there is a some part of us, most likely spiritual, that is uniquely us, which continues in existence in a dormant or unconscious state when we die, and which god can revive again, or He can destroy us.

This is you putting your own conditions on something no one can really understand. This is God, the Creator that you are expressing doubts about.

As I said, I don't have doubts about God! I'm just trying to understand the nature of living beings. It's not a vital subject; I'm just sharing my thoughts about it.

We don’t know what God can do....so does he have limits in your estimations?

No. Matthew 19:26 (WEB):

(26) Looking at them, Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”​

Do we have to know the specifics (which our limited brain capacity could not comprehend) to believe what God says about the resurrection?

No.

How does God’s kingdom “come” and when is God’s will done “on earth as it is in heaven”?

That's a different subject. I'd rather not digress onto that!

 

[marksman]

"Salvation" is a common topic among professed Christians, but the whole idea of it has been warped and twisted into something that has no bearing on why God created humans to live on this earth in the first place.

If you pull everything together under a "big picture", all of the diverse ideas melt away into nonsense, and a clear and logical picture emerges.

So first of all, why do we need saving?....and what are we getting saved from?

Understanding why God put us here on this earth, is the first place to start getting answers to those questions.
What did he tell the first humans as to their role here?

Genesis 2:4-9....
"This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. 5 Now no shrub of the field was yet on the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6 But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person. 8 The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the Lord God caused every tree to grow that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (NASB)

Read that carefully and tell us why God put mankind on this earth in the first place.....

More to come later....this topic will be addressed in logical stages....always from God's word.

I hope we are getting saved from thee faith

 

[keithr]

We are his representatives here on this carefully prepared planet, charged with taking care of all the precious life he placed here. We were not just to be gardeners, but representing the Creator himself, endowed with his qualities and creativity to fully administer what we were put here to do.

Who would we be God's representatives to? The animals don't have enough understanding to consider who God is. The angels already know who God is and have direct access to Him.

Why do people imagine that they must go to heaven, when it was never in God’s purpose for humankind to go anywhere but here?

Probably because it was God's purpose from before the world existed to call many humans with a promise of sharing in Jesus' inheritance, and a promise of a heavenly home:

1 Corinthians 15:49

(49) As we have borne the image of those made of dust, let’s also bear the image of the heavenly.​

Ephesians 2:6

(6) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,​

2 Corinthians 5:1

(1) For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.​

John 14:2-3

(2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.
(3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.​

This earth was designed to be our permanent home. Everlasting life was offered on condition that the humans obey God’s directives so that this planet, out of all that exist in his vast Universe for now, would be a jewel in space, reflecting God’s glory and those made in God’s image, helping to maintain it in pristine condition forever. That is what I see as our purpose here,

"reflecting God’s glory and those made in God’s image" - relecting to whom, and for what purpose?

I don’t think in our present state that we have the ability to understand more than the basic outline....so faith means just accepting what God says without the need to “understand the reality”.....we will all know what God wants us to know in due time.....

I agree with that.

 

[keithr]

Since the elect will be all be “kings and priests” ruling with Christ in heaven, (Revelation 20:6) each and one specially chosen by God for that role, how can all Christians fit that description? That would be like having “all Chiefs and no Indians”.....the elect are the ‘rulers and priests’ for those who are not chosen as “saints” (holy ones).

Simple! Not everyone is called to be a Christian, and not all that are called are chosen. There will be billions of people who are not Christians who will be resurrected as humans and will live on the earth. It is not for us to know now how many God has chosen to have a share in Jesus' inheritance.

1 Corinthians 1:2...
“To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours”. (NASB)

The “saints” are ‘called’ and they are in company with those who are not called, but who together, collectively call on the name of their Lord Jesus. All are Christians, but with different destinies. Those not called are not jealous of those who are, because they know it is God’s choosing, not theirs.

That's not how it reads to me. I understand Paul to be addressing his letter to the saints (Christians) in Corinth and to all saints (Christians) elsewhere. All who call on the name of Jesus are saints (Christians) - 1 Corinthians 1:2-3 (WEB):

(2) to the assembly of God which is at Corinth; those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours:
(3) Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

How does God call us? :

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

(13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
(14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

1 Thessalonians 1:4-7 (ESV)

(4) For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,
(5) because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.
(6) And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit,
(7) so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia.​

Those that hear the gospel and believe it have been chosen, Ephesians 1:13 (WEB):

(13) In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,​

We were sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believed the gospel – it’s a completed transaction, our salvation is assured! Ephesians 1:3-6 (WEB):

(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ;
(4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love;
(5) having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire,
(6) to the praise of the glory of his grace, by which he freely gave us favor in the Beloved,​

Yes, this well describes those of the elect.....but in Revelation 7 we see two groups mentioned....a finite group seen in heaven with Jesus (144,000 members of spiritual Israel)

The 144,000 are on the earth, and it says they are all Israelites.

contrasted with a second group of infinite number, who attribute salvation to God and his Christ...they are said to “come out of the great tribulation”, which occurs on earth at the end of this world system of things.....

The Church has already been resurrected and are in heaven before the events of Revelation 7 are to take place.

Then one of the elders responded, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. . . . .for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.” (Revelation 7:4,9-10,13-NASB)

Why didn't John know who the great multitude was? Because the Church was already in heaven, before the Great Tribulation had started. They're there before Jesus takes the scroll and opens it, which eventually results in the Great Tribulation. Why do they need to have tears wiped away? Because they realised the truth too late, during the Great Tribulation, and missed out on the calling to become adopted sons of God, members of the body and bride of Christ, joint heirs with our Lord Jesus.

We have so much to look forward to..... the restoration of God’s first purpose.....what God starts, he finishes.

Indeed! 1 Corinthians 2:9 (KJV):

(9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.​

Jesus promised the thief hung alongside of him....”you will be with me in paradise”....he was promising him an earthly resurrection as one of those who did evil deeds, but paid for them with his own life. (John 5:28-29) He was not promised heaven, but Jesus’ sacrifice guaranteed him a resurrection back to life on earth in paradise restored.

Yes, that's correct. The thief wasn't a Christian!

 

[bbyrd009]

Taking Jesus and his disciples as examples....who was it that persecuted them? Wasn't it their own people, those attached to the mainstream belief system taught by their leaders as truth, but proven by Jesus to be out of line with the scriptures they claimed to follow. He gave them examples and for the majority, it fell on deaf ears....but why? A remnant was prophesied to respond to the truth, and only a remnant of natural Jews did.


Why do you want to put a different scenario on what has already been established as Bible truth? If Adam and his wife were not held accountable for what they did, the human race would be doomed with no way to extract themselves from the endless cycle of sin and death that our first parents plunged us into..... If God had not sent his son into the world to redeem Adam's children, his death, and all the blood sacrifices in Israel make absolutely no sense.

On what basis do you even suggest such a thing?

that spiritual death is what is being conveyed there, maybe?

 

[bbyrd009]

The first humans did not speak the earlier Babylonian language

i mean…are you even hearing yourself? You dont think it might be wise to allow for other possibilities there?

 

[bbyrd009]

How many times is "eternal life" mentioned in the scriptures as something that humans can aspire to? Why do we have an expectation to go on living, in spite of the fact that death is inevitable

strong delusion?

"Eternal life" means not dying...ever.

you imagine that “eternal” means “forever” then, i take it? That would be aidios, not aion, wouldnt it?