Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Well they asked him, when wil be the time of his coming or “presence” as you stated.
and he told them..
where do you NOT see that?
What is "Parousia"?
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and he told them..
where do you NOT see that?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I just used the defenition of presence or arrival. As you showed.
Jesus is not present with us, He has not yet arrived.
So the time of his Perousia has not yet come
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
He did not become king until his coronation, which was prophetically recorded by Daniel, some 500 years before Jesus was born as a human.
Daniel 7:13-14...
“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.”
Daniel was foretelling a future event, after Jesus became the “son of man”.
Yes, as “ho Logos” (the Word) Jesus was his God and Father’s spokesman, he is the one who spoke God’s words to mankind, from their beginning and continued to do so as a man of flesh on earth.
After his return to heaven, he was the one who again spoke God’s words to John via an angel.....
Rev 1:1...
“A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John”.
After his death, he did indeed return to his Father as he said he would, but he was to sit at God’s right hand to await a certain situation on earth....only then was he to take up his kingship and act on it. David in prophesy foretold this in Psalm 110:1-2.
His first action as King was to cleanse the heavens of satan and his evil angels, casting them down to the vicinity of the earth to do their darndest to separate humans from the true God (Rev 12:7-12).....as the Revelation was of future events, the casting out of satan and his hordes was for a future time when events on earth would signal that Christ had returned and was ruling as King. It meant, "woe for the earth, because the devil has come down to you having great anger knowing that he has a short period of time".....we are in the final part of that "short period" and the devil has pulled out all the stops now, no longer subtle, he is now in our faces, challenging us to become part of his world of violence and immorality. "Just like the days of Noah" Jesus said these last days would be (Matt 24:37-39).....aren't we seeing it with our own eyes? He rules all three major aspects of the things that affect every human on this planet....the political, commercial and religious elements of man's rulership....these entangle everyone in one way or another.
But from the end of the first century onward, the devil slowly introduced another god in to Christianity, who is an imitation, but who does not resemble the one true God at all. This is the god sold to Christendom...substituted by the “weeds” of Jesus parable. Christendom seems to be oblivious to the fact that they have been sold a bill of goods by a counterfeit “church” whose core doctrines were never taught by Christ, but are found in all forms of false worship on this earth...all having the same author.
Part of the false doctrines fed to the masses is the concept of an immortal soul, which is not mentioned in either the Hebrew Scriptures nor in anything that Jesus taught......there is no separate “soul/spirit” that leaves the body to go somewhere else. (Eccl 9:5, 10; Eccl 3:19-20)
The air breathing creatures on this planet, including mankind, are all called “souls” in the Bible. They do not possess a soul but whilst they breathe, they ARE “souls”. Like Adam, with the “breath” (spirit) of life he “became” a “soul”....he was not given one. (Gen 2:7) When he stopped breathing, the soul that was Adam died, and returned to the dust as God had said. No mention was ever made of going to heaven or hell.
If there is no immortal soul, then Enoch died because God ended his life to save him from a violent death at the hand of his opposers. Enoch was not “raptured” because no human went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13) Elijah did not die, but was transferred to another assignment. He wrote a letter to the king of Judah after his spectacular transference to another location.
It is so very easy to get sidetracked by assertions made according to favored beliefs, but which have no biblical foundation.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Christ is already here....his "presence" was not something visible to the world, but the events he foretold as a "sign" that he was here and ruling his true disciples in the world, heralded his arrival (Matt 24:3-14).....and the scriptures tell us what he has been doing since these "last days" began. (2 Tim 3:1-5)
He has not manifested as judge just yet....but it is not far away.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Christ is sitting at the right hand of God
He said he had to depart. So he could send the comforter
The HS is here.. Christ is yet to come..
He will judge. When he returns to earth. Because mankind has so destroyed his creation. If he does not come, no flesh will survive
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Its a question of why would Satan's offer tempt Jesus to betray God? If Jesus was already Lord of the world, Satan's offer would not have any sort of relevance or meaning. His offer would be a moronic joke. But Jesus treats his offer like a genuine possibility, resisting his offer with scripture.
Why would Jesus be tempted by something he already possesses? Jesus will eventually be granted all the kingdoms of the world, but he knows that this path will lead him through pain, sorrow and great suffering.
Matthew 4:5 answers to the question, was Jesus already Lord of all? Not yet, which is why the temptation was both real and genuine.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
JESUS always was King and satan knew this.
Something changed, whereby the King made Himself open to this encounter.
Also, satan took away the authority over the earth from man BUT never from the King.
Clue: Change of Location
Can you find from Scripture where this is clearly stated?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I agree with the implication you mentioned. But I think a closer and more significant implication of his statement is found in his use of the phrase "long for the days", which speaks to the vulnerability his disciples might experience to false claims of his arrival. A disciple who is compelled to wait a long time for Jesus to set up his kingdom, will be looking with great interest and desire for evidence that Jesus has returned. This condition will certainly render the disciple vulnerable to false claims about his arrival. [look here, look there.]
Verse 22 follows directly and logically from verses 20, and 21, where Jesus tells the Pharisees that the kingdom of God doesn't come with signs to be observed, nor will they say, "Look here" or "There." Why? Because "the Kingdom of God is in your midst." What does he mean? He is the King and the King was in their midst. The Kingdom of God was already come, when Jesus came the first time. Some of the Pharisees recognized him while others didn't.
Only when Jesus is absent can anyone make a false claim that he has come to an undisclosed location. During his absence, people WILL say, "Look here", or "Look there" just as Jesus said. And Jesus warns his disciples not to believe them. Why? Because his arrival will not be a secret. It will be as obvious as lightning. You can't miss it. Unlike the sun, which shines brightly all the time, a lightning bolt appears in a flash. The sunshine typically goes without notice, but a bolt of lightning is always noticed. We can't help but notice it.
The point is, don't believe those who claim that Jesus has arrived without notice and is located somewhere a false teacher knows about. When Jesus returns, it won't be a secret and it won't go unnoticed.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
So you say, but it doesn't make sense of his temptation.
Secondly, Satan doesn't say he took the authority; he says it was granted to him.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i say only what the Lord has said in His word on this: 1 Samuel 8:4-7
Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”
But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord.
And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you,
but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
Adam was created to have authority over the earth. Once Adam sinned it was granted to satan.
Now that the Truth is here in front of us, it makes complete sense as to why Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness,
to be tempted by satan.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
First, I judge the correctness of an interpretation by whether or not it makes sense of the entire passage. The Spirit lead Jesus out into the wilderness so that he might be "tested" (translated "tempted.") In order for that to be a true statement, that Jesus would be tested (or tempted) then it has to be true that Satan's offer of all the kingdoms of the world must be a genuine offer. And thus, for this to be a genuine offer, Jesus must not already be Lord of all the earth.
With regard to 1Samuel 8, in fact, God was already King over Israel, ruling the nation through Samuel the priest. The people wanted a king instead. For this reason God anointed Saul to be their King. (Not Satan, not Jesus). It wasn't until later that the kingship was removed from Saul and granted to David. But not only this, God promised David that a seed of David would rule on his throne forever. He would also declare David's son to be a son of God. And his son would rule over Israel as "the son of God." 2Samuel 7. David passed the kingdom to his son Solomon, but it was Jesus who would rule on David's throne forever.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You have made an obvious error in both of your paragraphs.
1st statement - You started out on the Right Path but came to a wrong conclusion.
2nd statement - It was the Lord who spoke to Israel in the OT = IAM = the WORD became flesh.
Maybe you have never read this:
All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
“Tell the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold, your King is coming to you,
Lowly, and sitting on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.’ ”
i'm just scratching the surface here of Scripture
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The Bible.....I believe what Jesus taught about his God and Father...about the Kingdom, and what it will mean as “good news” for mankind on this earth. The Bible is one story, with one author, who does not contradict himself.
Everything in the scriptures has to contribute something to the same ‘big picture’......it starts in Genesis and ends in Revelation....everything in between tells us how the events in the garden of Eden derailed God’s first purpose, to have this earth filled with a wide variety of living things, who would be cared for by humankind, created with God’s qualities and attributes, so as to be qualified for the assignment he gave them.......and how he chose the long term solution to bring us back to the paradise he gave to the first humans, so that rebellion could never happen again....not in the spirit realm nor in the earthly realm.
By recording all the events and giving humans his laws, God handed the rulership of the world over to the one they chose to obey, to demonstrate to both humans and angels that he is their rightful Sovereign, and that nothing will succeed outside of his will and purpose.
Isaiah 11:55....
“So my word that goes out of my mouth will be.
It will not return to me without results,
But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight,
And it will have sure success in what I send it to do.”
This is his guarantee that neither humans or angels can work against his will without complete disaster resulting....we are living in the final part of that disaster, and over the last century, the human race, under influence from their “god” (2 Cor 4:4-5) has found ways to destroy all of God’s creation on this planet.
If God does not step in soon, we all know where this will end....God says he will destroy those who would destroy his earth. (Rev 11:18) He will never allow them to go that far.
Rev 21:2-4....
“I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
This is our future if we seek to do God’s will, rather than the will of men who are puppets for the devil.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Well, i see you like to read and study the Bible = GREAT
Do you believe this = "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Perhaps it is you who has come to the wrong conclusions....?
@CadyandZoe have made valid scriptural points.
Jesus never once challenged the devil’s claim that “all the kingdoms of the world” were his to give “to whomever he wished”.....(Luke 4:5-8)
Jesus knew that he was to become the King of God’s Kingdom, but at God’s appointed time which is what we see in his statement in Matt 28:18....just before he gave his disciples the command to preach about his kingdom, making disciples and baptising them....
“Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.”
As “the son of God”, he needed his Father to grant him “all authority in heaven and on earth”.....if Jesus already had such authority, then his statement makes no sense.
Perhaps your conclusion is wrong.....
“Ho Logos” became flesh...”Ho theos” did not. “Ho Logos” never once said he was “Ho Theos”.
You need to do original language word studies.
This “King” was to come, not that he was already in that capacity. Daniel saw in vision the coronation of his King. (Daniel 7:13-14) He was not a King until he had completed his mission on earth as “the son of man”.
When Jesus made his statement....
Luke 17: 20-21...
“On being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God was coming, he answered them: “The Kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness; 21 nor will people say, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For look! the Kingdom of God is in your midst.”
As the king designate, Jesus was right there among them, but they did not accept him. He said that “the Kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness”....IOW, he was speaking about something that had not yet happened....and when it did, most people would not notice that it had.
Jesus said that he would give a “sign” in a series of world events that would indicate his “presence” (Matt 24:3-14).....but this is not his “coming” as judge.....these are two separate events....one at the beginning of the “last days” and the other at the end......the final judging between “the sheep and the goats”.
This would be scripture as you interpret it....as someone has told you to interpret it.....do you “know” that what you have been taught is true, or do you only “believe” it? We all have “beliefs”, but none of us “know” except in our own conviction, that what we “believe” is true.
It is God who will reveal that....
John 6:44, 65....
“No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him” . . . . “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
It is Christ as our appointed judge who will let us know who we are, from his perspective, not our own. (Matt 7:21-23)
When Jesus walked the earth, the religious system that God had inaugurated with the Jewish nation was well and truly corrupted....they had put their own spin on scripture and made their worship invalid by adopting the traditions of men. (Matt 15:7-9; Matt 23:33)
Jesus and his apostles warned that the devil would corrupt Christianity too.....but like the Jews who were comfortable with what their religious leaders taught them and stayed with apostate Judaism, those in Christendom exist comfortably in a divided mess that doesn’t resemble original Christianity in any way.
Jesus gave the people a choice to stay with what they had been taught, or to follow his lead and become part of an unpopular minority who were thought to be apostates to the Jewish religion. History is repeating right in front of us, but the “many” do not see it. (Matt 7:21-23)
The ‘cramped road to life’ is not traveled by the majority......only “few” will show God what place the truth has in their heart. (Matt 7:13-14)
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I have been an avid Bible student for most of my life....and I am not young.
This is a subject that is not allowed to be discussed here.
I read this verse in Greek and do not see what you see.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Well that's that - without the Right Foundation a person's scriptural understanding will be skewed
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I could not agree more, but identifying that foundation in a world ruled by the devil may not be as apparent as you seem to imagine.....
The Jews thought that they were God’s nation and that their relationship to Abraham guaranteed that God would always be with them.....but John the Baptist set them straight...
Matt 3: 7-10....
“When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
Thinking that the religious system that you are a part of is truly “Christian” and therefore its fundamental beliefs cannot be wrong, is falling into the same trap as the first century Jews did.
If “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one”, (1 John 5:19) then we would expect deception to be around every corner.....and it is.
Because God’s spirit creates unity and cohesion within the body, it becomes obvious that those claiming to be part of that body, when they are not in agreement with others making the same claim, shows that they are fooling themselves.
There is one group of Christians in this world who teach the truth......and are fulfilling their obligation to be preachers and teachers as Jesus instructed. (Matt 28:19-20)...so there cannot be many who are in disagreement with one another who can claim to do that. All must be in agreement. (1 Cor 1:10) Christendom just continues to be more fragmented. Their fragmentation is proof that God is not among them. God’s spirit unites...it does not divide his worshippers.
As part of his prophesy on the end times, Jesus said that he would appoint “a faithful and wise servant” who would be charged with “feeding” Christ’s entire household of fellow slaves, their “food at the proper time”. (Matt 24:45) Only those feeding at his table would be well nourished spiritually, and understand the need for peaceful unity within that body.....all would be believing the same things and teaching one message about the kingdom of God “in all the inhabited earth” (Matt 24:14)
This is not a buffet where we just help ourselves to what is palatable to us individually.....it is served as complete meals, at the appropriate times, and we all must eat the same “food”.
When I was part of Christendom’s church system, I realised that I had no idea what God’s Kingdom was...or how it “comes” or what it’s purpose was...how God’s will was to “be done on earth as it is in heaven”....that was never explained to me. All emphasis was on going to heaven, not living on earth. (Isa 45:18)
I also came to see that the Lord’s Prayer, which we recited every week, was full of information that was lost in the parroting......they were just words, and as I said them, they meant very little apart from the fact that Jesus taught us to say them......they are not meaningless anymore because I came to see that this Prayer was not to be endlessly recited for every occasion.....it was to be a model for our own prayers. Jesus never said “pray this prayer”...he said “pray this way”....
Just understanding what I was praying for, and what those words meant, opened up a whole new world of discovery for me. I became an avid Bible student after that. I have never stopped studying and gleaning gems from that treasure chest....and still they come.
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