What is "Parousia"?

[David in NJ]

Are you serious? This shows that you know nothing about this man or his fate.
“Enoch walked with the true God” at a time when his enemies were about to do away with him because he alone was speaking the truth. In order to save him from a violent death, “God took him”......that means that God took his life gently, in order to save him from the violent death that threatened him.

Enoch died and went to the same place where all the Jews believed that they will go when they die. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) “Sheol”....the common grave of all of us. As all the ancients lived and died before Jesus, they are all still “sleeping”, waiting for the life we were all promised in the beginning....everlasting life in paradise on earth. God never changed his because of the actions of a few rebels....he made a detour, but that detour will still lead us back to the beginning...to God’s original purpose. (Isaiah 55:11)

For Jews, there was no belief in an immortal soul, so “sleeping” in death awaiting a resurrection was what they expected. There was no belief in going to heaven, up to the time of Christ’s ministry when he spoke about going to “prepare a place” for his disciples, though they did not fully understand what he meant until after his death and resurrection, when the promised holy spirit would reveal to them their “heavenly calling”. (Heb 3:1)

At John 3:12-13 in his conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus states...
“If I have told you earthly things and you still do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man.”

So Jesus was telling a Jewish teacher, who knew the scriptures, (none of which spoke of going to heaven after they died) that “no man has ascended to heaven but the one who descended from heaven”....that was himself. Jesus was the first human to die and go to heaven, opening the way for his elect to follow in time.

After Pentecost, Jesus’ disciples were invited to become part of the kingdom that they had always believed was earthly, but now Jesus opened up a new hope for those chosen to assist him in administering a new world rulership, bringing redeemed mankind back into reconciliation with their Maker. Humans were never designed to go to heaven....God made us to live on this beautifully prepared earth....forever.

Jesus came to give us back what Adam took away from us.

Aunty Jane - you keep giving these funny posts about how not to believe the Scripture.

Enoch walked with God and he was not for God took him = Enoch disappeared off the earth and has yet to see death.

Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God"

 

[RR144]

I have been studying the scriptures very carefully for the past 50 years and I have come to see that the Bible explains itself....if you let it.

The Bible is one story with one author and one agenda......to tell us how God will "undo the works of the devil".
1 John 3:8...
"The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil."

So how did he plan to do that?
We have a beginning, a middle, and an end to the Bible's narrative concerning the fall in Eden. We can see what happened, and why it happened....and why God did not immediately eliminate the rebels from existence, and simply start again.

His wisdom in the way he responded to the disobedience of, not only his earthly children, but also his angelic sons, is masterful.
How God handled this situation would have eternal consequences for all of us.....it would resonate down through time as something we would never wish to happen again. The greatest object lesson in history concerning the abuse of free will.

That beginning, after the fall, is then tackled by the middle where the first prophesy in Genesis 3:15 comes into the picture. It remained a mystery for many centuries but with the coming of the promised 'seed of Abraham', the identity of the players in that first prophesy became clear.....
Addressing the serpent, (later identified as Satan the devil) Jehovah said....
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.”

So who is the "woman"? She is not Eve, nor any human woman but a figurative one who is prophetically called "the Jerusalem above and she is our mother". (Gal 4:26) The serpent is the spirit creature Satan, and no imperfect human offspring of Eve’s would have the ability to crush him. Something more was needed.
She is the mother of "the male child" whom she produces.....the one sent to crush satan's head, and to undo all the damage he has caused.

So we have two opposing factions....God and his 'offspring' and the devil and his 'offspring', both of whom manifest as both humans and spirit creatures. The Kingdom is the means whereby God re-establishes his rule over mankind.....and the King of this Kingdom is the one who will crush satan's head after his recovery from the "heel" wound.....killed by satan's agents but whose recovery was facilitated by his resurrection. With his human life and blood, he redeemed mankind from the sin inherited from Adam...and laid the foundations of his Kingdom in his apostles, who were to carry on his work after his return to heaven.....and they had one very special guarantee.....that he would be "with them all the days until the end of the age". (Matt 28:19-20)

With Christ directing the work he assigned to his disciples, it would go ahead despite the opposition that they were sure to encounter. (John 15:18-21) Like Christ's first century disciples, being different to the mainstream is a challenge. It would even pit family members against one another. (Matthew 10:34-38)

An earthly hope is all God ever gave to mankind right from the beginning. There was no "going to heaven" for the Jews because they were taught that the Kingdom would rule the earth. It wasn't until Christ ascended to heaven that the holy spirit came upon the disciples and implanted in them, an inordinate desire to go to heaven.....so they then understood what he meant when he said he was "going to prepare a place for them".
Even as he was ascending to heaven they still had no idea that they were going there too.
Acts 1:6....
"So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”
This was the Jewish expectation....the Kingdom would restore the Jews to their rightful place. But that was not to be. The Jews were serial covenant breakers, so God kept them in existence only until his purpose in connection with them was fulfilled....then after they murdered their own Messiah, he "abandoned" them to their own devices. (Matt 23:37-39)

I would agree, it's all the little details we disagree with.

 

[RR144]

Does it ever occur to you that the gathering of the elect began in the first century and that the majority of those who became "Christians" at that time, did so with much opposition, many proving "faithful unto death", so these are the words of the elect, to the elect.....these would have been in the majority back then.....but fast forward to the "last days" and the majority of Christians are no longer of the elect but will have the same destiny as all who lived and died before Jesus opened the way to heaven with the sacrifice of his own flesh and blood.

First, God's plan doesn't change. The purpose of the Church, the Elect, is to call out a people for His name, that is the name of Jesus. He told his disciples that they would be His Witnesses. (Acts 1:8). Not EVERYONE who follows Jesus can be said to be a Christian in the true sense of the word.

There were thousands according to scriptures of people who followed Jesus and became Christian. But that does not mean that God accepted them as joint-heirs with His Son. We're told that “many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:14) Chosen for what? Again, to be joint heirs with Christ. God will not deal with any other peoples until the Elect class is completed. I personally believe the number of this class is fixed, 144,000. Let's start at the year 33 when Jesus ascended to heaven. that was 1,990 year ago. If we divide that by 144,000, we get an average of 72 a year. That's not a whole lot. Again, we're told thousands believed, but believing is not enough, Again, "many called, few chosen". And when we consider the great apostasy, the dark ages, where the Bible was hidden, where only the clergy possessed it, but much fewer than 72 a year heard the call, if any, during those dark times.

Why did God put us here on the earth if he was only going to take us to heaven? He already has a large family of spirit sons in heaven, none of whom required 'training' here on earth.

God's original purpose was for humans to live on earth, possess, cultivate and filled it. That purpose hasn't changed. A prophecy was given to Adam and Eve regarding the seed that would bless and redeem mankind. That seed was Jesus, but not just Jesus, because we are told that the elect, his body members are also part of the seed. Jesus is the head, the church (the Elect) his body.

But it was to these individuals, those spirit-begotten that the term Christian refers too. Everyone in the first century were Christians, running for the "prize of the high calling". (Phil. 3:14) Again, just because you entered the race, with good intentions, doesn't necessarily mean you'll finish it. (1 Cor. 9:24)

'All Christians going to heaven' is not scriptural, and makes no sense.....since they are to be "kings and priests", (Rev 20:6) for whom do they perform these services? Priests are there for the benefit of sinners.....and there are no sinners in heaven.

It makes sense when you understand what a True Christian is. Christians are NOT called to live on earth and you'll be hard pressed to find ONE verse that states so.

There is also a" great crowd" of spirit sons in heaven who are not of the elect and who welcome the King and his associate rulers. These are in heaven, whereas the "great crowd" that John sees is standing before the throne of God (as Israel did when they were his people on earth, when earthly kings were said to sit on Jehovah's throne). With his appointed representative guiding them, these are said to "come out of the great tribulation"....the survivors of that calamity who will become the nucleus of the "new earth" where "righteousness is to dwell". (2 Pet 3:13)

So, there are two "great crowds"?

Why do us humans need to go to heaven when we can enjoy what God created right here? He prepared the earth so carefully, and all the things he made were not for himself, but for us to enjoy forever. We were put here to take care of all of it so that in his absence, he could perhaps get on with whatever plans he has for the rest of his vast universe.......we are such a tiny speck, it makes sense that he would iron out all the 'bugs' here first, and address all contingencies before branching out to populate other parts of the galaxies....who knows what he has in mind for the millenniums ahead?

As I stated, humans were created to live on earth, but God's Divine Plan, desired that His Son would have helpers, joint-heirs to assist him in reconciling mankind back to God during the millennial reign. These joint-heirs are what the scriptures call The Church, Christians.

RR

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty Jane - you keep giving these funny posts about how not to believe the Scripture.

Do you always combat what you cannot address with sarcasm? What is “funny” about anything I said?
What was “funny” was your complete lack of response to many of the scriptures I have shared and explained to show you what the Bible says.
You just ignored them all.

Enoch walked with God and he was not for God took him = Enoch disappeared off the earth and has yet to see death.

Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God"

“Taken away” from the awful situation he was in.....his life was in grave danger. There was nowhere safe for him to go. God terminating his life was preferable to him being murdered violently by his enemies.
He did not go to heaven for all the reasons already shown to you from the Bible.

But actually the words used in Hebrews 11:5 is interesting....

Strongs gives us a little more understanding as to what happened to Enoch....

"By faith G4102 Enoch G1802 was taken G3346 up G3346 so that he would not see G3708 death G2288; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND G2147 BECAUSE G1360 GOD G2316 TOOK G3346 HIM UP G3346; for before G4253 he was taken G3331 up G3331, he was attested G3140 to have been pleasing G2100 to God G2316."

You will notice two different words both translated "taken up" G3346 and G3331.

The first one is "metatithēmi " and it means....
"μετατίθημι metatíthēmi, met-at-ith'-ay-mee; from G3326 and G5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:—carry over, change, remove, translate, turn."

There are only four other verses with this word. Acts 7:16, Gal 1:6, Heb 7:12 and Jude 1:4

Acts 7:16...Joseph had made the sons of Israel solemnly swear: “God will not fail to turn his attention to you, and you must take my bones up out of here with you.” So Acts 7:16 says “And they were brought G3346 back G3346 from there to Shechem and laid in the tomb which Abraham had purchased for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor in Shechem."

Gal 1:6..."I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting G3346 Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel".

Heb 7:12..."For when the priesthood is changed G3346, of necessity there takes place a change of law also."

Jude 1:4..."For certain people have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn G3346 the grace of our God into indecent behavior and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

Can you see anything there that would indicate "taken up" as a valid translation?

The second word is "metathesis" and is used in only two other scriptures...Heb 7:12 and Heb 12:27
Heb 7:12..."For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change G3331 of law also."
Heb 12:27..."This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing G3331 of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain."

Again, there is no basis for the translation "taken up".....there is no "UP".....so it appears as if translation bias has struck again.

It's amazing what you can find out with a bit of research instead of relying on biased translators to give you a false impression.
Enoch was "NOT FOUND because GOD TOOK HIM".....he died at God's gentle hand, but he did not go to heaven because no one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13) His body was not found, just as Moses body was not found. (Deut 34:5-6)

 

[David in NJ]

God took Enoch off this earth without experiencing death = Enoch did not die = Holy Spirit confirmed = Heb 11:5

Why do you insist on correcting God? = FYI = That never works out well.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[Aunty Jane]

God took Enoch off this earth without experiencing death = Enoch did not die = Holy Spirit confirmed = Heb 11:5

He did not die by human hands.....
If no one went to heaven before Jesus where did God put Enoch?

Why do you insist on correcting God? = FYI = That never works out well.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

It seems to me that you ignore what you cannot defend...I think I have shown you enough evidence from Christendom’s own respected resources for Enoch’s fate, but the old saying is true....”a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”.......that’s OK.
We will all stand before the same judge and no one will be able to say...”no one told me”.

 

[David in NJ]

He did not die by human hands.....
If no one went to heaven before Jesus where did God put Enoch?

It seems to me that you ignore what you cannot defend...I think I have shown you enough evidence from Christendom’s own respected resources for Enoch’s fate, but the old saying is true....”a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”.......that’s OK.
We will all stand before the same judge and no one will be able to say...”no one told me”.

Human logic cannot please God and even worse is attempting to correct God = read your posts.

Only faith in believing what God says is accepted by Him = read my posts.

This is why Enoch walked with God and God took him without experiencing death = read God's Posts = Genesis and Hebrews

 

[RR144]

Enoch walked with God and he was not for God took him = Enoch disappeared off the earth and has yet to see death.

Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God"

Hebrews 11 is the "Faith chapter", as the author begins to detail the various Old Testament servants like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc. After listing all these individuals, he states in verse 13, he states "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

These ALL died, the these would include Enoch.

RR

 

[Aunty Jane]

Human logic cannot please God and even worse is attempting to correct God = read your posts.

Only faith in believing what God says is accepted by Him = read my posts.

This is why Enoch walked with God and God took him without experiencing death = read God's Posts = Genesis and Hebrews

Your replies betray a very poor command of the scriptures, I’m afraid.....Enoch died, and he didn’t go anywhere but his grave, which no one has ever found. He did not “see death” because God ended his life gently....like going to sleep. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) He will be among those faithful ancient servants of God who will return to this earth where they anticipated their lives to be in a “new world” of righteousness under God’s care and guidance.

 

[David in NJ]

Hebrews 11 is the "Faith chapter", as the author begins to detail the various Old Testament servants like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc. After listing all these individuals, he states in verse 13, he states "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

These ALL died, the these would include Enoch.

RR

Everyone except Enoch

Please re-examine Hebrews chapter 11 for you missed something, in addition to what i have posted, that explicitly excludes Enoch from the rest.

The Holy Spirit was specific in Genesis and again in Hebrews ch11 that Enoch "did not see/experience death"

he did not see
ἰδεῖν (idein)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's Greek 3708: Properly, to stare at, i.e. to discern clearly; by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear.

If you cannot find it let me know.

Peace

 

[David in NJ]

Hebrews 11 is the "Faith chapter", as the author begins to detail the various Old Testament servants like Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc. After listing all these individuals, he states in verse 13, he states "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

These ALL died, the these would include Enoch.

RR

Thank You for your reply as it was a respectable challenge.

 

[amigo de christo]

Thank You for your reply as it was a respectable challenge.

Yet none the less the bible is very clear ENOCH WAS NOT FOR GOD TOOK HIM .
Folks need to learn to righty divide some things .

 

[David in NJ]

Yet none the less the bible is very clear ENOCH WAS NOT FOR GOD TOOK HIM .
Folks need to learn to righty divide some things .

In addition to the clear statement that "Enoch did not see death" there is a part in Hebrews ch11 that they are overlooking.

 

[Aunty Jane]

In addition to the clear statement that "Enoch did not see death" there is a part in Hebrews ch11 that they are overlooking.

Would you like to clarify that for us who are sure of what the Bible teaches....what are we overlooking, or more importantly.....what are you overlooking? I have explained in detail (post #44) why "taken up" is a mistranslation of what the original verse says about Enoch. How many times has it been brought to your attention that "no one went to heaven before Jesus"? (John 3:13)...yet still you hang onto what is not true.

Enoch is listed among those faithful ones of old...he is not singled out for special mention except the manner of his death. It simply states....."In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land."

ALL of those mentioned by Paul DIED.....they knew what the promises were, but they were not fulfilled in their lifetime.
Is there any reasoning with someone who just doesn't want to know?

 

[David in NJ]

Would you like to clarify that for us who are sure of what the Bible teaches....what are we overlooking, or more importantly.....what are you overlooking? I have explained in detail (post #44) why "taken up" is a mistranslation of what the original verse says about Enoch. How many times has it been brought to your attention that "no one went to heaven before Jesus"? (John 3:13)...yet still you hang onto what is not true.

Enoch is listed among those faithful ones of old...he is not singled out for special mention except the manner of his death. It simply states....."In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land."

ALL of those mentioned by Paul DIED.....they knew what the promises were, but they were not fulfilled in their lifetime.
Is there any reasoning with someone who just doesn't want to know?

i AGREE that Enoch was not taken to Heaven as Christ was the First to Ascend to Heaven.

Enoch was in fact 'taken up' for he left earth without experiencing death.

Where God placed Enoch after God took him is not told us = God's Private Knowing

What we do know is what the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of TRUTH) has confirmed is TRUE = Enoch did not experience death.

was taken up
μετετέθη (metetethē)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Passive - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 3346: From meta and tithemi; to transfer, i.e. transport, exchange, change sides, or pervert.

Hebrews chapter 11 clearly denotes and separates Enoch from "these all died in faith".

Yourself and @RR144 should be able to see it, but if you insist on rejecting "it is written" then you remain status quo.

 

[RR144]

Everyone except Enoch

Please re-examine Hebrews chapter 11 for you missed something, in addition to what i have posted, that explicitly excludes Enoch from the rest.

The Holy Spirit was specific in Genesis and again in Hebrews ch11 that Enoch "did not see/experience death"

he did not see
ἰδεῖν (idein)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's Greek 3708: Properly, to stare at, i.e. to discern clearly; by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear.

If you cannot find it let me know.

Peace

Hmmm ... what part of "these ALL died" didn't you understand?

 

[David in NJ]

Hmmm ... what part of "these ALL died" didn't you understand?

Key to understanding:

Holy Spirit says: "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see/experience death:"

and more..............“He could not be found"

and more............"because God had taken him away.”

and more................"For before he was taken, he had this testimony "that he pleased God.""

and more......................but you refuse to SEE it

 

[Biblethumper]

This is not scripturally accurate.

The Gentiles being included in the Commonwealth of Israel was first spoken by God in the OT = Genesis and the Prophets

How it was to manifest itself, they did not know and/or fully understand.

Once Paul was saved and filled with the Holy Spirit it was revealed to him thru the OT Scriptures beginning in Genesis.

The Rapture is NOT a Gentile thing, as you supposed it, and have been taught by man.

The Rapture is a JEW & GENTILE in Christ gathering at the Second Coming of the LORD = 1 Thess & 2 Thess

The Rapture will not precede the Second Coming of Christ and the Resurrection of the dead in Christ = 1 Thess 4:13-18

1 Thes Paul is talking to the Thessalonians because they thought the their fellow brothers that died would miss the rapture so Paul tells them they will be raptured first then us on earth who are alive at that time will be with them. . Gal 2:7-8 says Paul was charged to take the mission to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews . When I said Gentiles in the Rapture I meant all believers but at this time it’s mostly Gentiles cause God hardened the Jews hearts because they rejected Christ and because of that they wouldn’t believe the truth so God focused his attention to the Gentiles and made salvation available to them and when the fullness or number of Gentiles come in Rom 11:25. They he will rapture them and then the tribulation will start. The Rapture and second coming are two separate events . God does not resurrect at his second coming because we are already with him when he comes back down to earth.

 

[Biblethumper]

Key to understanding:

Holy Spirit says: "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see/experience death:"

and more..............“He could not be found"

and more............"because God had taken him away.”

and more................"For before he was taken, he had this testimony "that he pleased God.""

and more......................but you refuse to SEE it

Proving the Rapture is real in the Bible . Enoch and Elijah were Raptured

 

[David in NJ]

Proving the Rapture is real in the Bible . Enoch and Elijah were Raptured

The Rapture is 100% TRUE - AMEN