What does it mean to be born again?

[marks]

May I tweak the above just ever so slightly, even though I think you are saying the same thing... We walk by faith right? So...if we believe that old man is indeed dead, and the new resurrected man we are today is alive in Christ... The fruit of that faith, the fruit of that belief, the result of our trust in what God has declared is in fact true, is a the life lived in righteousness and holiness, as presented in Romans 8. The battle we have presently is over self. We are tempted in the flesh to believe that we are carnal and still living in the flesh (and others confirming that lie isn't helpful). But we are to believe God. The life we live is a refection of our faith. If Christians don't live lives of love, joy, peace, contentment, kindness, generosity etc, it isn't because they don't believe in the law, or because Jesus died in their place, is because they don't believe they are dead. And if we are dead in Christ, so also are we alive in Him. Which is what Paul was saying to overcome by following his example by dying daily... Affirming by faith what God has already declared to be true.

I don't see us saying something different, and I appreciate you bringing this out more.

It's because this is true that we have victory over flesh when we live this way, by our faith that what God says is true.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

You have to see how your idealization gets in the way of a true walk, a true repentance, a true encounter...all so that you can claim that everything that happened to Paul is automatically yours.

You may think this is helpful, and it may be to someone who is actually in that position. But what effect do you think it has upon someone who is in fact walking in light and faith, does have a true faith and has experienced true repentance and knows Jesus and relates to Him daily? How can you be so sure in your estimation of someone's character, faith, and motives? What @marks says theologically is correct. Your judgement of him in proclaiming it merely an idealistic hope without experiential historical value is misguided at best, and satanic at worst.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I guess it’s beginning again?

 

[marks]

I guess it’s beginning again?

Who began what? Where is it starting?

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Let me go grab the cheese we have enough wine .

 

[Johann]

May I tweak the above just ever so slightly, even though I think you are saying the same thing... We walk by faith right? So...if we believe that old man is indeed dead, and the new resurrected man we are today is alive in Christ... The fruit of that faith, the fruit of that belief, the result of our trust in what God has declared is in fact true, is a the life lived in righteousness and holiness, as presented in Romans 8. The battle we have presently is over self. We are tempted in the flesh to believe that we are carnal and still living in the flesh (and others confirming that lie isn't helpful). But we are to believe God. The life we live is a refection of our faith. If Christians don't live lives of love, joy, peace, contentment, kindness, generosity etc, it isn't because they don't believe in the law, or because Jesus died in their place, is because they don't believe they are dead. And if we are dead in Christ, so also are we alive in Him. Which is what Paul was saying to overcome by following his example by dying daily... Affirming by faith what God has already declared to be true.
KJV Romans 6:22
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
KJV Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
KJV Romans 3:22
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
KJV Romans 5:15-18
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

You explained it well @Brakelite

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Let me go grab the cheese we have enough wine .

Do you have anything at all to add to the conversation that these men are having since this morning in here? Anything to add to the op? Anything to add about the verses they are all laboring over?

 

[Johann]

Do you have anything at all to add to the conversation that these men are having since this morning in here? Anything to add to the op? Anything to add about the verses they are all laboring over?

Be gentle sister, please.
J.

 

[amigo de christo]

Do you have anything at all to add to the conversation that these men are having since this morning in here? Anything to add to the op? Anything to add about the verses they are all laboring over?

I have no idea what they are laboring over . I pray some of them are contending for the truth .
it gets depressing to watch some defend falsehoods over and over and over again .
I usually just come in and out of certain places here and there . TIME TO POINT TO CHRIST and all biblical sound doctrine
cause all else is but vainity in the winds .

 

[Episkopos]

You may think this is helpful, and it may be to someone who is actually in that position. But what effect do you think it has upon someone who is in fact walking in light and faith, does have a true faith and has experienced true repentance and knows Jesus and relates to Him daily? How can you be so sure in your estimation of someone's character, faith, and motives? What @marks says theologically is correct. Your judgement of him in proclaiming it merely an idealistic hope without experiential historical value is misguided at best, and satanic at worst.

Someone who walks in resurrection life doesn't look to justify their present walk by believing certain verses are true for all who believe.

Paul warns people to fear and bear the right fruit...or else rejection occurs. That never happens to those who are ideologically indoctrinated. It's the actual experience that brings out the reality rather than the ideology.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Our walk is by faith and not be sight. We aren't waiting for what we see before we believe what the Bible says, is that not true? So I go first to, what actually does the Bible say?

This is never, ever going to work for me. It just isn’t. And it strikes me as…of soul power, a bit like Nees’ “latent power of the soul.”
It also has bits of positive thinking to change the course of your life and get what you want mixed in with it.

I can’t ever say - even though I am in a massive struggle with my flesh, a very literal, very awful struggle, with my flesh shrieking, raging, grudging, resenting, raising my blood pressure, making myself ill with anger etc. - the entire problem is I just don’t believe my flesh is dead.

Now, I’m NOT in such a massive struggle with my flesh any more - God calmed my passions, weaned me - but my struggle was not because I caused it to simply look as if my flesh wasn’t dead even though in actuality it really was dead.

I could live another 60 years and it STILL would not work for me. And yet, I WAS weaned, my flesh is finally quieted and no longer ruling over me. I don’t get those murderous rages at men any more, I no longer murder and am unable to sleep because of seething anger at how someone treated me and revenge fantasies. Even when I post screaming goats, my flesh is not shrieking and I’m not angry and grudging. The most that occurs is that I need a break from men repeating the same exact things over and over and over again because it feels like…a four year old forcing me to watch My Little Pony 95 times.

And you say it is NEVER going to happen that I be free from my flesh unless I believe my flesh is dead even as I struggle monstrously with it, yet He calmed my flesh and I have amazing peace in myself even though I did not ever believe as you say I must in order to advance.

 

[Brakelite]

Someone who walks in resurrection life doesn't look to justify their present walk by believing certain verses are true for all who believe.

Paul warns people to fear and bear the right fruit...or else rejection occurs. That never happens to those who are ideologically indoctrinated. It's the actual experience that brings out the reality rather than the ideology. What he's 1

Are you saying that @marks is an advocate OSAS? I didn't know that. I certainly haven't discerned that from what he has been contributing here, although I must confess I have read every single post on this thread... It jumps 10 pages every time I enter.
If he is a OSAS type of guy, I would have to question him on the nuances of that stand, because I also am a OSAS person, yet that being conditional on bearing fruit and remaining faithful, which is basically what you are saying right? Is that reason to judge others motives for being here and discussing their beliefs?

 

[marks]

Someone who walks in resurrection life doesn't look to justify their present walk by believing certain verses are true for all who believe.

I think what we are endeavoring to do here is come to agreement on the meaning of these Scriptures which pertain to our rebirth.

Romans 6:3-14 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

This passage has so much to say, and as we've been talking about crucifying the flesh, I've been focusing on those parts that tell us about this.

"by believing certain verses are true for all who believe."

I agree with what you are doing in saying this, challenging the application of the passage. Absolutely, we need to correctly understand to whom this is being directed.

I find the answer to be this,

3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

I see Paul to be writing about "those who were baptized into Jesus Christ. Do you concur?

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Are you saying that @marks is an advocate OSAS? I didn't know that. I certainly haven't discerned that from what he has been contributing here, although I must confess I have read every single post on this thread... It jumps 10 pages every time I enter.
If he is a OSAS type of guy, I would have to question him on the nuances of that stand, because I also am a OSAS person, yet that being conditional on bearing fruit and remaining faithful, which is basically what you are saying right? Is that reason to judge others motives for being here and discussing their beliefs?

I think its irresponsible to the max to not encourage people to go to the cross to have the flesh dealt with...instead encouraging a belief that there is no need to do so.

It is a question of truth and faith. Salvation is a process. There is a narrow door...but also a narrow way.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I have no idea what they are laboring over . I pray some of them are contending for the truth .
it gets depressing to watch some defend falsehoods over and over and over again .
I usually just come in and out of certain places here and there . TIME TO POINT TO CHRIST and all biblical sound doctrine
cause all else is but vainity in the winds .

please stick to the topic of the thread. If you are depressed by a thread and therefore can’t contribute to the topic, just don’t come into it. The topic is, what does it mean to be born again. And currently, the conversation has gone into the thought of “dead to sin.” The topic is NOT about popcorn and wine.
These men have been trying very hard today to keep the conversation civil. We are all not wanting to go back to chaos. So, respectfully sir, stick to topic please.

 

[Brakelite]

This is never, ever going to work for me. It just isn’t. And it strikes me as…of soul power, a bit like Nees’ “latent power of the soul.”
It also has bits of positive thinking to change the course of your life and get what you want mixed in with it.

I can’t ever say - even though I am in a massive struggle with my flesh, a very literal, very awful struggle, with my flesh shrieking, raging, grudging, resenting, raising my blood pressure, making myself ill with anger etc. - the entire problem is I just don’t believe my flesh is dead.

Now, I’m NOT in such a massive struggle with my flesh any more - God calmed my passions, weaned me - but my struggle was not because I caused it to simply look as if my flesh wasn’t dead even though in actuality it really was dead.

I could live another 60 years and it STILL would not work for me. And yet, I WAS weaned, my flesh is finally quieted and no longer ruling over me. I don’t get those murderous rages at men any more, I no longer murder and am unable to sleep because of seething anger at how someone treated me and revenge fantasies. Even when I post screaming goats, my flesh is not shrieking and I’m not angry and grudging. The most that occurs is that I need a break from men repeating the same exact things over and over and over again because it feels like…a four year old forcing me to watch My Little Pony 95 times.

And you say it is NEVER going to happen that I be free from my flesh unless I believe my flesh is dead even as I struggle monstrously with it, yet He calmed my flesh and I have amazing peace in myself even though I did not ever believe as you say I must in order to advance.

The old carnal selfish man is dead. The scriptures say so. That old man, the old carnal nature we were born with, is the first husband of Romans 7, and Jesus is the new Husband. That doesn't mean that our struggle has stopped, I also have my battles. But the victory is already won, and it is accomplished experientially by running to Christ every time we are tempted to sin and offend. What we are battling against isn't a dead person, it's against the residue of evil habits, twisted thinking, wrong motives, misunderstood truth, and in particular misapprehension of the true character of God still abiding deeply in our conscious and subconscious minds and hearts. There's our battle, and we overcome by the blood of the Lamb... The gospel, and our testimony... Our witness that what God has declared to be true regarding our being once crucified with Him and now risen with Him, and now able to partake of the divine nature, is indeed true.

 

[marks]

The topic is, what does it mean to be born again. And currently, the conversation has gone into the thought of “dead to sin.”

For me, it's about this part,

Romans 6:3-11 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

What is the correct meaning and application? To me, it seems like very clear teaching, and seems to harmonize well with the rest of Scripture.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Be gentle sister, please.
J.

I’m trying. We all are. I’m a tad bit proud of us at our control of tongues, by letting the Spirit guide us rather than our flesh and trying to bear with one another. I feel a bit of protective vigilance that no one disturb our flesh again and we fall into chaos.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The old carnal selfish man is dead. The scriptures say so.

The same man who said that also said to believers, you are yet carnal, walking by the flesh and I can’t yet speak to you as to the mature. So…

 

[Brakelite]

I think its irresponsible to the max to not encourage people to go to the cross to have the flesh dealt with...instead encouraging a belief that there is no need to do so.

It is a question of truth and faith. Salvation is a process. There is a narrow door...but also a narrow way.

All of which I agree with... But do you have to repeat that personally to individuals as their prime issue? Can you not teach this truth as a generic truth and leave the holy Spirit to do His work in convicting individuals of their needs? It isn't your job to convict individuals of their shortcomings... You are human and as prone to misjudging human character as the next man. You could be inflicting more damage than good.