What is "OSAS"?

[doctrox]

Christians are to restore the fallen:

Galatians 6:1, "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restoresuch an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."
James 5:19-20, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

Your name can be blotted out of the book of life:

Exodus 32:32-33, "Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."
Deuteronomy 9:14, "Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they."
Deuteronomy 29:20, "The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven."
Psalms 69:28, "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."
Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

After God forgives your sin, you can lose your salvation by not forgiving others:

Matthew 18:23-35, "Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

 

[Jack]

That would make God unjust for killing and punishing men for something they cannot stop doing.

Be careful what kind of God You make with statements like this.

Committing a sin is not the same as living in sin. Everybody sins.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Completely totally "UNCONDITIONAL" salvation would equate to universalism, which is a false doctrine. From beginning to end, salvation is conditional on faith (not works) as I already explained to you in post #38.

OSAS falsely claims salvation is unconditional, that is, salvation cannot be lost under any circumstance as the Bsptist preachrrs I quoted have shown. Since salvation is conditional upon an obedient faith, then one must CONDITIONALLY remain faithful to God for falling from faith one no longer meets the condition.

Jn 10:28 the "them" that Christ gives (free gift) eternal life are those that CONDITIONALLY CONTUNUALLY hear and follow Him with both verbs being in the present tense. If one therefore one quits conditionally hearing and following CHrist they no longer qualify as one of the "them" of verse 28. No verse says the Christian can live as he pleasesm can turn from Christ and still be saved and no verse says once one is saved he cannot possibly fall away for hs no longer can choose to quit hearing and following. People hear and follow by volition and can of the same volition quit.

You continually are in error not wanting to realize the difference bwtwen works of merit and obedience to God...the two are completely different things. The hearing and following are obedience to God, they are not works of merit. Christ gives (free gift) to those who are obedient hence obedience in hearing and following earn nothing but are necessary CONDITIONS to receive that free gift of eternal lief Christ GIVES.

Jn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Obedience in laboring is necessary to have everlasting life that Christ GIVES....everlasting life is a free gift yet one must CONDITIONALLY work for the meat to receive the fre gift of everlasting life.

In regard to Hebrews 2:1-4, certain Hebrews were in danger of drifting away from the truths they had "heard" but apparently the truth did not sink in for those who permanently drift and ultimately fall away.

Hebrews 3:8 - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Heard the truth for a time, but then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

Those Hebrews were Christians, called brethren (Heb 3:12) described in Heb 6:4-5 as "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"...they "have become partakers of Christ" (Heb 3:14).
"and have fallen" became apostates. Heb 3:12 one cannot depart from God if he was never of God.

The writer of Hebrews was certainly not writing to lost Hebrews but Hebrews who had converted to Christianity and were being warned about falling away from Christ by returning back to the OT law. Hence they were being warned of neglect of the word they had heard (Heb 2:1-4) falling into unbelief (Heb 3:12) not maturing as Christians as they should have (Heb 5:11-14) refusing God (Heb 12:25)

*Jude 1:5 - The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Again, the context speaks of those had had become partakers of Christ and these "brethren" being warned about departing from God in unbelief. Clearly saved people who were partakers of Christ and of God but are being warned about departing from God. One cannot depart from God if he was never of God. From Heb 6 they were enlightened having left darkness (Col 1:13) tasted the heavenly gift (gift of salvation Rom 6:23), made partakers of the Holy Ghost (Heb 3:1,14 partakers of Christ and heavenly calling), tasted the word of God

OSAS is no lie. One can drift away from what they "heard" without ever being born again. Heard does not necessarily equate to had. In Hebrews 10:39, we read - But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, see post #83 from the link below:

Can salvation be lost

Nice smokescreen, but I remember what God said. Written to Christians: Philippians 2:12 (NKJV) 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; Notice that Paul said to...

www.christianityboard.com

Those who turn away from Christ never really trusted Him to begin with, as 1 John 2:19 says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” Those who apostatize are simply demonstrating that they are not true believers, and they never were. Just like in the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares, we see the same field were growing wheat and “false wheat” (tares or weeds). At first, the difference between the two types of plants was undetectable, but as time went on, the weeds were seen for what they truly were. In the same way, in various churches today, there may be true, born-again believers' side by side with pseudo-Christians/make believers. Such people profess to be Christians but were never truly born again. Judas Iscariot is an excellent example of one who apostatized yet was never truly saved to begin with.


Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.. (Ephesians 1:13-14) Believers are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30) *NOWHERE does the Bible say "unsealed."

CONTINUED...

Again, the 'never really saved" argument renders the words "fall" and "apostate" meaningless. These words show one who has moved away from a prior standing....moved from a saved standing to a lost one for a fallen person cannot fall for he is already fallen.

If those antichrist John was speaking about were always lost, then they cannot apostatize and fall from a saved position they never were in. Therefore all the verse would prove is a never saved person was never saved, it does not prove a saved person cannot ever fall away. If falling away is impossible then why give warnings to true Christians in 1 Jn 2:15-17?

John warns those true Christians to whom he was writing "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." ""IF" they CONDITIONALLY let God's word remain in them they would continue in the Son. If they did not let that word remain in them they would not continue in the Son. Again, no need for such a warning if falling is impossible.

John was speaking about certain individuals therefore you cannot make universal application as "proof" of the impossiblity of apostasy of any and all Christians for there are examples of those who were Christians that fell away (Heb 6 and 2 Pet 2).

Matt 10 is proof Judas was once saved, twice God is called the Father of Judas (vs 20, 29). Acts 1:25 Judas fell by transgression.....again an always fallen person cannot fall for he already is fallen. Judas fell from a saved standing to a lost standing by his transgressions.

I showed from both the OT and NT that being sealed and remaining sealed is CONDITIONAL upon continued obedience to God. No verse teaches being sealed is unconditional regardless of how the Christian lives.

 

[Jack]

I doubt that OSAS can be resolved among Christians. But what I truly don't understand is, why are Christians trying to convince other Christians they can NEVER be unsaved? It almost seems like OSAS believers are trying to convince each other.

 

[PinSeeker]

Again, being saved does not take away the free will for clearly the Christian can choose to turn to live in sin again...

Sure. I never insinuated otherwise. Yes, even though we are saved, we still sin. However, if one is in fact saved ~ born again from above ~ he/she will not "choose to turn to live in sin again" but rather choose otherwise, because he/she is no longer of the devil but of God. As Christians, we are being conformed to Christ, and that includes our will, which, yes, is very much our free will. Peter puts it this way, that according to God's great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. This is 1 Peter 1:3-5. There are several other passages like it, but that should be sufficient.

Grace and peace to you, Earnest T.

 

[PinSeeker]

I doubt that OSAS can be resolved among Christians.

Well, surely not if so many continue to insist it means something quite different than it is ~ or... get the order wrong, that we keep our own salvation by obedience and good works, rather than what is true, that our obedience and good works are the result and natural outpouring of the faith (and the Holy Spirit Whom) we have been given.

But what I truly don't understand is, why are Christians trying to convince other Christians they can NEVER be unsaved?

This seems backwards to me. Some Christians seem to be trying to convince other Christians they CAN be unsaved, that their salvation is not secure in Christ, and that, in direct contrast to Romans 8:37-39 that we are not conquerors through Him who loved us and that... something will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, and in direct contrast to 1 Peter 1:3-5 that the inheritance we have been caused to be born again to perishable, defiled, and fading, not kept in heaven for us, and we are not being guarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

It almost seems like OSAS believers are trying to convince each other.

Nah. There should be no doubt. There's surely not for me...

Grace and peace to you, Jack.

 

[ScottA]

Everybody sins.

Not those born of God.

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Everybody sins.

So then a worse thing has fallen upon everyone?

Your comment is abominable.

“…sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14, KJV)

 

[Jack]

Not those born of God.

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God

1 John 1:8-9 (NKJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John included himself. I believe he was saved.

 

[Jack]

So then a worse thing has fallen upon everyone?

Your comment is abominable.

“…sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14, KJV)

See above.

Some of those who claim they NEVER sin are some of the most judgmental, a big sin!

 

[ScottA]

1 John 1:8-9 (NKJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John included himself. I believe he was saved.

I am reconciled on both 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 1:8-9. But since you respond as if the one voids the other, it would appear that you are not.

Both are true. That is why I asked you which "me" you were referring to. But you have not acknowledged the truth of 1 John 3:9, and are showing a disregard for reconciling all that is written.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I doubt that OSAS can be resolved among Christians. But what I truly don't understand is, why are Christians trying to convince other Christians they can NEVER be unsaved? It almost seems like OSAS believers are trying to convince each other.

I know people who boast of OSAS they use such as a blanket ? That's the ones who are not Saved ? but they use it as a shield ! but they have only little faith ? and think that will get everyone through ? Maybe ? just only maybe ! but it would be best to have 100% faith or at least head in that direction ? So one is not lead astray ?

Sure people do loose their faith ! why, because the parable of the weeds points out that the Weeds, of this world grow up and strangle that faith in fact. but such a one may still have that spark hidden in fact truly that never died out and for lack of faith such grew out of control, so they have said to me. OH you still do not believe all that BS do you ? This may be around their friends or even them that we all went to Bible study with ? And i say Yes is do in fact ! and much more that i ever did back in the days, not to mention i am 100% resolved to the fact that Christ Jesus is first and foremost in my life.

It is only when one is truly Saved that OSAS is 100% true, but not before hand ? because if one does not have great abundance of real faith one is not strong enough to push through all the temptations to undermine you in abiding ?

Not that a Christian of just a little value is of no regard, for one of greater faith will nurture that that is in you ! and who knows they may be much greater then you ever thought one day ! Many a mongrel type person has got on track later in life, as we have seen with some of the Saints.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I doubt that OSAS can be resolved among Christians. But what I truly don't understand is, why are Christians trying to convince other Christians they can NEVER be unsaved? It almost seems like OSAS believers are trying to convince each other.

Yes, I agree.
It is circular reasoning and a circle is a continuum, no beginning and no ending !

A relative of mine had a dog once named Buddy, his favorite activity was ALWAYS trying to catch his tail......lol !

 

[Jack]

I am reconciled on both 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 1:8-9. But since you respond as if the one voids the other, it would appear that you are not.

Both are true. That is why I asked you which "me" you were referring to. But you have not acknowledged the truth of 1 John 3:9, and are showing a disregard for reconciling all that is written.

Right on schedule! Those who proclaim they don't sin are possibly the most judgmental I have witnessed!

Matthew 7:1-5 (NKJV)
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged.
2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.
3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?
5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

 

[Jack]

Yes, I agree.
It is circular reasoning and a circle is a continuum, no beginning and no ending !

A relative of mine had a dog once named Buddy, his favorite activity was ALWAYS trying to catch his tail......lol !

My cat chases her tail. It's hilarious!

 

[mailmandan]

OSAS falsely claims salvation is unconditional, that is, salvation cannot be lost under any circumstance as the Bsptist preachrrs I quoted have shown.

Salvation is conditional on faith and committing acts of vile sin/living like the devil is not descriptive of those who are born of God, (1 John 3:7-10) so your Baptist preachers' extreme exception (straw man argument) does not represent those in the OSAS camp in general.

Since salvation is conditional upon an obedient faith, then one must CONDITIONALLY remain faithful to God for falling from faith one no longer meets the condition.

So how much obedience/works does it take (according to you) and just how faithful must one be (according to you) in order to become and remain saved? What you clearly teach is salvation by works, which explains a lot of your error.

Jn 10:28 the "them" that Christ gives (free gift) eternal life are those that CONDITIONALLY CONTUNUALLY hear and follow Him with both verbs being in the present tense. If one therefore one quits conditionally hearing and following CHrist they no longer qualify as one of the "them" of verse 28. No verse says the Christian can live as he pleasesm can turn from Christ and still be saved and no verse says once one is saved he cannot possibly fall away for hs no longer can choose to quit hearing and following. People hear and follow by volition and can of the same volition quit.

More eisegesis on your part. John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear My voice and some of them don't hear My voice) and I know them, (not some of them I know and some of them I don't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow me and some of them don't follow me) 28 And I give them eternal life, (not some of them I give eternal life and some of them I don't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of my hand and some of them will be snatched out of my hand).

*Nowhere in these passages of scripture did Jesus imply what you are implying. It's those who do not believe who are not His sheep (John 10:26) and do not have these promises. John 6:39 - This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day.

You continually are in error not wanting to realize the difference bwtwen works of merit and obedience to God...the two are completely different things.

Sugar coated double talk. If works of obedience (which follow saving faith in Christ) were the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, then they would be works of merit. We are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Also see Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). You can't have it both ways.

The hearing and following are obedience to God, they are not works of merit.

Obedience which follows saving faith in Christ is works and we are not saved by works, but by grace through faith. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:10) You have it backwards and promote salvation by works of merit even though you deny it.

Christ gives (free gift) to those who are obedient hence obedience in hearing and following earn nothing but are necessary CONDITIONS to receive that free gift of eternal lief Christ GIVES.

More sugar-coated double talk. Again, you can't have it both ways. Ephesians 2:8,9 clearly points out how we receive the free gift of eternal life and it's NOT BY WORKS.

Jn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Obedience in laboring is necessary to have everlasting life that Christ GIVES....everlasting life is a free gift yet one must CONDITIONALLY work for the meat to receive the fre gift of everlasting life.

More eisegesis on your part. This is a play on words here by Jesus. Now keep reading, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," (vs. 28) when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" (vs. 29) So, Jesus was not saying that believing is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works or else it would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9. *Note the distinction between faith and works - "saved through faith, not works." Believing is clearly not a work that merits salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Through believing, Christ is the OBJECT of our complete trust in receiving salvation. Good works which "follow" believing unto salvation are the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. The words labor and work really tickle the ears of those who teach salvation by works.

Those Hebrews were Christians, called brethren (Heb 3:12)

The letter was addressed to Christians, (brethren) but that does not mean everyone in the group must be a genuine Christian. Hence, the warnings. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together in any large group of professing Christians whether in various churches or on various Christian forum sites.

described in Heb 6:4-5 as "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come"...they "have become partakers of Christ" (Heb 3:14).
"and have fallen" became apostates. Heb 3:12 one cannot depart from God if he was never of God.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive.

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some mental assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:39).

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13,14; 4:30)

The writer of Hebrews was certainly not writing to lost Hebrews but Hebrews who had converted to Christianity and were being warned about falling away from Christ by returning back to the OT law.

Not all of them were genuine Christians. See (Hebrews 3:8-12/Jude 1:5; 4:1-3; 10:39; 12:15)

Hence they were being warned of neglect of the word they had heard (Heb 2:1-4) falling into unbelief (Heb 3:12) not maturing as Christians as they should have (Heb 5:11-14) refusing God (Heb 12:25)

Unbelief being the final answer demonstrates that authentic belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start, just as we see in the parable of the sower. Also read about wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30) and about false brethren. (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4)

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Earnest T Bass said: Again, the context speaks of those had had become partakers of Christ and these "brethren" being warned about departing from God in unbelief. Clearly saved people who were partakers of Christ and of God but are being warned about departing from God. One cannot depart from God if he was never of God. From Heb 6 they were enlightened having left darkness (Col 1:13) tasted the heavenly gift (gift of salvation Rom 6:23), made partakers of the Holy Ghost (Heb 3:1,14 partakers of Christ and heavenly calling), tasted the word of God

As I already thoroughly explained, in regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. So, your argument is inconclusive.

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or have "received the Spirit's pledge which is the guarantee of future inheritance." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13,14; 4:30)

Verse 9 ultimately sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and permanently falling away permanently do not accompany salvation.

Again, the 'never really saved" argument renders the words "fall" and "apostate" meaningless.

Not at all. Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. An apostate is a person who once claimed to be a Christian but has irreversibly abandoned and renounced Christianity. This does not mean such a person was truly born again. The "lost salvation" argument renders Psalm 37:28 meaningless - For the LORD loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. It also renders John 10:27-28 meaningless - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. It also renders Romans 8:30 meaningless - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty. It also renders Ephesians 1:13-14 meaningless - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

These words show one who has moved away from a prior standing....moved from a saved standing to a lost one for a fallen person cannot fall for he is already fallen.

That prior standing does not unequivocally prove that person was previously saved. Judas Iscariot moved away from his prior standing, but was never saved. Now show me the words "lost salvation" in scripture or UN-saved or UN-sealed by the Holy Spirit or UN-regenerated. You don't even believe the gospel in the first place, so your arguments are misguided.

If those antichrist John was speaking about were always lost, then they cannot apostatize and fall from a saved position they never were in. Therefore all the verse would prove is a never saved person was never saved, it does not prove a saved person cannot ever fall away. If falling away is impossible then why give warnings to true Christians in 1 Jn 2:15-17?

If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. - Not descriptive of a saved person. But he who does the will of God abides forever. - Descriptive of a saved person. John concludes about antichrists here with 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. Let that sink in.

John warns those true Christians to whom he was writing "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." ""IF" they CONDITIONALLY let God's word remain in them they would continue in the Son. If they did not let that word remain in them they would not continue in the Son. Again, no need for such a warning if falling is impossible.

Although John is writing to Christians, this does not mean that everyone in the group is a true Christian, as we just saw in 1 John 2:19. In regard to 1 John 2:24, Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. Confirmation that one is a true Christian. If what you heard from the beginning does not abide in you it's because you are not a true Christian, just like Judas Iscariot.

John was speaking about certain individuals therefore you cannot make universal application as "proof" of the impossiblity of apostasy of any and all Christians for there are examples of those who were Christians that fell away (Heb 6 and 2 Pet 2).

I already thoroughly explained Hebrews 6:4-6 to you, but your bias won't allow you to consider this passage in context. Keep reading all the way to verse 9. In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God are partakers of the divine nature and have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.*

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Earnest T Bass said: Matt 10 is proof Judas was once saved, twice God is called the Father of Judas (vs 20, 29). Acts 1:25 Judas fell by transgression.....again an always fallen person cannot fall for he already is fallen. Judas fell from a saved standing to a lost standing by his transgressions.

Jesus was speaking to His 12 disciples in general, yet Judas was the exception, just like he was the exception in John 6:70, Jesus said - “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, AND YET ONE OF YOU IS A DEVIL?" Also in John 13:10-11, Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, BUT NOT ALL OF YOU.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “YOU ARE NOT ALL CLEAN."

In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition. (John 17:12)

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost.

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

John 13:18 - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

What does scripture say about Judas Iscariot?

Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil.....John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean......John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition.........John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus........John 17:12; 18:9
Judas was a traitor.....Luke 6:16
Judas was a betrayer.....Multiple verses.
Judas was a thief and did not care for the poor........John 12:6
Judas was guilty of a greater sin.......John 19:11
Judas was influenced by Satan to betray Jesus.......John 13:2
Judas was entered by Satan.......Luke 22:3
Judas kills himself......Matthew 27:5
Judas' habitation to be desolate......Acts 1:20, Psalm 69:25

I showed from both the OT and NT that being sealed and remaining sealed is CONDITIONAL upon continued obedience to God. No verse teaches being sealed is unconditional regardless of how the Christian lives.

Actually, you did not and I showed you that in contrast to this permanent indwelling in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Holy Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Holy Spirit “coming upon” these various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit did not permanently indwell them/seal them, but instead, came upon these individuals for specific tasks. So, while in the New Testament the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Holy Spirit came upon certain individuals in the Old Testament for a specific task and not to permanently seal them in Christ. Did any of this sink in at all?

No verse teaches that genuine born again Christians continuously live like the devil or become UN-sealed by the Holy Spirit and in contrast we read: Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. So your arguments (along with your straw man arguments) are moot.

I find it interesting that ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a major red flag for me. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal/pseudo" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together in scripture, in various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So how much obedience/works does it take to remain sealed? You clearly teach salvation by works.

Here is the core error of your belief system in that your are trying to substitute faith onlyism for what the Bible teaches about obedience.


---Obedience to Christ is how one is saved....Paul said in Rom 6:16 "obedience unto righteousness" hence no obedience to God leaves one UNRIGHTEOUS and lost for no verse teaches disobedience unto righteousness. No verse teaches God unconditionally saves/seals the person who continually lives in rebellion to Him. Obedience is how one goes about receiving grace.

---you refuse to acknowledge that obedience to God and works of merit are two completely different things. You have never, will never, show one example from the Bible where a person's obedience to God (as Noah obediently building the ark) is called a work of merit whereby that person earned God's favor thereby God owed that person for their obedience. This why being sealed under both the OT and NT laws was conditional upon obedience to God. This is why the Jews, who were God's chosen, yet were cast off for they did not obey (Rom 11) and the same for the congregation in Ephesus, Rev 2. The idea that God unconditionally seals and keeps sealed those that live in disobedience only exists in the imagination of faith onlyists.

---Christians are to strive to keep all of Christ's commands. Lk 13:24 Jesus did not say do no works to enter heaven but to strive and notice the striving is obeying Christ and it earns nothing, it does not earn one a way into heaven. And God does not require sinless perfection in keeping Christ's commands but a faithful obedience to those commands which includes repenting of sins when one falls short....and God will forgive those who repent.

---evidently you think those who live in rebellion to God are the ones God unconditionally seals/saves by the question you asked.

If one does not have to obey Christ on one thing and can still be sealed/saved anyway then one need not obey Christ on anything and can sill be sealed and such renders the NT irrelevant. Making the NT irrelevant by not accepting obedience as the means of reciving grace, faith onlyist are undermining the NT's delegated authority. Denominationalism is made up of divided groups because they cannot even agree with each other over the teachings of the Bible and the Bible condemns all of those sinful divisions. So what do they do? Try and undermine the Bible's teachings, undermine its delegated authority and substitute man made teachings, as faith onlyism, in the place of a 'thus sayeth the Lord".

The Bible clearly teaches obedience seals/saves.
You teach disobedience seals/saves.

Again, Paul said obedience UNTO righteousness and NOT one obeys because one has already unconditionally made righteous by faith only apart from obedience. That makes faith only itself disobedience. Since there are only two eternal out comes, condemnation or salvation and Paul puts those two outcomes forth in Rom 6:16...

1) serve sin unto death...condemnation
2) obedience unto rightoeusness....salvation

.....and since faith onlyism rejects the idea of obedience UNTO righteousness that has faith onlyism serving sin unto death...faith only disobedience to God's will.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Actually, you did not and I showed you that in contrast to this permanent indwelling in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Holy Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Holy Spirit “coming upon” these various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit did not permanently indwell them/seal them, but instead, came upon these individuals for specific tasks. So, while in the New Testament the Holy Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Holy Spirit came upon certain individuals in the Old Testament for a specific task and not to permanently seal them in Christ. Did any of this sink in at all?

No verse teaches that genuine born again Christians continuously live like the devil or become UN-sealed by the Holy Spirit and in contrast we read: Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. So your arguments (along with your straw man arguments) are moot.

I find it interesting that ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a major red flag for me. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal/pseudo" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together in scripture, in various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

Again, I showed from Rom 4:11 that circumcision was a seal and that seal would be broken (circumcision made uncircumcision) if the Jews would not obey (Rom 2:25). The Jews thought that since they were descendants of Abraham that meant unconditional, automatic salvation for them, that God must choose them and save them but salvation has NEVER in the OT or NT ever been unconditionally automatic no matter how a person lives. The Jews were God's chosen but lived in disobedience therefore cut off, cast away....

Rom 11:19ff
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

The Jews were God's chosen but they did not have OSAS as seen that they were cut off, cast off for unbelief/disbedience.

Logically, the Jews could not be broken off from the tree if they were never part of the tree. If they abide not in unbelief, that is, if they turn and obey God they would be graffed in again. Logically, no need to be graffed in again if it were impossible to ever be broken off!!

Note the warning to the Gentiles v22. Gentiles were not God's people under the OT but under the NT they were graffed in due to their obedience to God. Yet warned they would REMAIN graffed in, remained sealed "if (A CONDITION) thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." If they continue to CONDITIONALLY obey they remained sealed, graffed in but if the Gentiles turn and disobey in unbelief as the Jews "thou shalt be cut off" totally refuting OSAS and salvation being unconditional for either the Jews or Gentiles. If OSAS is true, then Rom 11:19-23 with the cutting off and grafting in again makes no sense whatsoever!!!