What is "Parousia"?

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus is contrasting his parousia with the days of Noah. It (the flood) came unaware and swept them all away except for Noah and his family. So tell me Jane, as a JW, you believe (or should believe) that Jesus' parousia began in 1914. If that is true, who has been "swept away"?

Peter gave us a clue here.....he called Noah "a preacher of righteousness" which means that the flood did not strike the people "unaware"...it struck them 'unprepared', because they dismissed his preaching and ignored his warning.
2 Peter 2:5-6...
"Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment. 5 And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people. 6 And by reducing the cities of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah to ashes, he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly people of things to come."

Do you not think the people knew why Noah was building such a large structure in the middle of a cleared field?
Do you think he never told them what he was building and why? Why did they ridicule him and ignore him?
What did Peter say about "the last days" of this present world system?

2 Peter 3:3-7....
"First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people."

Peter also spoke of Jesus when he 'preached to the spirits in prison'......'when God was waiting patiently in Noah's day while the ark was being constructed'.....look how he connected the waters of our baptism to the time period when Noah was constructing the ark.....when he and his family would be rescued through the water.

"He [Jesus] was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 22 He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."

We are in a similar period now while God is waiting to command Jesus to end another "world" of wickedness.
It is this world that is going to end....and the Kingdom ("the new heavens") will then rule the "new earth" of redeemed ones. (2 Peter 3:13)
During the 1,000 years of the Kingdom's rule, the survivors of Armageddon will educate the resurrected ones in God's ways, and all humanity will be brought back to the sinless condition that Adam and his wife once enjoyed.

So you have "the elect" and "those who believe as they do." I assume they are not "elect." So, you believe there are two distinct classes or believers currently on the earth, "Elect" and the "non-Elect"? Can you show me from scriptures where it teaches two classes of Christians being developed now? Thanks.

Go back to Matthew 25:31-33, where Jesus spoke of the "sheep and the goats".
“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

The arrival is part of the "parousia".....this is when Jesus begins his reign. When the "sign" he gave was fulfilled. (Matt 24:3-14)
It is when the separating begins, and is carried out all through "the last days" so that this judgment period corresponds with the days of Noah.
It is because the people "take no notice" that they are denied access to the kingdom. It is not that they received no notice......but like the days of Noah, the messengers are not taken seriously and so are ignored.

Jesus says to the sheep....."‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’"
So, what did he say about the sheep that qualified them for life? They supported his "brothers"....so these supporters were not Christ's "brothers" themselves.
He says to the goats...."‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."

The "goats" fail to render assistance to Christ's "brothers" and would forfeit life, being sent to the place "reserved" for the devil and his hordes. So who are Christ’s "brothers"...? They are "sons of God" by "adoption", which makes them "brothers" of Christ....his elect. (Romans 8:15; Gal 4:1-7)

Well, we agree on this, except for one word you used, "final". While I agree that it will be THE FINAL TEST, it is THE ONLY TEST mankind will experienced. As all through this Gospel Age, since the formation of the Church, THE ELECT, they are the ONLY ones being tried and tested. These are the only ones God is dealing with, as members of the Body of Christ. When this body is complete, then, and only then, will the Lord deal with the world of mankind. That is what the Kingdom reign is for. Mankind will be taught the ways of the Lord. They will learn what the Heavenly Father has done for them through Christ Jesus via the ransom.

There are two judgments...one for this world, and one at the end of the thousand years in the new world......only then will God grant everlasting life to the ones who remained faithful.
Rev 20:4...
"And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years."

This is the elect....the ones who, at the end of this present world system, have not received the mark of the beast or its image, and who are taken to heaven (came to life) by being transformed "in the twinkling of an eye" to join their brothers who are already there. They were resurrected when Christ came to power....when his "parousia" began. These last remaining ones are resurrected at the end of the last days.

John goes on to say....."(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.")

Only after the final test at the end of the thousand years will the dead "come to life" in the way God first intended....to live forever in paradise on this earth.

It is during this period that the sheep from the goats are separated.

And THIS is what makes sense to me!

I believe you have the timing wrong.....as the scriptures explain. But you are entitled to believe as you wish.

 

[bbyrd009]

Parousia means presence.

word

just the wrong crowd i guess

 

[Biblethumper]

Jesus was talking to his second coming here, the Rapture (the mystery that the Gentiles were co heirs ) was only revealed to Paul since he was the apostle to the Gentiles

 

[RR144]

I believe you have the timing wrong.....as the scriptures explain. But you are entitled to believe as you wish.

All that, and you never answered my question, but thank you for trying.

 

[Aunty Jane]

All that, and you never answered my question,

I allowed the scriptures to answer you.....guess you missed it.... please read the scriptures again and see what they say.....

There is also Rev 7:4, 9-10; 13-14.....where two groups are seen......144,000 standing on Mt Zion (Heb 12:22...“Heavenly Jerusalem”) with the Lamb, chosen from among mankind as “firstfruits” (Rev 14:1-5).......so another “crop” was expected, and they are identified as “coming out of the great tribulation”, (Rev 7:13-14) which occurs at the end of this world system, when Jesus comes to make his judgments. So there are those of the elect, as well as those who will be their subjects on earth who are not of the elect. They come out of the great tribulation, which occurs on earth. They are the survivors of that world’s end, just as Noah’s family were at the end of theirs. (Matt 24:37-39) These survivors are not heaven bound.

Paul also indicated two groups in 1 Cor 1:2...
“to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours”.

So there they are...the two groups hiding in plain sight. “Their Lord and ours”.....Jesus is “Lord” of both groups.

but thank you for trying.

Thank you for not reading my reply....or was it a comprehension problem?

 

[David in NJ]

​

Parousia means presence. (See 2 Corinthians 10:10; Philippians 2:12.) Sadly, most Bible translators have injected their theological, doctrinal biases into their translations and have used the word “coming” for parousia. However, Thayer’s Greek Lexicon of the Bible accurately gives the definition as “presence” or “arrival.” Additionally, Professor Robert Young in Young's Literal Translation of the Bible also preserves the meaning of parousia as presence. An example of the integrity of Young’s translation is in Matthew 24:3 (YLT), “And when he (Jesus) is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, ‘Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence (parousia), and of the full end of the age?’”

In His answer, our Lord then goes into detail telling his disciples what events should transpire and were yet to happen so that they would know when Jesus had returned. Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.” (Matthew 24:42 NKJV) Remember, Jesus returns as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 (NKJV), “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.” A thief does not announce his presence!

Having a proper understanding of parousia can greatly alter the thought of the manner and object of the Second Advent of Christ. Our Lord was preparing the disciples to recognize that a length of time was going to intervene between his first and second advents, and that they should be watchful for all that would transpire.

This means that our Lord would be present, and there would be many who would not know it. How can this be? Wouldn’t every Christian recognize the Lord? No. Some Christians are either not watching and therefore, do know not what “time” it is, or they are looking for the wrong thing.
Jesus said, “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.” John 14:19 (NKJV) How do we harmonize this with Revelation 1:7 (NKJV), “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him (see Zechariah 12:10). And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him”?

Revelation 1:7 is not talking about our literal eyes. It means the world will recognize Christ’s presence by the establishment of His righteous kingdom on Earth. (Zechariah 14:3.) All will be resurrected. (John 5:28-29) Additionally, “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.” (Isaiah 11:9 NKJV) Mankind will be restored to perfect health. (Isaiah 35:4-10)

Eventually, every eye shall discern Him and know that the Lord is present!

You said: "Revelation 1:7 is not talking about our literal eyes. It means the world will recognize Christ’s presence by the establishment of His righteous kingdom on Earth."

You are interjecting your own words on Revelation and this is not a good thing to do.

Scripture is harmonious in Truth.

Indeed, we shall literally see Him coming on the clouds with our literal eyes - Matt ch24 and Acts 1:9-11

After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky?
This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven,
will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus was talking to his second coming here, the Rapture (the mystery that the Gentiles were co heirs ) was only revealed to Paul since he was the apostle to the Gentiles

This is not scripturally accurate.

The Gentiles being included in the Commonwealth of Israel was first spoken by God in the OT = Genesis and the Prophets

How it was to manifest itself, they did not know and/or fully understand.

Once Paul was saved and filled with the Holy Spirit it was revealed to him thru the OT Scriptures beginning in Genesis.

The Rapture is NOT a Gentile thing, as you supposed it, and have been taught by man.

The Rapture is a JEW & GENTILE in Christ gathering at the Second Coming of the LORD = 1 Thess & 2 Thess

The Rapture will not precede the Second Coming of Christ and the Resurrection of the dead in Christ = 1 Thess 4:13-18

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is not scripturally accurate.

Actually there is no word for the transformation of the last of the elect when they are 'taken' at the end of these last days.
"Rapture" is not scripturally accurate either, although we understand what it means, the question is, who are taken to heaven and who aren't?
What is the role of the elect, and why aren't all Christians taken to heaven?

The Gentiles being included in the Commonwealth of Israel was first spoken by God in the OT = Genesis and the Prophets

How it was to manifest itself, they did not know and/or fully understand.

Gentiles were part of God's plan all along....he chose Israel simply because he needed to give his son an earthly lineage to prove who he was.
Abraham was a man uniquely called "Jehovah's friend" because of his faith and because of his obedience when called upon to offer his son to God in sacrifice, without knowing why, he readily complied and was prepared to do so, but God was testing him and he passed with flying colors.
Gen 22:9-12, 17-18...
"Finally they reached the place that the true God had indicated to him, and Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac hand and foot and put him on the altar on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to kill his son. 11 But Jehovah’s angel called to him from the heavens and said: “Abraham, Abraham!” to which he answered: “Here I am!” 12 Then he said: “Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”. . . . .
I will surely bless you and I will surely multiply your offspring like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand on the seashore, and your offspring will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”

You see that "all the nations of the earth" were going to be blessed by the actions of the promised seed to come. Israel were only the physical means to bring this seed into the world...they were not chosen because they were more special than any other nation as far as their conduct was concerned, because at times God had to punish them most severely for their unfaithfulness.
In fact, once God had fulfilled his obligation to produce his Messiah, and his people rejected him and had him executed, God abandoned them to the world. (Matthew 23:37-39) Fleshly Israel overestimated God's patience and his tolerance of their disrespect for his sovereign will and purpose. They placed their lineage above their conduct, but John the Baptist told them straight....
"When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

When the axe fell, God then raised up "children for Abraham" from the Gentiles. These became "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16)...a spiritual nation, rather than a fleshly one,....comprised of both faithful Jews and Gentiles.

Once Paul was saved and filled with the Holy Spirit it was revealed to him thru the OT Scriptures beginning in Genesis.

The Rapture is NOT a Gentile thing, as you supposed it, and have been taught by man.

The Rapture is a JEW & GENTILE in Christ gathering at the Second Coming of the LORD = 1 Thess & 2 Thess

This is accurate.....the taking of the last of the elect to heaven was not to take place until Christ's return. Paul said that they would "sleep" in death until that time came. Jesus would then call all the elect out of their graves during his "parousia" so that all would be present with him at the end of the judgment period, ready to take over rulership of this world, and out of the hands of the devil. (Rev 20:1-6)

The Rapture will not precede the Second Coming of Christ and the Resurrection of the dead in Christ = 1 Thess 4:13-18

The "rapture" as you call it, is the final taking of the elect from the earth...those who have no need to "sleep" in death....they will then all take up their positions as "kings and priests" in heaven (Rev 20:6) and begin ruling the "new earth"...this time with no interference from the devil.

 

[David in NJ]

Actually there is no word for the transformation of the last of the elect when they are 'taken' at the end of these last days.
"Rapture" is not scripturally accurate either, although we understand what it means, the question is, who are taken to heaven and who aren't?
What is the role of the elect, and why aren't all Christians taken to heaven?

Gentiles were part of God's plan all along....he chose Israel simply because he needed to give his son an earthly lineage to prove who he was.
Abraham was a man uniquely called "Jehovah's friend" because of his faith and because of his obedience when called upon to offer his son to God in sacrifice, without knowing why, he readily complied and was prepared to do so, but God was testing him and he passed with flying colors.
Gen 22:9-12, 17-18...
"Finally they reached the place that the true God had indicated to him, and Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac hand and foot and put him on the altar on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to kill his son. 11 But Jehovah’s angel called to him from the heavens and said: “Abraham, Abraham!” to which he answered: “Here I am!” 12 Then he said: “Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”. . . . .
I will surely bless you and I will surely multiply your offspring like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand on the seashore, and your offspring will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”

You see that "all the nations of the earth" were going to be blessed by the actions of the promised seed to come. Israel were only the physical means to bring this seed into the world...they were not chosen because they were more special than any other nation as far as their conduct was concerned, because at times God had to punish them most severely for their unfaithfulness.
In fact, once God had fulfilled his obligation to produce his Messiah, and his people rejected him and had him executed, God abandoned them to the world. (Matthew 23:37-39) Fleshly Israel overestimated God's patience and his tolerance of their disrespect for his sovereign will and purpose. They placed their lineage above their conduct, but John the Baptist told them straight....
"When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

When the axe fell, God then raised up "children for Abraham" from the Gentiles. These became "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16)...a spiritual nation, rather than a fleshly one,....comprised of both faithful Jews and Gentiles.

This is accurate.....the taking of the last of the elect to heaven was not to take place until Christ's return. Paul said that they would "sleep" in death until that time came. Jesus would then call all the elect out of their graves during his "parousia" so that all would be present with him at the end of the judgment period, ready to take over rulership of this world, and out of the hands of the devil. (Rev 20"1-5)

The "rapture" as you call it, is the final taking of the elect from the earth...those who have no need to "sleep" in death....they will then all take up their positions as "kings and priests" in heaven (Rev 20:6) and begin ruling the "new earth"...this time with no interference from the devil.

my Aunty Jane,
How are you - it's been some time since we last spoke.

i'm hungry for a good dinner, so would you like to SEE the OT Prophecy of the "Transformation of the Saints".......

Some Good Old OT mystery revealed for us to SEE........

 

[RR144]

You said: "Revelation 1:7 is not talking about our literal eyes. It means the world will recognize Christ’s presence by the establishment of His righteous kingdom on Earth."

You are interjecting your own words on Revelation and this is not a good thing to do.

If you look up the word "see" in an interlinear Bible in Rev. 1:7, you'll see that one of the definitions is :

• "to see with the mind, to perceive, know". - Thayers
• to discern clearly (physically or mentally) - Strongs

So, no, I'm not interjecting my own words.

Scripture is harmonious in Truth.

Indeed, we shall literally see Him coming on the clouds with our literal eyes - Matt ch24 and Acts 1:9-11

After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky?
This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven,
will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

As to Acts, the word for "eye" one of the definitions is: "The minds eye"

 

[David in NJ]

Yes

If you look up the word "see" in an interlinear Bible in Rev. 1:7, you'll see that one of the definitions is :

• "to see with the mind, to perceive, know". - Thayers
• to discern clearly (physically or mentally) - Strongs

So, no, I'm not interjecting my own words.

As to Acts, the words for "eye" one of the definitions is: "The minds eye"

Yes you are for the scripture is very clear = they are seeing with their natural eyes which, in case you have fortgotten, feeds the mind.

This is literal and not allegorical, symbolic, mystical or interpretive.

After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.
They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky?
This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven,
will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

To even suggest a more spiritual "knowing" here opposes clear scripture Truth = physical 1st & 2nd Comings of the LORD.

Be very careful as many a false teaching comes from overtly denying the actual that pertains to His Bodily Appearing.

Peace and Blessing to you in the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[RR144]

There is also Rev 7:4, 9-10; 13-14.....where two groups are seen......144,000 standing on Mt Zion (Heb 12:22...“Heavenly Jerusalem”) with the Lamb, chosen from among mankind as “firstfruits” (Rev 14:1-5).......so another “crop” was expected, and they are identified as “coming out of the great tribulation”, (Rev 7:13-14) which occurs at the end of this world system, when Jesus comes to make his judgments. So there are those of the elect, as well as those who will be their subjects on earth who are not of the elect. They come out of the great tribulation, which occurs on earth. They are the survivors of that world’s end, just as Noah’s family were at the end of theirs. (Matt 24:37-39) These survivors are not heaven bound.

Paul also indicated two groups in 1 Cor 1:2...
“to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours”.

So there they are...the two groups hiding in plain sight. “Their Lord and ours”.....Jesus is “Lord” of both groups.

You are mixing scriptures. You know all of the wonderful Jehovah’s Witnesses that have come to my door have expressed no desire for a heavenly hope. Their desire is to be on Paradise Earth forever. And what could be wrong with good food, a nice house, domesticated wild animals and beautiful scenery?

The problem is the difficulty in making a scriptural case for an earthly hope. Yes the Bible clearly teaches about the earthly kingdom, but for the Christian, the Bible only speaks of a heavenly hope as in the scriptures that follow:

​

Philippians 3:20 “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;” (NASV)​

Colossians 1:5 “the hope that is being reserved for YOU in the heavens. (NWT)​

​

Hebrews 3:1 “Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess-Jesus.” (NWT)​

​

Matthew 5:12 “Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.” (NWT)​

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Luke 6:22-23 (NKJV) “22 Blessed are you when men hate you, And when they exclude you, And revile you, and cast out your name as evil, For the Son of Man’s sake. 23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven…”​

​

2 Corinthians 5:1-2 “1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens. 2 For in this dwelling house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven,” (NWT)​

​

Hebrews 6:19-20 (NASV) “19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”​

​

1 Corinthians 15:42-45 (KJV) “So also is the resurrection of the dead… It is sown a natural body [death]; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus] was made a quickening spirit.”​

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1 Corinthians 15:49 (NASV) “Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.”​

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John 14:2-3 “2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be.” (NWT)​

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1 John 3:2 (NKJV) “Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”​

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Philippians 3:14 (NKJV) “I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward <Strong’s 507> call of God in Christ Jesus.”​

​

[Upward Call is to HEAVEN. Compare Colossians 3:1 (NKJV) If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above <507>, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.” Also compare: John 8:23 (NKJV) “And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above <507>. You are of this world; I am not of this world.”

​

Daniel 12:3 (NASV) “Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.”​

None of these scriptures indicate any other hope for the Christian than the heavenly hope. As a matter of fact, Eph 4:4 says, “One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called” (Eph 4:4 NWT). So for the Christian there is only one hope; the heavenly hope. Throughout the book of Acts, whenever anyone is baptized, nobody is ever given the option of whether they want to choose an earthly or a heavenly reward.

Even the Great Crowd are said to be in Heaven in Rev 19:1 which says, “After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven.” (NWT) The Greek words translated great crowd is exactly the same as in Rev 7:9.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are mixing scriptures. You know all of the wonderful Jehovah’s Witnesses that have come to my door have expressed no desire for a heavenly hope. Their desire is to be on Paradise Earth forever. And what could be wrong with good food, a nice house, domesticated wild animals and beautiful scenery?

The problem is the difficulty in making a scriptural case for an earthly hope. Yes the Bible clearly teaches about the earthly kingdom,

I have been studying the scriptures very carefully for the past 50 years and I have come to see that the Bible explains itself....if you let it.

The Bible is one story with one author and one agenda......to tell us how God will "undo the works of the devil".
1 John 3:8...
"The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil."

So how did he plan to do that?
We have a beginning, a middle, and an end to the Bible's narrative concerning the fall in Eden. We can see what happened, and why it happened....and why God did not immediately eliminate the rebels from existence, and simply start again.

His wisdom in the way he responded to the disobedience of, not only his earthly children, but also his angelic sons, is masterful.
How God handled this situation would have eternal consequences for all of us.....it would resonate down through time as something we would never wish to happen again. The greatest object lesson in history concerning the abuse of free will.

That beginning, after the fall, is then tackled by the middle where the first prophesy in Genesis 3:15 comes into the picture. It remained a mystery for many centuries but with the coming of the promised 'seed of Abraham', the identity of the players in that first prophesy became clear.....
Addressing the serpent, (later identified as Satan the devil) Jehovah said....
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”

So who is the "woman"? She is not Eve, nor any human woman but a figurative one who is prophetically called "the Jerusalem above and she is our mother". (Gal 4:26) The serpent is the spirit creature Satan, and no imperfect human offspring of Eve’s would have the ability to crush him. Something more was needed.
She is the mother of "the male child" whom she produces.....the one sent to crush satan's head, and to undo all the damage he has caused.

So we have two opposing factions....God and his 'offspring' and the devil and his 'offspring', both of whom manifest as both humans and spirit creatures. The Kingdom is the means whereby God re-establishes his rule over mankind.....and the King of this Kingdom is the one who will crush satan's head after his recovery from the "heel" wound.....killed by satan's agents but whose recovery was facilitated by his resurrection. With his human life and blood, he redeemed mankind from the sin inherited from Adam...and laid the foundations of his Kingdom in his apostles, who were to carry on his work after his return to heaven.....and they had one very special guarantee.....that he would be "with them all the days until the end of the age". (Matt 28:19-20)

With Christ directing the work he assigned to his disciples, it would go ahead despite the opposition that they were sure to encounter. (John 15:18-21) Like Christ's first century disciples, being different to the mainstream is a challenge. It would even pit family members against one another. (Matthew 10:34-38)

An earthly hope is all God ever gave to mankind right from the beginning. There was no "going to heaven" for the Jews because they were taught that the Kingdom would rule the earth. It wasn't until Christ ascended to heaven that the holy spirit came upon the disciples and implanted in them, an inordinate desire to go to heaven.....so they then understood what he meant when he said he was "going to prepare a place for them".
Even as he was ascending to heaven they still had no idea that they were going there too.
Acts 1:6....
"So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”
This was the Jewish expectation....the Kingdom would restore the Jews to their rightful place. But that was not to be. The Jews were serial covenant breakers, so God kept them in existence only until his purpose in connection with them was fulfilled....then after they murdered their own Messiah, he "abandoned" them to their own devices. (Matt 23:37-39)

 

[Aunty Jane]

but for the Christian, the Bible only speaks of a heavenly hope as in the scriptures that follow:

​

Philippians 3:20 “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;” (NASV)​

Colossians 1:5 “the hope that is being reserved for YOU in the heavens. (NWT)​

​

Hebrews 3:1 “Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess-Jesus.” (NWT)​

​

Matthew 5:12 “Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.” (NWT)​

​

Luke 6:22-23 (NKJV) “22 Blessed are you when men hate you, And when they exclude you, And revile you, and cast out your name as evil, For the Son of Man’s sake. 23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven…”​

​

2 Corinthians 5:1-2 “1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens. 2 For in this dwelling house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven,” (NWT)​

​

Hebrews 6:19-20 (NASV) “19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”​

​

1 Corinthians 15:42-45 (KJV) “So also is the resurrection of the dead… It is sown a natural body [death]; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus] was made a quickening spirit.”​

​

1 Corinthians 15:49 (NASV) “Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.”​

​

John 14:2-3 “2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be.” (NWT)​

​

1 John 3:2 (NKJV) “Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”​

​

Philippians 3:14 (NKJV) “I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward <Strong’s 507> call of God in Christ Jesus.”​

​

[Upward Call is to HEAVEN. Compare Colossians 3:1 (NKJV) If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above <507>, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.” Also compare: John 8:23 (NKJV) “And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above <507>. You are of this world; I am not of this world.”

​

Daniel 12:3 (NASV) “Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.”​

None of these scriptures indicate any other hope for the Christian than the heavenly hope. As a matter of fact, Eph 4:4 says, “One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called” (Eph 4:4 NWT). So for the Christian there is only one hope; the heavenly hope. Throughout the book of Acts, whenever anyone is baptized, nobody is ever given the option of whether they want to choose an earthly or a heavenly reward.

Does it ever occur to you that the gathering of the elect began in the first century and that the majority of those who became "Christians" at that time, did so with much opposition, many proving "faithful unto death", so these are the words of the elect, to the elect.....these would have been in the majority back then.....but fast forward to the "last days" and the majority of Christians are no longer of the elect but will have the same destiny as all who lived and died before Jesus opened the way to heaven with the sacrifice of his own flesh and blood.

Why did God put us here on the earth if he was only going to take us to heaven? He already has a large family of spirit sons in heaven, none of whom required 'training' here on earth.

'All Christians going to heaven' is not scriptural, and makes no sense.....since they are to be "kings and priests", (Rev 20:6) for whom do they perform these services? Priests are there for the benefit of sinners.....and there are no sinners in heaven.

Even the Great Crowd are said to be in Heaven in Rev 19:1 which says, “After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven.” (NWT) The Greek words translated great crowd is exactly the same as in Rev 7:9.

There is also a" great crowd" of spirit sons in heaven who are not of the elect and who welcome the King and his associate rulers. These are in heaven, whereas the "great crowd" that John sees is standing before the throne of God (as Israel did when they were his people on earth, when earthly kings were said to sit on Jehovah's throne). With his appointed representative guiding them, these are said to "come out of the great tribulation"....the survivors of that calamity who will become the nucleus of the "new earth" where "righteousness is to dwell". (2 Pet 3:13)

Why do us humans need to go to heaven when we can enjoy what God created right here? He prepared the earth so carefully, and all the things he made were not for himself, but for us to enjoy forever. We were put here to take care of all of it so that in his absence, he could perhaps get on with whatever plans he has for the rest of his vast universe.......we are such a tiny speck, it makes sense that he would iron out all the 'bugs' here first, and address all contingencies before branching out to populate other parts of the galaxies....who knows what he has in mind for the millenniums ahead?

It will be fascinating to find out....

 

[David in NJ]

Au

I have been studying the scriptures very carefully for the past 50 years and I have come to see that the Bible explains itself....if you let it.

The Bible is one story with one author and one agenda......to tell us how God will "undo the works of the devil".
1 John 3:8...
"The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil."

So how did he plan to do that?
We have a beginning, a middle, and an end to the Bible's narrative concerning the fall in Eden. We can see what happened, and why it happened....and why God did not immediately eliminate the rebels from existence, and simply start again.

His wisdom in the way he responded to the disobedience of, not only his earthly children, but also his angelic sons, is masterful.
How God handled this situation would have eternal consequences for all of us.....it would resonate down through time as something we would never wish to happen again. The greatest object lesson in history concerning the abuse of free will.

That beginning, after the fall, is then tackled by the middle where the first prophesy in Genesis 3:15 comes into the picture. It remained a mystery for many centuries but with the coming of the promised 'seed of Abraham', the identity of the players in that first prophesy became clear.....
Addressing the serpent, (later identified as Satan the devil) Jehovah said....
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”

So who is the "woman"? She is not Eve, nor any human woman but a figurative one who is prophetically called "the Jerusalem above and she is our mother". (Gal 4:26) The serpent is the spirit creature Satan, and no imperfect human offspring of Eve’s would have the ability to crush him. Something more was needed.
She is the mother of "the male child" whom she produces.....the one sent to crush satan's head, and to undo all the damage he has caused.

So we have two opposing factions....God and his 'offspring' and the devil and his 'offspring', both of whom manifest as both humans and spirit creatures. The Kingdom is the means whereby God re-establishes his rule over mankind.....and the King of this Kingdom is the one who will crush satan's head after his recovery from the "heel" wound.....killed by satan's agents but whose recovery was facilitated by his resurrection. With his human life and blood, he redeemed mankind from the sin inherited from Adam...and laid the foundations of his Kingdom in his apostles, who were to carry on his work after his return to heaven.....and they had one very special guarantee.....that he would be "with them all the days until the end of the age". (Matt 28:19-20)

With Christ directing the work he assigned to his disciples, it would go ahead despite the opposition that they were sure to encounter. (John 15:18-21) Like Christ's first century disciples, being different to the mainstream is a challenge. It would even pit family members against one another. (Matthew 10:34-38)

An earthly hope is all God ever gave to mankind right from the beginning. There was no "going to heaven" for the Jews because they were taught that the Kingdom would rule the earth. It wasn't until Christ ascended to heaven that the holy spirit came upon the disciples and implanted in them, an inordinate desire to go to heaven.....so they then understood what he meant when he said he was "going to prepare a place for them".
Even as he was ascending to heaven they still had no idea that they were going there too.
Acts 1:6....
"So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”
This was the Jewish expectation....the Kingdom would restore the Jews to their rightful place. But that was not to be. The Jews were serial covenant breakers, so God kept them in existence only until his purpose in connection with them was fulfilled....then after they murdered their own Messiah, he "abandoned" them to their own devices. (Matt 23:37-39)

Aunty you said: "An earthly hope is all God ever gave to mankind right from the beginning. There was no "going to heaven" for the Jews"
This is not true what you said Aunty.

What Jesus said however is True

Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty you said: "An earthly hope is all God ever gave to mankind right from the beginning. There was no "going to heaven" for the Jews"
This is not true what you said Aunty.

Thank you for the opportunity to explain....

Go to Genesis and tell me where in the creation account God ever mentioned going to heaven or hell.....I'll save you the time....there was no such mention. All that was put before mankind was either "life or death". Adam's choices never meant anything else. (Gen 2:16-17)

The Jews had no belief in an immortal soul....that was introduced later from platonic Greek influence. So for God's nation, there was no immediate life after death.....a restoration of life would come via a resurrection.
Immortality of the soul makes the teaching of the resurrection redundant, since you cannot resurrect what is not dead.

Gen 3:19...God said to Adam...
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
There is no mention of going to heaven or hell because humankind were designed to live forever on earth. (Gen 3:22-24)

The Jews also had this option given to them.

Deut 19:15-19...
“See, I do put before you today life and good, and death and bad. 16 If you listen to the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding you today, by loving Jehovah your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his judicial decisions, then you will live and multiply, and Jehovah your God will bless you in the land you are going to possess.

17 “But if your heart turns away and you do not listen and you are enticed and bow down to other gods and serve them, 18 I tell you today that you will certainly perish. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess. 19 I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants...."

We all know how that turned out....Israel could never quite manage to obey their God and keep his laws.....so, from the beginning, we have only ever had two choices....obey God and live...disobey God and die. That's it.

What Jesus said however is True

Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

If you read this from the Jewish perspective, and not from Christendom's viewpoint, Jesus is teaching that those resurrected to life either in heaven or on earth will not marry. This coincides with the statements Jesus made concerning what ends a marriage. Do you remember that this was the answer Jesus gave to the Sadducees (who did not believe in the resurrection) who had tried to trip Jesus up by giving him the example of the seven brothers? (Mark 12:18-27)
Since death ends a marriage and frees one to remarry, imagine the chaos if one had remarried after the death of one or more spouses?
If the resurrected ones do not marry, then they will belong to no one as a mate, and there will be no animosity. The love they feel for their former spouse(s) will be an entirely different kind of love....Christ-like. They will not be married but they will still have their children.

When Moses spoke of Jehovah as the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", he was not saying that they were still alive somewhere, because they were long gone, and the Jewish belief was in a resurrection, not immortality of the soul.
John said that no one had gone to heaven before Jesus, (John 3:13) so that means that Abraham Isaac and Jacob were still "sleeping" awaiting their resurrection in Jesus' day. But his close relationship with these men to whom the promise was made concerning the coming Messiah, it was as though they were 'sleeping' in the next room...he could awaken them as easily as Jesus had demonstrated with those that he resurrected.....he brought them back to life with a few words. (John 11:11-14)

As Luke 20:37-38 says...."But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”

Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture.....
Solomon wrote....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going."

So Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still "sleeping" as are all who await the resurrection, no matter if they have slept a few days or a few thousand years....they are not conscious, so there is no hurry to bring about the desired outcome from God's perspective. He has eternity up his sleeve and can fulfill his purpose, no matter how long it takes. Death is meaningless to a God who can awaken the dead with a few words.

 

[David in NJ]

Thank you for the opportunity to explain....

Go to Genesis and tell me where in the creation account God ever mentioned going to heaven or hell.....I'll save you the time....there was no such mention. All that was put before mankind was either "life or death". Adam's choices never meant anything else. (Gen 2:16-17)

The Jews had no belief in an immortal soul....that was introduced later from platonic Greek influence. So for God's nation, there was no immediate life after death.....a restoration of life would come via a resurrection.
Immortality of the soul makes the teaching of the resurrection redundant, since you cannot resurrect what is not dead.

Gen 3:19...God said to Adam...
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
There is no mention of going to heaven or hell because humankind were designed to live forever on earth. (Gen 3:22-24)

The Jews also had this option given to them.

Deut 19:15-19...
“See, I do put before you today life and good, and death and bad. 16 If you listen to the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding you today, by loving Jehovah your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his judicial decisions, then you will live and multiply, and Jehovah your God will bless you in the land you are going to possess.

17 “But if your heart turns away and you do not listen and you are enticed and bow down to other gods and serve them, 18 I tell you today that you will certainly perish. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess. 19 I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants...."

We all know how that turned out....Israel could never quite manage to obey their God and keep his laws.....so, from the beginning, we have only ever had two choices....obey God and live...disobey God and die. That's it.

If you read this from the Jewish perspective, and not from Christendom's viewpoint, Jesus is teaching that those resurrected to life either in heaven or on earth will not marry. This coincides with the statements Jesus made concerning what ends a marriage. Do you remember that this was the answer Jesus gave to the Sadducees (who did not believe in the resurrection) who had tried to trip Jesus up by giving him the example of the seven brothers? (Mark 12:18-27)
Since death ends a marriage and frees one to remarry, imagine the chaos if one had remarried after the death of one or more spouses?
If the resurrected ones do not marry, then they will belong to no one as a mate, and there will be no animosity. The love they feel for their former spouse(s) will be an entirely different kind of love....Christ-like. They will not be married but they will still have their children.

When Moses spoke of Jehovah as the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", he was not saying that they were still alive somewhere, because they were long gone, and the Jewish belief was in a resurrection, not immortality of the soul.
John said that no one had gone to heaven before Jesus, (John 3:13) so that means that Abraham Isaac and Jacob were still "sleeping" awaiting their resurrection in Jesus' day. But his close relationship with these men to whom the promise was made concerning the coming Messiah, it was as though they were 'sleeping' in the next room...he could awaken them as easily as Jesus had demonstrated with those that he resurrected.....he brought them back to life with a few words. (John 11:11-14)

As Luke 20:37-38 says...."But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”

Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture.....
Solomon wrote....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going."

So Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still "sleeping" as are all who await the resurrection, no matter if they have slept a few days or a few thousand years....they are not conscious, so there is no hurry to bring about the desired outcome from God's perspective. He has eternity up his sleeve and can fulfill his purpose, no matter how long it takes. Death is meaningless to a God who can awaken the dead with a few words.

Aunty Jane, this is crazy stuff you say here = "Go to Genesis and tell me where in the creation account God ever mentioned going to heaven or hell.....I'll save you the time....there was no such mention. All that was put before mankind was either "life or death". Adam's choices never meant anything else."

You gave me a good laugh and here is why:

The Eternal Living Elohim created Adam & Eve to walk with HIM, to know HIM so that man could enter into HIS Eternal Glory.

This FACT is brought out clearly in Genesis for God said to Adam - "in the day you eat of it you will die".
But Adam did not die the day he and his wife ate the forbidden fruit.

As a matter of FACT, Adam lived for 930 Years AFTER he ate the forbidden fruit.

So what died that day?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty Jane, this is crazy stuff you say here = "Go to Genesis and tell me where in the creation account God ever mentioned going to heaven or hell.....I'll save you the time....there was no such mention. All that was put before mankind was either "life or death". Adam's choices never meant anything else."

You gave me a good laugh and here is why:

The Eternal Living Elohim created Adam & Eve to walk with HIM, to know HIM so that man could enter into HIS Eternal Glory.

Hmmmm.....where were they going to walk with God then? And where does it say that man was to "enter into his eternal glory", exactly?
He didn't put humans in heaven, but he did put a whole family of spirit sons there.....and he purposefully created the earth to be inhabited forever by mortal beings. (Isaiah 45:18) I don't recall the Bible ever saying that mankind was going to live anywhere else....except the elect of course. But not all Christians are "chosen" to rule with Christ in heaven. That would mean "all chiefs and no Indians"...(Rev 20:6)

Enoch was said to "walk with the true God" (Gen 5:23)......he wasn't in heaven either.

This FACT is brought out clearly in Genesis for God said to Adam - "in the day you eat of it you will die".
But Adam did not die the day he and his wife ate the forbidden fruit.

As a matter of FACT, Adam lived for 930 Years AFTER he ate the forbidden fruit.

So what died that day?

I guess you might be thinking that God exists in a place where time is the same as it is on earth....?
Have you ever looked on Google to see how long the "days" are on other planets? God does not exist in our time zone...so what clue do the scriptures give us as to how God counts time?

2 Peter 3:8-9....ESV
"But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

Well there you have it.....no human has lived more than a "day" (a thousand years) as far as God is concerned. Even Methuselah didn't make it to 1000 years old. What died that day? Their relationship with their Creator.....and it was never regained. Adam and his wife did not make a mistake because they were without the defect of sin, perfect in every way.....perfect beings do not make mistakes....they make deliberate choices...and that is what the first three rebels did.....they abused the gift of free will, and could not be forgiven.....their deaths will be permanent. Adam and Eve "returned to the dust"...like they never existed. The devil and his hordes will see the lake of fire where the goats will already be....a place of eternal death. What goes in there, never comes out.

Jesus came to rescue Adam's children, born with a terrible inherited terminal condition, that only Jesus could fix.

 

[David in NJ]

Hmmmm.....where were they going to walk with God then? And where does it say that man was to "enter into his eternal glory", exactly?
He didn't put humans in heaven, but he did put a whole family of spirit sons there.....and he purposefully created the earth to be inhabited forever by mortal beings. (Isaiah 45:18) I don't recall the Bible ever saying that mankind was going to live anywhere else....except the elect of course. But not all Christians are "chosen" to rule with Christ in heaven. That would mean "all chiefs and no Indians"...(Rev 20:6)

Enoch was said to "walk with the true God" (Gen 5:23)......he wasn't in heaven either.

I guess you might be thinking that God exists in a place where time is the same as it is on earth....?
Have you ever looked on Google to see how long the "days" are on other planets? God does not exist in our time zone...so what clue do the scriptures give us as to how God counts time?

2 Peter 3:8-9....ESV
"But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

Well there you have it.....no human has lived more than a "day" (a thousand years) as far as God is concerned. Even Methuselah didn't make it to 1000 years old. What died that day? Their relationship with their Creator.....and it was never regained. Adam and his wife did not make a mistake because they were without the defect of sin, perfect in every way.....perfect beings do not make mistakes....they make deliberate choices...and that is what the first three rebels did.....they abused the gift of free will, and could not be forgiven.....their deaths will be permanent. Adam and Eve "returned to the dust"...like they never existed. The devil and his hordes will see the lake of fire where the goats will already be....a place of eternal death. What goes in there, never comes out.

Jesus came to rescue Adam's children, born with a terrible inherited terminal condition, that only Jesus could fix.

Aunty,

You said: Hmmmm.....where were they going to walk with God then? And where does it say that man was to "enter into his eternal glory", exactly?

"And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."

Enoch is with God in Eternal Life = Today = because he walked with God and God took him...............Peace

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty,

You said: Hmmmm.....where were they going to walk with God then? And where does it say that man was to "enter into his eternal glory", exactly?

"And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."

Enoch is with God in Eternal Life = Today = because he walked with God and God took him...............Peace

Are you serious? This shows that you know nothing about this man or his fate.
“Enoch walked with the true God” at a time when his enemies were about to do away with him because he alone was speaking the truth. In order to save him from a violent death, “God took him”......that means that God took his life gently, in order to save him from the violent death that threatened him.

Enoch died and went to the same place where all the Jews believed that they will go when they die. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) “Sheol”....the common grave of all of us. As all the ancients lived and died before Jesus, they are all still “sleeping”, waiting for the life we were all promised in the beginning....everlasting life in paradise on earth. God never changed his because of the actions of a few rebels....he made a detour, but that detour will still lead us back to the beginning...to God’s original purpose. (Isaiah 55:11)

For Jews, there was no belief in an immortal soul, so “sleeping” in death awaiting a resurrection was what they expected. There was no belief in going to heaven, up to the time of Christ’s ministry when he spoke about going to “prepare a place” for his disciples, though they did not fully understand what he meant until after his death and resurrection, when the promised holy spirit would reveal to them their “heavenly calling”. (Heb 3:1)

At John 3:12-13 in his conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus states...
“If I have told you earthly things and you still do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.”

So Jesus was telling a Jewish teacher, who knew the scriptures, (none of which spoke of going to heaven after they died) that “no man has ascended to heaven but the one who descended from heaven”....that was himself. Jesus was the first human to die and go to heaven, opening the way for his elect to follow in time.

After Pentecost, Jesus’ disciples were invited to become part of the kingdom that they had always believed was earthly, but now Jesus opened up a new hope for those chosen to assist him in administering a new world rulership, bringing redeemed mankind back into reconciliation with their Maker. Humans were never designed to go to heaven....God made us to live on this beautifully prepared earth....forever.

Jesus came to give us back what Adam took away from us.