What does it mean to be born again?

[stunnedbygrace]

God save us from froward Christian’s.

 

[Johann]

I’m glad it makes sense to you. However that’s not what born again means.

REGENERATION (Gk. paliggenesia, “a being born again”). The spiritual change wrought
in man by the Holy Spirit, by which he becomes the possessor of a new life. It is to be
distinguished from justification, because justification is a change in our relation to God,
whereas regeneration is a change in our moral and spiritual nature. The necessity, in the one
case, is in the fact of guilt; in the other, depravity. They coincide in point of time and are
alike instantaneous, and thus are both covered by the general term conversion, as that term is
popularly and loosely applied (see Conversion). Still they are distinct in that the one is the
removal of guilt by divine forgiveness, and the other is the change from the state of depravity,
or spiritual death, to that of spiritual life. Regeneration is also to be distinguished from
sanctification, inasmuch as the latter is the work of God in developing the new life and
bringing it to perfection, whereas the former is the beginning of that life. See Sanctification.
Regeneration is represented in the Scriptures principally by such terms as “born again,”
“born of God,” “born of the Spirit” (see John 3:3–13; 1 John 3:9; 4:7; 5:1; 1 Pet. 1:23). There
are also other forms of expression of deep significance with reference to the same great fact
(see Ezek. 36:25–26; Eph. 4:22–24; 2 Cor. 5:17; Col. 3:9–10).
The work of regeneration is specially ascribed in the Scriptures to the Holy Spirit (see
John 3:5–8; Titus 3:5). This is in full accord with the whole tenor of special revelation in
representing the agency of the Spirit in the economy of salvation. (See Holy Spirit.)
Regeneration by baptism, or baptismal regeneration, has been a widely prevalent error.
This is due in part to an improper use of the term. A proselyte from heathenism to the Jewish
religion was said to be “born again.” A corresponding use of the term crept into the early
Christian church. Those who received baptism, the initiatory rite of church membership, were
said to be regenerated; but this was probably without any intention of denying the deeper
work of the Holy Spirit. It was only a loose and improper way of indicating the change in a
man’s external relationship. And it is proper to say that some of the advocates of the
baptismal regeneration in the Church of England still use the term in this sense and make a
distinction between regeneration as effected by baptism and the great work of spiritual
renewal. But the error has its broader basis in an unscriptural idea of the character and
efficiency of the sacraments. And thus it is held not only by Roman Catholics but also by
many Lutherans and many in the Church of England. (See Sacraments.)
BIBLIOGRAPHY: A. Kuyper, The Work of the Holy Spirit (1941), pp. 293–332; J. F. Walvoord,
The Holy Spirit (1965), pp. 128–37.
Unger.

 

[RLT63]

Actually, I agree with that first part of what she said. I never read it because I mostly skip her posts but…that first part I could see of your quote of hers is quite true.

Do you share her belief that only 144,000 will go to Heaven and the rest of the Jehovah’s Witnesses will be resurrected to live forever on Earth?

 

[Johann]

Do you share her belief that only 144,000 will go to Heaven and the rest of the Jehovah’s Witnesses will be resurrected to live forever on Earth?

I don't think she does--SGB is not a JW

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Do you share her belief that only 144,000 will go to Heaven and the rest of the Jehovah’s Witnesses will be resurrected to live forever on Earth?

No. I said the first part of what I could see in the box you quoted of hers is actually true. She didn’t say anything like that in the first part.

 

[Brakelite]

As I said earlier, the mosaic law didn’t bring me to Christ. I’d never even heard of them prior to knowing him. I’m not a Jew, was never commanded to be circumcised, ate a lot of bbq etc…

Remembering my own experience of conversion... Born again... Was the result of my realization that in God's eyes, my way of life was not up to His holy standard.
I wasn't considering the law at all, whether Moses'law or God's. A friend had simply asked me, "do I think my lifestyle meets with God's approval?". A few hours later I looked up to heaven and admitted it wouldn't. I asked God to make my life one He would approve of. That night I was born again, and woke up a different person.
I was confronted, gently, by God holiness and righteousness. His love wooed me, and I succumbed. But God righteousness, according to the scriptures, is His law. They are the same... Righteousness, law, love... These eternal realities we cannot cast aside or ignore, and the grace and mercy of God changes us over time into the image of Christ whereby we become one with Him, His righteousness, and His law. I think it exceedingly helpful that we differentiate between God's law, the law He wrote with His own finger on stone, and what we call the law of Moses, which was given because of transgression against the law on stone. It is the second that is nailed to the cross and done away with.

 

[marks]

But one of the new things can very be the NEW religious outer man we take as a covering up for our continued lack of power over sin. Paul describes this realization in Romans 7. But he was honest and could NOT justify himself. Instead, He cried out to God for help...as we should, also. We, on the other hand can take on a NEW religious perspective that makes us worse than the Pharisees of old...by claiming for ourselves not only a personal righteousness...but the righteousness of God Himself. That should cause us to fear and tremble. There is wrath to come for this.

Something that I think needs to be understood about this, there is no conflict between being crucified with Christ, being dead and therefore freed from sin, and, calling out to God for help, relying completely on Him, in humility, seeking His grace to live as He intends.

There is a certain flow from ch 6 to 7 to 8 in this regard, ch 6 speaks of what happened to us that makes us so different. Ch 7 speaks of that difference in regards to sin, and law, and flesh. The experience in our struggles against sin. Ch 8 speaks of that difference in regard to the spirit, and overcoming, as we understand what God has and is doing, being strengthened thereby.

This is so oversimplified of course! So very much to be said in these few chapters!

This truth in ch 6 is our foundation, Christ Himself, you cannot have any other foundation, and if we do not have His Spirit we are none of His. In chapter 6 we are taught that being baptized into Christ means we are baptized into His death. And that being so, our old man is crucified. And being therefore dead, we are become freed from - literally "justified away from" - sin.

There is no power in untruth, holding to untruth is self-delusion. God isn't here teaching us what is false, nor teaching us to believe what is false. And we are specifically instructed to reckon this true, that we are in fact dead to sin, and alive to God.

Romans 6:19 KJV
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

The infirmity of your flesh . . . he describes this again in various ways. Even being crucified with Christ, we are still admonished to yield our members servants to righteousness unto holiness. And this is in harmony with so many other Scriptures.

I completely agree with you, that

Reckoning something like being dead and experiencing death itself is very different indeed.

Though, it's not, reckoning ourselves to be "as if we were" dead to sin, rather, reckon yourself dead indeed to sin, and alive unto God. Actually dead. Though we may not see it yet, because we need our minds renewed. The walk God brought me into in a moment, is reached by complete trust in what He has done.

I like to compare this to the man who lives by scrounging for food wherever he can find it. He's gotten better at it over the years, but that's still what he's doing. Then he realizes that this card in his pocket is actually good for paying for everything he needs, and he never receives a bill. He can put it back in his pocket, and say, "I'm not rich, I'm poor, just look at me!" Or he can receive God's promise, and live accordingly.

Our walk is by faith and not be sight. We aren't waiting for what we see before we believe what the Bible says, is that not true? So I go first to, what actually does the Bible say?

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

Actually, I agree with that first part of what she said. I never read it because I mostly skip her posts but…that first part I could see of your quote of hers is quite true.

She fails to recognize the spiritual truth that being born again literally changes a person here on earth from being a hopeless sinner and unable to know God, to one who may partake now of the divine nature and overcome sin. She fails to see that the kingdom is within us, and Jesus living within by His Spirit is effectual Lord of that kingdom now.
JWs are like Catholics. They say similar words to us... Born again... Justification... Sanctification... Kingdom etc etc, but what they mean by those words are quite different and lead to error. JW focus is on a literal physical kingdom on earth with Jesus in charge and a few select "born again" JW folk in heaven. In other words, there are no born again JWs, because none of them are resurrected yet.

 

[marks]

The work of regeneration is specially ascribed in the Scriptures to the Holy Spirit

Interestingly, Romans 6:7, "he who is dead is freed from sin", reads in the Greek, "he who is dead is justified away from sin". It's like our being made righteous is also applied to our nature here, just like Ephesians 4:24.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Something that I think needs to be understood about this, there is no conflict between being crucified with Christ, being dead and therefore freed from sin, and, calling out to God for help, relying completely on Him, in humility, seeking His grace to live as He intends.

There is a certain flow from ch 6 to 7 to 8 in this regard, ch 6 speaks of what happened to us that makes us so different. Ch 7 speaks of that difference in regards to sin, and law, and flesh. The experience in our struggles against sin. Ch 8 speaks of that difference in regard to the spirit, and overcoming, as we understand what God has and is doing, being strengthened thereby.

This is so oversimplified of course! So very much to be said in these few chapters!

This is idealized. Paul wrote what happened to him. BUT very few are like Paul. All you have to do is read his warnngs about being cut off....like the Israelites to realize Paul is not trying to form a delusional religious formula for succeess for whoever names and claims it. You have to see how your idealization gets in the way of a true walk, a true repentance, a true encounter...all so that you can claim that everything that happened to Paul is automatically yours.

 

[Johann]

God save us from froward Christian’s.

Interestingly, Romans 6:7, "he who is dead is freed from sin", reads in the Greek, "he who is dead is justified away from sin". It's like our being made righteous is also applied to our nature here, just like Ephesians 4:24.

Much love!

I have studied these Romans scriptures for years in Koine Greek brother--not to boast, but to appreciate what happened to us in our new birth--

Is freed (δεδικαίωται)
Lit., as Rev., is justified; i.e., acquitted, absolved; just as the dead person sins no more, being released from sin as from a legal claim. “As a man that is dead is acquitted and released from bondage among men, so a man that has died to sin is acquitted from the guilt of sin and released from its bondage” (Alford).
Vincent
New man (καινὸν)
See on Mat_26:29.
Created (κτισθέντα)
See on Eph_2:10.
In righteousness and true holiness (ἐν δικιαιοσύνη καὶ ὁσιότητι τῆς ἀληθείας)
Rev., correctly, in righteousness and holiness of truth. See on Luk_1:75. Truth. Opposed to deceit, Eph_4:22, and likewise personified. Righteousness and holiness are attributes of truth.
Vincent

Put on (endusasthai). First aorist middle infinitive of enduō (̇nō), for which see note on Col_3:10.

See who is putting on the the new man!

The new man (ton kainon anthrōpon). “The brand-new (see note on Eph_2:15) man,” though ton neon in Col_3:10.
Robertson

...and I marvel daily at our Father's mercies and chen/grace super abounding to more grace--and truth.

The reason I appreciate these two scholars, Robertson and Vincent--what a pity Epi cannot agree on our positional standing IN Christ in Rom 6, if you ever want to really appreciate Is 53--study this passage in Hebrew.

Shalom brother
J.

 

[Johann]

all so that you can claim that everything that happened to Paul is automatically yours.

Which is absolutely true, since Paul say--be imitators of me--this is my gospel, brother, I go by what stands written, Perfect Tense, and you can also , like Paul, have this experience.

 

[marks]

I have studied these Romans scriptures for years in Koine Greek brother--not to boast, but to appreciate what happened to us in our new birth--

Is freed (δεδικαίωται)
Lit., as Rev., is justified; i.e., acquitted, absolved; just as the dead person sins no more, being released from sin as from a legal claim. “As a man that is dead is acquitted and released from bondage among men, so a man that has died to sin is acquitted from the guilt of sin and released from its bondage” (Alford).
Vincent
New man (καινὸν)
See on Mat_26:29.
Created (κτισθέντα)
See on Eph_2:10.
In righteousness and true holiness (ἐν δικιαιοσύνη καὶ ὁσιότητι τῆς ἀληθείας)
Rev., correctly, in righteousness and holiness of truth. See on Luk_1:75. Truth. Opposed to deceit, Eph_4:22, and likewise personified. Righteousness and holiness are attributes of truth.
Vincent

Put on (endusasthai). First aorist middle infinitive of enduō (̇nō), for which see note on Col_3:10.

See who is putting on the the new man!

The new man (ton kainon anthrōpon). “The brand-new (see note on Eph_2:15) man,” though ton neon in Col_3:10.
Robertson

...and I marvel daily at our Father's mercies and chen/grace super abounding to more grace--and truth.

The reason I appreciate these two scholars, Robertson and Vincent--what a pity Epi cannot agree on our positional standing IN Christ in Rom 6, if you ever want to really appreciate Is 53--study this passage in Hebrew.

Shalom brother
J.

I didn't really think this would be new to you!



Much love!

 

[Johann]

I didn't really think this would be new to you!

I really appreciate you not giving up on this South African marks.

 

[marks]

This is idealized.

How do you mean this?

to form a delusional religious formula for succeess for whoever names and claims it.

I don't see that this shows an understanding of what I've been posting. This is not a "name it and claim it scheme", its about a new life, under a different law.

You have to see how your idealization gets in the way of a true walk, a true repentance, a true encounter...

Though I'm actually the one who is experiencing my life. To directly respond, I find walking in faith to be fruitful. That you say I'm not having a true walk, a true repentance, a true encounter . . . ? In all candor, I'm seeing that you don't really know how to understand my posts, much less that you have such a window into my life. But I'd like to focus on reaching some agreement over what these passages are truly teaching us, rather than get diverted.

In what way should we not accept these plain sayings of Romans 6? Are they not plainly stated? Do they not say these things I'm stating?

Point to the passage, in the place where you think I'm misunderstanding something, and we can look at it together.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

Interestingly, Romans 6:7, "he who is dead is freed from sin", reads in the Greek, "he who is dead is justified away from sin". It's like our being made righteous is also applied to our nature here, just like Ephesians 4:24.

Much love!

That act of justification, all included in Christ's death, applies to the whole world. No-one is excluded. However, those who refuse the offer of salvation and refuse to believe, take back their sins upon themselves, choosing to die the second death themselves rather than the Son of God.
Some also may believe that indeed Jesus died on their behalf, but do not allow the truth of that to sanctify them, meaning they remain unfit for heaven, even though their emancipation papers were signed and sealed by the Governor. They prefer to remain in the prisonhouse of sin.

 

[marks]

...all so that you can claim that everything that happened to Paul is automatically yours.

I hope you are seeing how this is not what I'm saying, or doing. But again, I want to stay focused on coming to a common understanding of this very important teaching.

Having been baptized into Christ, our old man is crucifed with Him, and we have died in Christ's death. Being therefore dead, we are freed from sin, from the power of the flesh, and we are admonished to account this to be true.

In this is our faith that we actually are free from sin, and therefore, recognizing reality, we then walk in that truth.

We are told that we have died with Christ, that we are free from sin, and are told to reckon this to be true, and since it's true, we're admonished to live that way.

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

How do you mean this?

I don't see that this shows an understanding of what I've been posting. This is not a "name it and claim it scheme", its about a new life, under a different law.


Though I'm actually the one who is experiencing my life. To directly respond, I find walking in faith to be fruitful. That you say I'm not having a true walk, a true repentance, a true encounter . . . ? In all candor, I'm seeing that you don't really know how to understand my posts, much less that you have such a window into my life. But I'd like to focus on reaching some agreement over what these passages are truly teaching us, rather than get diverted.

In what was should we not accept these plain sayings of Romans 6?

Much love!

It's fascinating how definite... How devoid of doubt or error...Like an absolute truth...Epi is in his perceptions of others characters and motives.

 

[marks]

I really appreciate you not giving up on this South African marks.

I appreciate you!!

Much love!

 

[Brakelite]

I hope you are seeing how this is not what I'm saying, or doing. But again, I want to stay focused on coming to a common understanding of this very important teaching.

Having been baptized into Christ, our old man is crucifed with Him, and we have died in Christ's death. Being therefore dead, we are freed from sin, from the power of the flesh, and we are admonished to account this to be true.

In this is our faith that we actually are free from sin, and therefore, recognizing reality, we then walk in that truth.

We are told that we have died with Christ, that we are free from sin, and are told to reckon this to be true, and since it's true, we're admonished to live that way.

Much love!

May I tweak the above just ever so slightly, even though I think you are saying the same thing... We walk by faith right? So...if we believe that old man is indeed dead, and the new resurrected man we are today is alive in Christ... The fruit of that faith, the fruit of that belief, the result of our trust in what God has declared is in fact true, is a the life lived in righteousness and holiness, as presented in Romans 8. The battle we have presently is over self. We are tempted in the flesh to believe that we are carnal and still living in the flesh (and others confirming that lie isn't helpful). But we are to believe God. The life we live is a refection of our faith. If Christians don't live lives of love, joy, peace, contentment, kindness, generosity etc, it isn't because they don't believe in the law, or because Jesus died in their place, is because they don't believe they are dead. And if we are dead in Christ, so also are we alive in Him. Which is what Paul was saying to overcome by following his example by dying daily... Affirming by faith what God has already declared to be true.
KJV Romans 6:22
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
KJV Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
KJV Romans 3:22
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
KJV Romans 5:15-18
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.