What is Predetermined?

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PinSeeker

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Robert derrick you seriously need to learn what OSAS is actually about. You keep talking about it, and the more you do, the more you reveal how little you know about it. OSAS is Biblical.
As I have said several times, Lifelong_sinner, there are OSAS believers that have incorrect understandings of that doctrine, one of them being those who either knowingly or inadvertently subscribe to antinomianism, or "against the law" ~ the terribly incorrect doctrine that Christians are freed by grace from the necessity of obeying the Mosaic Law, and that there are no longer any consequences administered by God for sin. Antinomians reject the very notion of obedience as legalistic. Again, this is terribly wrong. And this is really what RobertDerrick is ranting and raving about, apparently without even realizing it. The ranting and raving is unnecessary, yes, but the condemnation of the belief that antinomianism is Biblical is well warranted, as it is not Biblical at all.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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The answer is in the question: What is predetermined, not who.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
For Pete's sake, it states it right there - WHOM HE DID PREDESTINATE. What is your problem, are you so anti-Calvinist that it blinds you?
God's foreknowledge of the future, of all who would be saved, was in His mind. He is sovereign, knows all, so why would you limit his knowledge of anyone. He had a specific design of every single organism, down to the DNA, and allowed for sin to distort each and every cell or every organism and knew exactly what would prevail. Christ died for our sins before we were born. Can you grasp that? No. What do believe, that He didn't know the sins of the future generations or how it would all pan out? His plan is precise. Nobody can mess up His perfect plan. His foreknowledge contains all history up to this point and beyond to the New Heaven and New Earth. Otherwise, prophesy could never pan out as it has with hair-splitting accuracy. We can't conceive what God does as He does for several reasons: He is omniscient and we aren't. But also, He lives outside of our time domain, in a spiritual realm that we cannot understand. He is not confined to time as we know it so it is hard for us to understand. Calvin was wrong btw, he tried to explain how salvation works by putting God into a box. That was high minded, beyond his ability and ours. TULIP is flawed. Nevertheless, it is not totally false, there are parts of it that are true. Predestination is Biblical, it's just mysterious and we should leave it at that.
 

PinSeeker

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I am on earth. All living mortals are. Those at Matt 7:22-23 think they are saved as well.
Well, I would say that those Jesus is referring to there are those who, as of now, think they have no need of salvation. But at the final Judgment ~ which is what Jesus is talking about here (see Matthew 25:31-46, as it more fully fleshes out that event, which will happen shortly after Christ's return) ~ they will seek to justify themselves by saying what He says they will say in verse 22 (also Matthew 25:44). They will be rejected and sent away.

Grace and peace to you.
 

PinSeeker

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For Pete's sake, it states it right there - WHOM HE DID PREDESTINATE. What is your problem, are you so anti-Calvinist that it blinds you? God's foreknowledge of the future, of all who would be saved, was in His mind. He is sovereign, knows all, so why would you limit his knowledge of anyone.
Hey, RDB, I'm truly with you on the subject being discussed here (OSAS, predestination, etc.), but I will take issue with this, particularly what you are saying about God's foreknowing, which is the basis of this predestination. In particular, I'm referring to Romans 8:29, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son..." You may be in agreement with this, but this foreknowing cannot merely mean "knowing beforehand" for at least the following two reasons:

1. In that sense, God foreknows everybody and every thing. But Paul is talking about a particular group, a subset of all people, those who will be saved.

2. The verb we translate to "know" here is in the Greek synonymous with "love" in the same sense as Adam knew his wife Eve, and she conceived Cain and Abel (Genesis 4). So "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is synonymous with "fore-loved" and even "fore-chose," which is to say God loved/chose us in this salvific way beforehand, actually before the foundation of the world. And this is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 1:3-6...

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved."

Right?

Anyway, grace and peace to you, brother!
 
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Renniks

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I am on earth. All living mortals are. Those at Matt 7:22-23 think they are saved as well.
"For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus."

Hmmm .. seems like present tense to me.
 

Keiw

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Well, I would say that those Jesus is referring to there are those who, as of now, think they have no need of salvation. But at the final Judgment ~ which is what Jesus is talking about here (see Matthew 25:31-46, as it more fully fleshes out that event, which will happen shortly after Christ's return) ~ they will seek to justify themselves by saying what He says they will say in verse 22 (also Matthew 25:44). They will be rejected and sent away.

Grace and peace to you.


It clearly says there-They worked iniquity= practiced a sin.
 

Keiw

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"For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus."

Hmmm .. seems like present tense to me.

That speaks of the little flock( Luke 12:32) = the bride of Christ= 144,000 are bought from the earth. Apart of the first ressurection. To rule as kings on thrones beside Jesus-judging-Rev 1:6-Rev 20:4-6
 

robert derrick

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For Pete's sake, it states it right there - WHOM HE DID PREDESTINATE. What is your problem, are you so anti-Calvinist that it blinds you?
God's foreknowledge of the future, of all who would be saved, was in His mind. He is sovereign, knows all, so why would you limit his knowledge of anyone. He had a specific design of every single organism, down to the DNA, and allowed for sin to distort each and every cell or every organism and knew exactly what would prevail. Christ died for our sins before we were born. Can you grasp that? No. What do believe, that He didn't know the sins of the future generations or how it would all pan out? His plan is precise. Nobody can mess up His perfect plan. His foreknowledge contains all history up to this point and beyond to the New Heaven and New Earth. Otherwise, prophesy could never pan out as it has with hair-splitting accuracy. We can't conceive what God does as He does for several reasons: He is omniscient and we aren't. But also, He lives outside of our time domain, in a spiritual realm that we cannot understand. He is not confined to time as we know it so it is hard for us to understand. Calvin was wrong btw, he tried to explain how salvation works by putting God into a box. That was high minded, beyond his ability and ours. TULIP is flawed. Nevertheless, it is not totally false, there are parts of it that are true. Predestination is Biblical, it's just mysterious and we should leave it at that.
TULIP is flawed. Nevertheless, it is not totally false, there are parts of it that are true.

There of course are some true parts; however, the modern OSAS version foreknowing is a direct degenerate descendant of flawed predestination doctrine.

For Pete's sake, it states it right there - WHOM HE DID PREDESTINATE. What is your problem, are you so anti-Calvinist that it blinds you?

God did not predetermine who He would dwell in, but only what whom He dwells in would be conformed to: whom He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

Who is foreknown, but whom He foreknew is predestinated to be conformed to what, by commandment of God:

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Seeing only whom is predestined, without being predestined to what, is the error of OSAS today, which I do not believe Calvin intended, when he made up a flawed teaching of who is predestined, rather than what is predestined for them He foreknew.

His flaw of predestination of who comes from His flaw teaching of how God foreknows who.

God's foreknowing is not predetermining who would and who would not, but is by the omniscience of the Word to have already watched and seen all things come to pass from high above all heavens: the timeless place of God's omnipotence and being.

Properly understanding how God foreknow who, leads to properly understand what He predestines for whosoever that believes from the heart.

God's foreknowledge of the future, of all who would be saved, was in His mind.

How it came to be in His mind is the mystery of the Word that was in the beginning with God and was God, seeing all things from on high come to pass, even as they came to pass in heaven and earth.

The flaw is the carnal mind thinking God predetermined who would be saved, by making that determination in His mind alone: God doesn't just think things to come to pass.

He already knows the end, because He has already watched the end, and so foreknew it from the beginning, not because He already prethinked the end: We are not just the imagination of God's mind being made into reality.

We are not the video of God mind's made flesh, no more than Jesus Christ was created n the mind of 'Jehovah' and then made flesh.

He foreknows and so foresees, as the Scripture says (Gal 3:8), because He has seen and watched all things come to pass:

Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

And so the Word being with God from the beginning, is how God foreknew and foresaw who would and who would not: Not because He predetermined who in His mind.

Predestination is Biblical, it's just mysterious and we should leave it at that.

It is not predestination of Scripture that is at all mysterious: What all believers are predestined to be conformed to by commandment of Scripture, which is the image of His dear Son, and is His righteousness and true holiness. There is no mystery about that, except of course for the mystery of iniquity, with them that say they believe Him, yet do not believe they must obey Him even as He is righteous, and thus be conformed to His image.

The mystery from the beginning of the foundation of the world, is how God foreknew all things in creation from beginning to end, at the beginning of it all:

Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

The testimony of Jesus Christ is all things He has already seen in all creation from beginning to end, and so God with Him in the beginning foreknew it all: The Word scoped it all out as it came to pass.

For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Because He has seen all things already come to pass, while yet even watching at this time, His testimony of all things from beginning to the end, is therefore the spirit of prophecy, which He has written in Scripture for us to read and believe as true. He knows it is true, because He saw it happen even as it happens.

He has not written in Scripture all His testimony of all things He has already seen, because that would be those books the world itself could not contain. He has however written for us in Scripture by prophecy, all things needed for believers to answer His predestinated call to be saints and obtain eternal salvation.

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Our brethren in Christ that are now in heaven, now know all things from beginning to end, because they now have all the testimony Christ which He saw from beginning to end from on high:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And the rebuke of Scripture for us today on earth is not to fall into worshipping knowledge, as the Gnostics of old, not even all knowledge, but only to worship God, for knowledge in part is with us now, and all knowledge shall be for us having all the testimony of Jesus Christ, but without God Himself living within us, we are nothing:

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

God did not predetermine who He would dwell in, but only what whom He dwells in would be conformed to: whom He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.
 

Renniks

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That speaks of the little flock( Luke 12:32) = the bride of Christ= 144,000 are bought from the earth. Apart of the first ressurection. To rule as kings on thrones beside Jesus-judging-Rev 1:6-Rev 20:4-6
Nope, it's addressed to the church.
 

PinSeeker

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It clearly says there-They worked iniquity= practiced a sin.
Well, Jesus actually calls them a name of sorts... "workers of iniquity." It's "workers of lawlessness" in other translations. Even so, they are still, in Matthew 7:22, trying to justify themselves as having done the same things as those He will have just told, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..." (Matthew 25:34). You're misunderstanding that Matthew 7 passage... not terribly, but just a bit off. I agree that there will be what we call "false sons," people who think they are saved ~ and maybe many Christians now think are saved, actually ~ so I'm with you on that. But I think for the most part it will be folks who, right now, think they have no need of salvation. I don't think there's really any argument between us here.

Grace and peace to you.
 

PinSeeker

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Paul is very clear in Ephesians 1. In speaking to those in Ephesus who are in Christ, he said (wrote):

"...(God) predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." (vv.5-6)​

It is what it is. God calls who He calls "out of darkness into His marvelous light," as Peter puts it. "Foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is not merely "knew beforehand," but rather synonymous with "fore-loved," even "fore-chose." Again:

1. In the mere sense of knowing beforehand, God foreknows everybody and every thing. But Paul is talking about a particular group, a subset of all people, those who will be saved. So "those whom He foreknew" in Romans 8:29 obviously means far more than that he "looked through the corridors of time and saw who would choose Him."

2. The verb we translate to "know" here is in the Greek synonymous with "love" in the same sense as Adam knew his wife Eve, and she conceived Cain and Abel (Genesis 4). So "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is synonymous with "fore-loved" and even "fore-chose," which is to say God loved/chose us in this salvific way beforehand, sovereignly and distinguishingly, actually before the foundation of the world. And this is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 1:3-6. Here it is again:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved."

Grace and peace to all.
 

Keiw

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Nope, it's addressed to the church.

You have no clue obviously of why there is a little flock( Luke 12:32) and a great crowd which no man can number, proving the little flock are the ones mentioned at Rev 14:3, because they are numbered.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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however, the modern OSAS version foreknowing is a direct degenerate descendant of flawed predestination doctrine.
I adhere to OSAS. What is faith unless it is certain, a promise from God. Numerous scriptures claim we ARE AND HAVE BEEN SAVED AND WE HAVE THIS FAITH. THE HOLY SPIRIT SEALS OUR DESTINY. NO ONE CAN BREAK THAT SEAL. But you can live with an uncertain and fragile "maybe" salvation.
only what whom He dwells in would be conformed t
Only what whom ...? I remember diagraming sentences in the 4th grade. That one would be difficult.

Who is foreknown, but whom He foreknew is predestinated to be conformed to what, by commandment of God:
More screwy twisted leaning on your own understanding.
Like Calvin, YOU should leave this topic alone. YOU do not know what was in God's mind nor how He predestined us!!!

Seeing only whom is predestined, without being predestined to what, is the error of OSAS today,
OMG.
>>>You don't know what you are talking about.
 
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Keiw

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Well, Jesus actually calls them a name of sorts... "workers of iniquity." It's "workers of lawlessness" in other translations. Even so, they are still, in Matthew 7:22, trying to justify themselves as having done the same things as those He will have just told, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..." (Matthew 25:34). You're misunderstanding that Matthew 7 passage... not terribly, but just a bit off. I agree that there will be what we call "false sons," people who think they are saved ~ and maybe many Christians now think are saved, actually ~ so I'm with you on that. But I think for the most part it will be folks who, right now, think they have no need of salvation. I don't think there's really any argument between us here.

Grace and peace to you.


The problem is no man has the right to tell another-you are saved. He does not know. These teachers do that-2Corinthians 11:12-15
 

Keiw

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I adhere to OSAS. What is faith unless it is certain, a promise from God. Numerous scriptures claim we ARE AND HAVE BEEN SAVED AND WE HAVE THIS FAITH. THE HOLY SPIRIT SEALS OUR DESTINY. NO ONE CAN BREAK THAT SEAL. But you can live with an uncertain and fragile maybe salavation.

Only what whom ...? I remember diagraming sentences in the 4th grade. That one would be difficult.


More screwy twisted leaning on your own understanding.
Like Calvin? YOU should leave this topic alone. YOU do not know what was in God's mind nor how He predestined us!!!


OMG.
>>>You don't know what you are talking about.


Its a guarantee those listed here at Matt 7:22-23 believe osas. Its not truth. Do you think Judas is saved? Your teacher would have told him he was. Satan stood in the truth, then fell. Do you think he is saved? John 8:44
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Its a guarantee those listed here at Matt 7:22-23 believe osas. Its not truth. Do you think Judas is saved? Your teacher would have told him he was. Satan stood in the truth, then fell. Do you think he is saved? John 8:44
Matthew 7 in context was preaching to Jews in that passage. They were given the Law, the truth, but many rejected Christ. These are the ones who will say, "Lord, Lord did not we prophesy in your name ... and cast out demons?" The unbelieving gentiles did not know God, so they could not say those things. Jesus says I never knew you, meaning I did not have a relationship with you.
 

robert derrick

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I adhere to OSAS. What is faith unless it is certain, a promise from God. Numerous scriptures claim we ARE AND HAVE BEEN SAVED AND WE HAVE THIS FAITH. THE HOLY SPIRIT SEALS OUR DESTINY. NO ONE CAN BREAK THAT SEAL. But you can live with an uncertain and fragile "maybe" salvation.

Only what whom ...? I remember diagraming sentences in the 4th grade. That one would be difficult.


More screwy twisted leaning on your own understanding.
Like Calvin, YOU should leave this topic alone. YOU do not know what was in God's mind nor how He predestined us!!!


OMG.
>>>You don't know what you are talking about.
What is faith unless it is certain, a promise from God.

Faith of men, not of God. Certainly. Your dead faith, not the faith of Jesus.

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

No man is justified with God who does not live the faith of His dear Son, and is thus justified by doing the works of His righteousness.

Assured eternal salvation is only for them with faith unseen in the heart, being evidenced and justified by obedience to the faith seen by all.

I'm thinking dead faith alone don't do that. At all.

And so, you've certainly stated your certain salvation of your certain faith alone which is certainly dead without works justified of God.

But you can live with an uncertain and fragile "maybe" salvation.

Better than taking a dead faith alone to the grave. Certainly.

YOU do not know what was in God's mind nor how He predestined us!!!

By Scripture that certainly reveals to us exactly what is in the mind and heart of God.

You have stuff of your own mind and liking based upon a dead faith that Scripture certainly condemns.

And you've certainly made it clear you have no answer for what I've offered, and instead certainly say OMG!!!

YOU should leave this topic alone!!

Yeah, well. Not.:rolleyes:

I.e. you cant stop your ears and stone me as did the unbelieving Jews rushing Stephen, who was telling them all their works without faith were vain and and displeasing to God, which Paul preached. While you, being on the other side of folly, hate being told your faith alone is dead and not saved of God, as James preached.

And so far as leaving the topic alone. I started it. I was here first. You an leave any time you please. I will not be missing your sort at all.
 

Renniks

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You have no clue obviously of why there is a little flock( Luke 12:32) and a great crowd which no man can number, proving the little flock are the ones mentioned at Rev 14:3, because they are numbered.
The verses I quoted was addressed to the church. I have no in idea what you are talking about.
 

robert derrick

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I am on earth. All living mortals are. Those at Matt 7:22-23 think they are saved as well.
Amen brother. Stay on solid ground.

And now you have an understanding of the more truly mystical and delusional teachings of OSAS.

I haven't looked back for the post yet in their 'Grace' thread, but they do actually teach about being separated from the deeds of their bodies, so that God cannot judge their souls: their 'preserved souls' are seated in heavenly places, while their 'sinful bodies' remain down here on earth, going on doing what sinful bodies naturally do.

And so, they actually believe they are neither responsible for their salvation nor the sinful deeds of their bodies.

Sort of like heaven is one great sperm bank, where the newborns remain in stasis, awaiting their promised and unconditionally secured resurrected bodies.

I kid you not.

Our secured salvation is money in the bank!!

It reminds me of the Star trek episode of the brain modules looking for bodies to inhabit.