What is Predetermined?

[michaelvpardo]

The umbrella of God's protection is for all. God does not initiate disaster or maintain it.....we know who the destroyer is.
Many choose to step out from under God's protection and worship the destroyer, the one who steals and kills, either deliberately or by being deceived.....they push God's protection away.

39 ‘Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand. Deuteronomy 32:39

God is not the author of evil. He's good all the time.
But I see a wee bit of destruction in Deuteronomy 32:39

It wasn't just Moses that said this either:

5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! Luke12:5

And in the final judgment:
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15
This sounds a tad destructive too, but at this point the only ones left to execute this Judgment are God, the Holy Angels, and the saints.
Why do you think that Moses, Jesus, and John were mistaken?

 

[michaelvpardo]

First, lust isn't just about sex. Lust can be many things, as it's just the desire to have one's way. No one totally eliminates this, including the most godly among us. I would venture to say that the most godly admit they still have issues. And of course it's visible if you are around them enough. Anyone can look holy for an hour on Sunday.
I guess that's why the monks went to the wilderness and tried to eliminate all comforts of this life.

It's easy to be Holy when alone on a mountaintop.

 

[robert derrick]

First, lust isn't just about sex. Lust can be many things, as it's just the desire to have one's way. No one totally eliminates this, including the most godly among us. I would venture to say that the most godly admit they still have issues. And of course it's visible if you are around them enough. Anyone can look holy for an hour on Sunday.
I guess that's why the monks went to the wilderness and tried to eliminate all comforts of this life.

I guess that's why the monks went to the wilderness and tried to eliminate all comforts of this life.

Which is not laying down our life for Christ. Lust can still remain in the heart, even in the wilderness. Jesus did not die on the cross to turn our lives into monkish retreats, but to wash our souls clean in His blood, and to cut out all lust from our hearts:

And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

lust isn't just about sex. Lust can be many things, as it's just the desire to have one's way. No one totally eliminates this, including the most godly among us. No one totally eliminates this, including the most godly among us.

Then no one is really saved, because that is exactly what losing our life and taking up our on cross is all about.

And so you have become a judge of other's men's thoughts.

You must now consider the fact that you are being the self-righteous judge of others:

Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

James is rebuking believers who judge others based upon their own righteousness, their own standard of righteousness in their own heart and life: Self-righteousness.

The problem with arguing from our own experience is we then begin to judge others accordingly:

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

When we stop judging things by our own conscience and experience, and begin to judge all things according to the Scripture, then we will be challenged to do the truth of Scripture by faith, rather than to continue on in our own personal ideas about the things of God and of eternal life:

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Rather than telling ourselves everyone else is like us, in order to justify ourselves, we ought be prying and telling God to make us like Jesus according to His Word, which is to be conformed to His image and righteousness, not our own:

Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

When our standard of righteousness and our view of salvation does not measure up to God's Word, then it is us who must change, not God.

The flood proved that just because 'everyone else is doing it', doesn't mean everyone will be excused from it by God.

Remember, we are saved and made righteous by grace: God doesn't need any of us in heaven with Him.

He doesn't have to resurrect us unto glory, just because we say He must based upon our own belief: our faith is trash, when it is not by treasure of Scripture, which is the faith of Jesus only:

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[robert derrick]

It's easy to be Holy when alone on a mountaintop.

It's easy to appear holy, until back in the city.

Holiness begins with a pure heart free of lust and the law of sin and death.

 

[robert derrick]

Can you please provide the name of one professing Christian who says "we must sin daily." Just one will do.

I made a list of quotes, not of certain people. If you want to know who they are, then you can go to their 'grace-hater' thread, where they hate all saints calling for righteousness at all times, and not daily sinning by grace.

John and Paul both taught that we sin daily.

newsflash!!! You sin every. Single. Day. You cant stop. Everyone on this planet sins every single day.

The persons were doing exactly what God predestinated them to do. They have NOTHING to do with their salvation. We will continue to sin in this life.

Like Paul said, there is no good thing in us and Paul was chiefest of sinners.

All of mankind is depraved, including ourselves.

While we should strive to not sin, you cannot stop it.

We can’t help ourselves from sin.

The 'no sinner' crowd are self righteous and proud. They sin just like everyone else, but they are too proud to admit it.


There are plenty more, but you get the gist of it: We are still sinners, we will continue to sin, and there is nothing we can do about it.

 

[michaelvpardo]

It's easy to appear holy, until back in the city.

Holiness begins with a pure heart free of lust and the law of sin and death.

That's the point. Holiness is separation, the quality of being separate. However your definition doesn't hold true to scripture. The high priests of the law wore a turbin with a gold emblem that declared holiness to the Lord, yet they had to make atonement for themselves before entering into the most holy place, "lest they die."
Aaron's sons were all priests of the order of Aaron, and Holy to the law (sanctified and separated to the priesthood). But Nadab and Abihu were struck down for offering profane fire before the Lord (and offering not according to His instructions).

10 Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them. 2 So fire went out from the Lord and devoured them, and they died before the Lord. 3 And Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the Lord spoke, saying:

‘By those who come near Me
I must be regarded as holy;
And before all the people
I must be glorified.’ ”
Leviticus 10:1-3

God has many attributes, but they are different attributes, not all the same. Holiness is not defined by purity. Purity is more properly defined by incorruptibility (as in "pure as gold")

When God told Moses to remove his sandals because he was standing on holy ground. The ground had no inherent purity, but was made holy by God's presence.
Jesus taught a bit about this.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it. Matthew 23:16-22
Objects and people are sanctified by their use and purpose, not by their nature.

18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Mark 10:18
How can that which is not good called pure?
How is that which is not holy by nature called holy?

Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested.” Revelation 15:4

God makes things Holy by His presence. Christians are sanctified, set apart as holy to the Lord by His presence, the indwelling of His Holy Spirit, not by our character.
This is why we have to examine ourselves and confess our sin to Him before "communion" so that we don't fall sick or die.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-27
The Lord wants us to be of good character, but we aren't holy because of our character, but in spite of it.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I made a list of quotes, not of certain people. If you want to know who they are, then you can go to their 'grace-hater' thread, where they hate all saints calling for righteousness at all times, and not daily sinning by grace.

John and Paul both taught that we sin daily.

newsflash!!! You sin every. Single. Day. You cant stop. Everyone on this planet sins every single day.

The persons were doing exactly what God predestinated them to do. They have NOTHING to do with their salvation. We will continue to sin in this life.

Like Paul said, there is no good thing in us and Paul was chiefest of sinners.

All of mankind is depraved, including ourselves.

While we should strive to not sin, you cannot stop it.

We can’t help ourselves from sin.

The 'no sinner' crowd are self righteous and proud. They sin just like everyone else, but they are too proud to admit it.


There are plenty more, but you get the gist of it: We are still sinners, we will continue to sin, and there is nothing we can do about it.

The notion "once saved always saved" is not a declaration of "sinlessness", but of God's mercy and grace. However, it can be presumptuous if the person who says it considers grace license to sin, abuses Christian liberty, and insults the Spirit of grace. Such are either immature and ignorant of the teaching of Christ, or self decieved hypocrites, workers of lawlessness, who just don't know Him by His Spirit. This doesn't invalidate the doctrines of grace, because sonship includes divine discipline and children in error are corrected by discipline.

 

[robert derrick]

The notion "once saved always saved" is not a declaration of "sinlessness", but of God's mercy and grace. However, it can be presumptuous if the person who says it considers grace license to sin, abuses Christian liberty, and insults the Spirit of grace. Such are either immature and ignorant of the teaching of Christ, or self decieved hypocrites, workers of lawlessness, who just don't know Him by His Spirit. This doesn't invalidate the doctrines of grace, because sonship includes divine discipline and children in error are corrected by discipline.

Fair enough.

The problem is when people preach going on still in their sins and trespasses with preforgiven grace, they are in fact preaching license to sin, especially when loudly declaring themselves to be depraved sinners like the rest of the world.

All talk of 'ought to be doing right' afterward is just lip service.

They also then go on to rail against anyone preaching righteous, holy, and blameless living in this life, as being proud and claiming sinless perfection.

 

[Renniks]

I guess that's why the monks went to the wilderness and tried to eliminate all comforts of this life.

Which is not laying down our life for Christ. Lust can still remain in the heart, even in the wilderness. Jesus did not die on the cross to turn our lives into monkish retreats, but to wash our souls clean in His blood, and to cut out all lust from our hearts:

And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

lust isn't just about sex. Lust can be many things, as it's just the desire to have one's way. No one totally eliminates this, including the most godly among us. No one totally eliminates this, including the most godly among us.

Then no one is really saved, because that is exactly what losing our life and taking up our on cross is all about.

And so you have become a judge of other's men's thoughts.

You must now consider the fact that you are being the self-righteous judge of others:

Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

James is rebuking believers who judge others based upon their own righteousness, their own standard of righteousness in their own heart and life: Self-righteousness.

The problem with arguing from our own experience is we then begin to judge others accordingly:

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

When we stop judging things by our own conscience and experience, and begin to judge all things according to the Scripture, then we will be challenged to do the truth of Scripture by faith, rather than to continue on in our own personal ideas about the things of God and of eternal life:

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Rather than telling ourselves everyone else is like us, in order to justify ourselves, we ought be prying and telling God to make us like Jesus according to His Word, which is to be conformed to His image and righteousness, not our own:

Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

When our standard of righteousness and our view of salvation does not measure up to God's Word, then it is us who must change, not God.

The flood proved that just because 'everyone else is doing it', doesn't mean everyone will be excused from it by God.

Remember, we are saved and made righteous by grace: God doesn't need any of us in heaven with Him.

He doesn't have to resurrect us unto glory, just because we say He must based upon our own belief: our faith is trash, when it is not by treasure of Scripture, which is the faith of Jesus only:

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Again you give me verses instructing us what we should do to become more like Jesus. I wonder why Christians need to hear these things if they are already Holy in every thought and action? Accusing me of being a self-righteous judge is making yourself a self-righteous judge and I grow weary of your constant judging. Judging perhaps the most insidious of sins, why do you have to judge me merely because you disagree with my thoughts on scripture?
At any rate, you are proving my point by claiming to be pure while looking for specks in my eye.

 

[robert derrick]

Again you give me verses instructing us what we should do to become more like Jesus. I wonder why Christians need to hear these things if they are already Holy in every thought and action? Accusing me of being a self-righteous judge is making yourself a self-righteous judge and I grow weary of your constant judging. Judging perhaps the most insidious of sins, why do you have to judge me merely because you disagree with my thoughts on scripture?
At any rate, you are proving my point by claiming to be pure while looking for specks in my eye.

You declare no Christians can possibly be pure of heart without lust, because you are not. And then you accuse others of judging you, when they admonish you for making such self-righteous judgements of others.

You speak against seeking specs in the eyes of others, while seeing lust in the hearts of all others.

I wonder why Christians need to hear these things if they are already Holy in every thought and action?

This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour.

For the purpose of remembrance with the saints, which you reject.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

You are an open scoffer of the purity of heart and righteousness of God in them that have repented of their sins and no more walk after the flesh, but only after the Spirit.

From your heart you openly declare such Christianity to be impossible, and is only preached by them that must be proud hypocrites according to your personal experience and unrighteous judgment.

I have tried to warn and admonish you, but you reject it, and instead turn against any help to show you the way of righteousness in all things.

According to your faith be it unto you.

 

[Renniks]

You declare no Christians can possibly be pure of heart without lust, because you are not. And then you accuse others of judging you, when they admonish you for making such self-righteous judgements of others.

You speak against seeking specs in the eyes of others, while seeing lust in the hearts of all others.

I wonder why Christians need to hear these things if they are already Holy in every thought and action?

This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour.

For the purpose of remembrance with the saints, which you reject.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

You are an open scoffer of the purity of heart and righteousness of God in them that have repented of their sins and no more walk after the flesh, but only after the Spirit.

From your heart you openly declare such Christianity to be impossible, and is only preached by them that must be proud hypocrites according to your personal experience and unrighteous judgment.

I have tried to warn and admonish you, but you reject it, and instead turn against any help to show you the way of righteousness in all things.

According to your faith be it unto you.

I really don't think you understand my position at all. You say you don't believe in entire sanctification while constantly claiming that we can be 100 percent pure. Sooo, that's very confusing. Like most people that bang that drum, you won't come out and say you are sinless, while again, claiming true Christians don't sin.
You keep claiming I'm a proud sinner, even though I've corrected you on that more than once. Real believers aren't proud of their sins, but Saints of all sorts acknowledge their weaknesses.
Like Paul said, that thing I don't want to do, I keep on doing. Is that proud hypocrisy? Not even close.

 

[robert derrick]

I really don't think you understand my position at all. You say you don't believe in entire sanctification while constantly claiming that we can be 100 percent pure. Sooo, that's very confusing. Like most people that bang that drum, you won't come out and say you are sinless, while again, claiming true Christians don't sin.
You keep claiming I'm a proud sinner, even though I've corrected you on that more than once. Real believers aren't proud of their sins, but Saints of all sorts acknowledge their weaknesses.
Like Paul said, that thing I don't want to do, I keep on doing. Is that proud hypocrisy? Not even close.

I had pretty much given up on you, but you keep coming back with sincerity.

So we'll leave judging the hearts and lives of others to God, and stick with points of doctrine at hand.

1. How do I not believe in 'entire' sanctification. Saints are either sanctified or not.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2. You won't come out and say you are sinless, while again, claiming true Christians don't sin.

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.

Is this Paul claiming sinlessness? Is this Paul confirming he is chiefest of sinners?

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Is this Paul and John exhorting to be sinless in this life? Are they banging a drum of uber-righteousness?

3. Real believers aren't proud of their sins, but Saints of all sorts acknowledge their weaknesses.

True. And the difference between Christian sinners and Christian saints is the saints seek deliverance, not leaving any sin unrepented. Sinners don't.

4. Like Paul said, that thing I don't want to do, I keep on doing. Is that proud hypocrisy?

No, it is Paul showing empathy with those still in a state of wretched double mindedness. It is not Scripture teaching such wretchedness for life.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Do you say no Christian can ever be delivered from their double mindedness to have a heart purified of lust and hands cleansed of sins?

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Is this sinless living?

Do you believe this Scripture to do so in your own life, or not?

Let's respect and honor one another and answer each other's points directly. It may lead to a meeting of our minds in the doctrine of Christ.

 

[robert derrick]

That's the point. Holiness is separation, the quality of being separate. However your definition doesn't hold true to scripture. The high priests of the law wore a turbin with a gold emblem that declared holiness to the Lord, yet they had to make atonement for themselves before entering into the most holy place, "lest they die."
Aaron's sons were all priests of the order of Aaron, and Holy to the law (sanctified and separated to the priesthood). But Nadab and Abihu were struck down for offering profane fire before the Lord (and offering not according to His instructions).

10 Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them. 2 So fire went out from the Lord and devoured them, and they died before the Lord. 3 And Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the Lord spoke, saying:

‘By those who come near Me
I must be regarded as holy;
And before all the people
I must be glorified.’ ”
Leviticus 10:1-3

God has many attributes, but they are different attributes, not all the same. Holiness is not defined by purity. Purity is more properly defined by incorruptibility (as in "pure as gold")

When God told Moses to remove his sandals because he was standing on holy ground. The ground had no inherent purity, but was made holy by God's presence.
Jesus taught a bit about this.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it. Matthew 23:16-22
Objects and people are sanctified by their use and purpose, not by their nature.

18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Mark 10:18
How can that which is not good called pure?
How is that which is not holy by nature called holy?

Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested.” Revelation 15:4

God makes things Holy by His presence. Christians are sanctified, set apart as holy to the Lord by His presence, the indwelling of His Holy Spirit, not by our character.
This is why we have to examine ourselves and confess our sin to Him before "communion" so that we don't fall sick or die.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-27
The Lord wants us to be of good character, but we aren't holy because of our character, but in spite of it.

Objects and people are sanctified by their use and purpose, not by their nature.

In the OT that was certainly true, which is why David cried out to God to have a clean heart made in himself (Ps 51:10), which cleansing of the conscience the prophets desired and looked into (1 Peter 1:9-12): it was the hope of the coming Christ for OT believers, for whom such promise never came until Jesus death, burial, and resurrection:

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

What you just did was describe yourself as an unwashed OT believer, still having the same character and nature of the unredeemed old man of sin.

You just confirmed that the blood of the Lamb for you is no better than that of a bull or a goat to cover sins only, not wash your soul clean of them and purify your heart from lust by the Spirit: by your own confession, like an OT child of flesh, you are not circumcised of heart with the circumcision of Christ.

Them that repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ are born again of the Spirit of God and made new creatures with the new divine nature and holy character of the perfect seed of Christ.

You need to repent of your errant faith and receive the faith of Jesus, that your sins may be washed away, and you no more be the old man of sinful character and nature, to become a son of God with power to overcome all flesh and live by the faith of Jesus in true righteousness and holiness.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

You make yourself an OT believer under the blood of bulls and goats, trying to claim NT salvation without being washed in the blood of the Lamb.

The Lord wants us to be of good character, but we aren't holy because of our character, but in spite of it.

The Lord doesn't 'want' nor 'wish' us to be like His Son and a brother of the Lord, but commands and demands it in this life, if we are to attain to the resurrection of the dead.

No Christians will obtain eternal salvation by erroneous personal faith alone, despite their ongoing sins and trespasses in this life.

 

[robert derrick]

"Holiness begins with a pure heart free of lust and the law of sin and death."

Holiness is separation, the quality of being separate. However your definition doesn't hold true to scripture.

How does a person claiming Christ reject having a pure heart??

Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart.

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

When God told Moses to remove his sandals because he was standing on holy ground. The ground had no inherent purity, but was made holy by God's presence. Objects and people are sanctified by their use and purpose, not by their nature.

This of course is an open rejection of being born of the Spirit with the new divine nature of Christ: it is a confession of remaining the old man of sinful character, a soul unwashed and cleansed of all unrighteousness by the blood of the Lamb.

This is a person trying to live in an unwashed OT relationship with the God of Israel, while claiming NT salvation of the resurrected Saviour Jesus Christ: sanctified to God as 'chosen', but not inwardly sanctified by the Spirit.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Holiness is not defined by purity.

So, God's holiness is not pure nor is it defined by purity, but is only a physical placement of purpose: this is the error of the unbelieving Pharisees who trusted only in washing of tables as holiness to the Lord, and sought nothing of God's pure holiness inwardly.

Man's false holiness is defined only by 'situational' purpose, but to say God's true holiness is not being pure and holy as he is holy, is a lie of the devil, that any normal uncorrupted child would reject.

First there is personal faith without works of God, and now there is holiness of God without purity of heart: being holiness unto the Lord while remaining unclean of soul and impure of heart.

A separation unto God for personal salvation, without being saved and separated from the sins and trespasses of the world.

Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.

In the OT, this command only pertained to outer washings and services of a worldly tabernacle (Heb 9:1), but with the precious blood of Christ and the Lamb without spot, this commandment is to be fulfilled wholly and holy within by the Spirit and Word of God:

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Calvin's predestination 'of who' also rejects 'what': to be conformed to His image of righteousness and true holiness.

It results in a profane teaching of OT unwashed souls and hearts trying to claim NT salvation, based solely upon personal belief in being prechosen before birth, while openly rejecting a pure heart and going on still in their unrepented sins and trespasses.

The personally think they are already preknown, predestinated, prechosen, and presecured for eternal salvation, once they 'believe it'.

And they only treat predestination of being conformed to His image, as a matter of 'want to':

The Lord wants us to be of good character, but we aren't holy because of our character, but in spite of it.

They think themselves by foolish faith to be eternally secured with salvation by prechoosing of God, despite continuing in unholy character and unrighteous living.

They literally think themselves prechosen and 'separated' unto God for salvation, without being sanctified inwardly of the Spirit and separated from all unrighteousness of the world: not born of the Spirit, circumcised of heart in Christ, nor made a wholly new creature with the holy divine nature of God's perfect seed.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Fair enough.

The problem is when people preach going on still in their sins and trespasses with preforgiven grace, they are in fact preaching license to sin, especially when loudly declaring themselves to be depraved sinners like the rest of the world.

All talk of 'ought to be doing right' afterward is just lip service.

They also then go on to rail against anyone preaching righteous, holy, and blameless living in this life, as being proud and claiming sinless perfection.

Scripture would appear to declare that all sin is forgiven in Christ and that in receiving Him your eternal status is changed. The Apostle John and Paul both use some oblique language to describe this, effectively saying that if you're in Christ and have His Spirit that you do not sin, but also say that you do sin (John going so far as to say that if you say you have no sin then you're a liat.) This is what is called logical contradiction.

We resolve this by our understanding. Some say that having received Him we no longer sin because when we commit sin as Christians its already forgiven and they aren't wrong. The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin, not some sin. However, when we sin intentionally we grieve His Spirit. Why is God grieved by our sin? We don't harm Him by sinning, but we harm others and ourselves (as well as giving reason for His name to be blasphemed in the world.)

However as Children of God, unrepentant sin places us under His discipline. God is sovereign in the world and "makes things happen." He uses all things to work for the good of all that love Him and are called according to His purposes, and that includes painful and hurtful chastening to correct our errant behavior. However, this doesn't make us any less His children and doesn't remove the seal of His Spirit. We don't enter into relationship with Him by faith and then get disowned for sin over and over again, not even once. But, in order to walk with Him in blessing, we need to walk obediently. The alternative is "cursing", not condemnation but correction.

You may not see things this way and I know some rebellious Christians that assert that they are free to do anything that they want because they don't recognize God's discipline when it comes. God is still able to correct errant children. He has the power to change the heart and He does. He changes our desires, replacing evil ones with good ones. All this is the teaching of scripture, not just vain imagination.
The Lord did not enter the world to condemn us, but to save us and He has the power to do His will.

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

I'm not going to continue arguing over this because you will believe whatever you believe, but I never argue for a "right" to sin, but for the character and glory of our Lord. Paul was accused of teaching license to sin, but Paul taught Christ and His grace, not focusing on judgment, simply because the Epistles are all written to the church, believing saints and those sanctified under their teaching. Jesus, in the gospels, sometimes teaches His disciples directly, but most commonly was addressing unbelieving Jews who were in the process of being judged. We understand this because He knew that He was headed for rejection, humiliation and crucifixion, weeping over the fate of Jerusalem and the people of His birth, His family according to the flesh.

The parables were given to confound those under the sentence of God's judgment and He was only received by those taught by the Father. I'm confident that this remains true today because condemnation is the result of rejecting His words, not simply our own sinful condition, or no soul would be saved.

 

[Renniks]

I had pretty much given up on you, but you keep coming back with sincerity.

So we'll leave judging the hearts and lives of others to God, and stick with points of doctrine at hand.

1. How do I not believe in 'entire' sanctification. Saints are either sanctified or not.

Well you said before that you didn't.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2. You won't come out and say you are sinless, while again, claiming true Christians don't sin.

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.

Again, you would not say you were sinless. Are you know saying you are?

Is this Paul claiming sinlessness? Is this Paul confirming he is chiefest of sinners?

I don't think Paul is claiming to be sinless. Some of the people in his churches were pretty messed up. In comparison, he was a holy man, not a perfect one, which he confirms many times.

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Yes, we are blameless because we are in him. Not because we possess any righteousness of our own.
"and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phillppians 3:9

Is this Paul and John exhorting to be sinless in this life? Are they banging a drum of uber-righteousness?

3. Real believers aren't proud of their sins, but Saints of all sorts acknowledge their weaknesses.

True. And the difference between Christian sinners and Christian saints is the saints seek deliverance, not leaving any sin unrepented. Sinners don't.

4. Like Paul said, that thing I don't want to do, I keep on doing. Is that proud hypocrisy?

No, it is Paul showing empathy with those still in a state of wretched double mindedness. It is not Scripture teaching such wretchedness for life.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Do you say no Christian can ever be delivered from their double mindedness to have a heart purified of lust and hands cleansed of sins?

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Is this sinless living?

Do you believe this Scripture to do so in your own life, or not?

Let's respect and honor one another and answer each other's points directly. It may lead to a meeting of our minds in the doctrine of Christ.

No Paul was admitting to still struggling with sin. I've heard the old claim in holiness churches that this was Paul identifying with unsaved people, but I don't buy it.
The old testament passage doesn't really qualify but let us understand that it's only Christ that gives us a new heart and spirit. The whole of the Old Testament confirms that we can't do it for ourselves. No one ever kept the law but Jesus. So you should understand why only through his righteousness can we be rescued from ourselves.
I'm more a storyteller than a debater, so: I was going to be over by the Dollar General today, and everytime I'm over that way, there's this little voice in my head saying: "Stop and get a Dr. Pepper." It doesn't matter if I need anything at the store or not. Well, what's that about? It's a useless and ultimately harmful desire for something that only brings momentary pleasure. Isn't that the very essence of sin? Well, you say, it's just a soft drink and I agree. But I don't need it, it has no redeeming value, nor does any junk food. What's the difference between these "little" sins that we indulge in and if I was to go out and hire a prostitute? I know, you are thinking: "What a ridiculous comparison!" But is it? I think it's just a matter of degree. Isn't any useless and harmful desire sin? I have no intention of hiring a prostitute, but I'm sure I'll buy a Dr Pepper sometime this week. Most people probably don't even think about their "little" sins. Gluttony, for example, is so acceptable in our society it's not even commented on.
My point isn't to harp on people's little vices and judge them. I'm in the same boat. Sitting here arguing on the computer is ultimately pointless and no doubt sinful when I could be being productive. The point is, none of us have achieved perfect holiness. Thank God that Jesus righteousness covers us because otherwise we would all be doomed.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Objects and people are sanctified by their use and purpose, not by their nature.

In the OT that was certainly true, which is why David cried out to God to have a clean heart made in himself (Ps 51:10), which cleansing of the conscience the prophets desired and looked into (1 Peter 1:9-12): it was the hope of the coming Christ for OT believers, for whom such promise never came until Jesus death, burial, and resurrection:

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

What you just did was describe yourself as an unwashed OT believer, still having the same character and nature of the unredeemed old man of sin.

You just confirmed that the blood of the Lamb for you is no better than that of a bull or a goat to cover sins only, not wash your soul clean of them and purify your heart from lust by the Spirit: by your own confession, like an OT child of flesh, you are not circumcised of heart with the circumcision of Christ.

Them that repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ are born again of the Spirit of God and made new creatures with the new divine nature and holy character of the perfect seed of Christ.

You need to repent of your errant faith and receive the faith of Jesus, that your sins may be washed away, and you no more be the old man of sinful character and nature, to become a son of God with power to overcome all flesh and live by the faith of Jesus in true righteousness and holiness.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

You make yourself an OT believer under the blood of bulls and goats, trying to claim NT salvation without being washed in the blood of the Lamb.

The Lord wants us to be of good character, but we aren't holy because of our character, but in spite of it.

The Lord doesn't 'want' nor 'wish' us to be like His Son and a brother of the Lord, but commands and demands it in this life, if we are to attain to the resurrection of the dead.

No Christians will obtain eternal salvation by erroneous personal faith alone, despite their ongoing sins and trespasses in this life.

What you just did was bare false witness against your neighbor (you can't possibly know anyone's heart but your own.) Something that you do quite regularly when loosing an argument to scripture.

 

[ScottA]

Sin is sin.

That even sin for those who are in Him, is not counted as sin.

Sometimes we have to wonder if OSAS really believes what they are saying, or are they just blind to what they are saying in order to justify themselves.

Sin is sin, but not all sin is counted as sin.

So, sin is sin if an unbeliever sins, and sin isn't sin if a believer sins.

The sins of unbelievers are sins in deed, and exceeding sinful. But the sins of the believers are not, because they don't count.

You see, in the OSAS world, while sin is certainly sin, all sins are not sinned alike.

Unbelievers sin like real sinners. Believers sin like Christian sinners.

There are sinners playing games with religion, and then there are Christians playing games with sins: what's the difference?

Such hypocrisy is indeed spiritual wickedness in high places.

No wonder Paul said not to keep company with such. I'd rather be around good old fashioned fornicators and drunkards, that lay not spurious and ridiculously offensive claims to the name of Jesus Christ.

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit." Psalm 32:1-2​

 

[robert derrick]

Scripture would appear to declare that all sin is forgiven in Christ and that in receiving Him your eternal status is changed. The Apostle John and Paul both use some oblique language to describe this, effectively saying that if you're in Christ and have His Spirit that you do not sin, but also say that you do sin (John going so far as to say that if you say you have no sin then you're a liat.) This is what is called logical contradiction.

We resolve this by our understanding. Some say that having received Him we no longer sin because when we commit sin as Christians its already forgiven and they aren't wrong. The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin, not some sin. However, when we sin intentionally we grieve His Spirit. Why is God grieved by our sin? We don't harm Him by sinning, but we harm others and ourselves (as well as giving reason for His name to be blasphemed in the world.)

However as Children of God, unrepentant sin places us under His discipline. God is sovereign in the world and "makes things happen." He uses all things to work for the good of all that love Him and are called according to His purposes, and that includes painful and hurtful chastening to correct our errant behavior. However, this doesn't make us any less His children and doesn't remove the seal of His Spirit. We don't enter into relationship with Him by faith and then get disowned for sin over and over again, not even once. But, in order to walk with Him in blessing, we need to walk obediently. The alternative is "cursing", not condemnation but correction.

You may not see things this way and I know some rebellious Christians that assert that they are free to do anything that they want because they don't recognize God's discipline when it comes. God is still able to correct errant children. He has the power to change the heart and He does. He changes our desires, replacing evil ones with good ones. All this is the teaching of scripture, not just vain imagination.
The Lord did not enter the world to condemn us, but to save us and He has the power to do His will.

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

I'm not going to continue arguing over this because you will believe whatever you believe, but I never argue for a "right" to sin, but for the character and glory of our Lord. Paul was accused of teaching license to sin, but Paul taught Christ and His grace, not focusing on judgment, simply because the Epistles are all written to the church, believing saints and those sanctified under their teaching. Jesus, in the gospels, sometimes teaches His disciples directly, but most commonly was addressing unbelieving Jews who were in the process of being judged. We understand this because He knew that He was headed for rejection, humiliation and crucifixion, weeping over the fate of Jerusalem and the people of His birth, His family according to the flesh.

The parables were given to confound those under the sentence of God's judgment and He was only received by those taught by the Father. I'm confident that this remains true today because condemnation is the result of rejecting His words, not simply our own sinful condition, or no soul would be saved.

I'm not going to continue arguing over this because you will believe whatever you believe.

Dittoes. And I am not arguing with you. It's nothing personal friend. This is a forum to put forth the teaching of Scripture as we see it. If we can correct one another, then it is a blessing to him that is corrected. If we arrive at a wall of disagreement, then so be it, and God will judge all things according to His Word written plainly for us in Scripture.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I'm not going to continue arguing over this because you will believe whatever you believe.

Dittoes. And I am not arguing with you. It's nothing personal friend. This is a forum to put forth the teaching of Scripture as we see it. If we can correct one another, then it is a blessing to him that is corrected. If we arrive at a wall of disagreement, then so be it, and God will judge all things according to His Word written plainly for us in Scripture.

I agree with this but discussing matters on a forum is not license to break the commandment. There is very little in the way of enforcement of church discipline on this site, but God will discipline His adopted children rebelling in open and unrepentant sin.